[Visum]

Fresh organ transplants delivered to a hospital near you. Maybe someday you will be able to pick out your donor and keep them alive until you are ready for transplant. In this way you can be ensured your organ is fresh the day of operation. This is revolting.


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“THE MAKERS of China’s first mobile execution van, a travelling caravan of death in which convicts are dispatched efficiently and cleanly by lethal injection, say sales are not huge but steady, and urge any foreign governments wishing to buy one to get in touch.”
“Lethal injection is a much cleaner procedure and use of the bus also makes it easier to extract organs from executed prisoners for transplant, with doctors and nurses on hand to make sure organs are transferred swiftly. This practice has been attacked as inhumane, although the government insists it takes place with permission from donors and their families.”


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“Makers of the death vans say the vehicles and injections are a civilized alternative to the firing squad, ending the life of the condemned more quickly, clinically and safely. The switch from gunshots to injections is a sign that China "promotes human rights now," says Kang Zhongwen, who designed the Jinguan Automobile death van in which "Devil" Zhang took his final ride.”
"I'm most proud of the bed. It's very humane, like an ambulance," Kang says. He points to the power-driven metal stretcher that glides out at an incline. "It's too brutal to haul a person aboard," he says. "This makes it convenient for the criminal and the guards."

[LaoTzu]

Am I supposed to be revolted?
The organs? Whatever... at least it goes for good use.

Barbaric? I've heard of worse.

All that being said, I despise the death-penalty. I just hate the us vs. them window dressing hiding the fact that in reality, there's very little difference between that BS China's up to, and the BS of "civilized" methods of administering the death penalty that we think we're so high and mighty for using....

The only difference being the 'arbitrary' appearance of this method of justice.
(which I am guessing is just that....an appearance....)



I don't care where it is, the death penalty is a failure of civilized people. I'd prefer we just put them in solitary for the rest of their lives.

[Visum]

Being revolted is really a personal issue. This wasn't meant to be a US against the Chinese thread, but since you brought it up.
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Population data provided by the U.S. Census Bureau, International Data Base.


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: ~1,338,612,968
China's yearly executions, 2007: ~470


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: ~307,212,123
USA's yearly executions, 2007: ~42

China has 4 times the US population and over 11 times the amount of executions.

[Brittle]

If these people are deserving of the death penalty to start with, I would hope it's because they've been proven guilty of committing some dreadful crime against their fellow man, in which case if they can provide healthy organs to save the life of someone else - all well and good. Perhaps it's the ultimate act of atonement.

I would just hope whatever they use for the injections doesn't contaminate the organs they are using.

[dogwoodlover]

	"The switch from gunshots to injections is a sign that China 'promotes human rights now,' says Kang Zhongwen, who designed the Jinguan Automobile death van"

Hahahaha.



The whole concept is just so evil and devious that I had to laugh. Driving around killing prisoners in vans? and then stealing their organs? Who thinks up this kind of stuff?

[Homini Lupus]

They seem vulnerable on the long run. Something that moves on road is relatively easy to blow up or delay.
But I also think that the explantation thing is not wrong per se, but the death penalty; personally I'm against it most of the times and would consider it only for some particular cases. But once you killed a man a corpse is just material.

[Undead Bonzi]

Originally Posted by Visum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Fresh organ transplants delivered to a hospital near you. Maybe someday you will be able to pick out your donor and keep them alive until you are ready for transplant. In this way you can be ensured your organ is fresh the day of operation. This is revolting. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. “THE MAKERS of China’s first mobile execution van, a travelling caravan of death in which convicts are dispatched efficiently and cleanly by lethal injection, say sales are not huge but steady, and urge any foreign governments wishing to buy one to get in touch.” “Lethal injection is a much cleaner procedure and use of the bus also makes it easier to extract organs from executed prisoners for transplant, with doctors and nurses on hand to make sure organs are transferred swiftly. This practice has been attacked as inhumane, although the government insists it takes place with permission from donors and their families.” To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. “Makers of the death vans say the vehicles and injections are a civilized alternative to the firing squad, ending the life of the condemned more quickly, clinically and safely. The switch from gunshots to injections is a sign that China "promotes human rights now," says Kang Zhongwen, who designed the Jinguan Automobile death van in which "Devil" Zhang took his final ride.” "I'm most proud of the bed. It's very humane, like an ambulance," Kang says. He points to the power-driven metal stretcher that glides out at an incline. "It's too brutal to haul a person aboard," he says. "This makes it convenient for the criminal and the guards."

April Fools anyone? Or at least one can hope that is the case.

PS, I know it isn't, I just wish it were.

[Visum]

	Originally Posted by Undead Bonzi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	April Fools anyone? Or at least one can hope that is the case. PS, I know it isn't, I just wish it were.

I wish it were too.
It appears there are some conflicting data about the number of executions by China. This article sites
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l, as having China with 1,718 executions in 2008.


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-Make sure you expand to read the entire article

Organ harvesting

"The presence of medical staff adds another dimension of paranoia to these traveling death chambers in the form of excessive organ harvesting by Chinese officials. The swift and sterile executions make it easier for medical attendants to retrieve use organs from prisoners for transplants.

Mr Wu believes that not only is this practice rife, but it has become something of an indicator as to how many people are actually executed each year in the communist country."

“In 2007, a Chinese government medical journal proudly announced that China had become the second biggest country in the world (after America) for organ transplants,” Wu said. “The medical community admitted that the majority of the organs are taken from executed prisoners, and China performed 13,000 organ transplants that year. So you can make an approximate guess from that number how many executions were carried out.”

OP-I would consider this being a leap of logic, but it does make you wonder.

[dogwoodlover]

I'm sure it won't be long before they start handing out death sentences like candy (if they aren't already). There's certainly a strong market incentive to do so.

[NiteRider]

In my opinion, you can't take human life no matter what they did. You can keep them confined and give them less facilities than given to those with lesser crimes, but no one has a right to take a life. When someone does take a life, he is sentenced to be killed. So should all judges be killed for passing the death sentence?

[dogwoodlover]

And juries probably.

The pretense is that only the government (which is of course the epitome of truth, justice, and equality) is capable of deciding who lives and who dies. Kind of like God.

[NZPixie]

I don't care, it does not repulse me at all. Its a good use of otherwise wasted bodies. I think the death penalty is certainly justified in some cases. But I live in a country where there is no death penalty and 'life in prison' means 10 years. If one of my family members was dying and needed a transplant i'd much rather they lived than some useless criminal whose life is being funded by taxpayers.

[eternaltriangle]

I want to work in China's government! I bet they have all sorts of cool human experiments going on too. Ethics are such a buzzkill.

[Visum]

Since ethics comes up in many discussions on this forum here are some general questions for the thread.

1. Does human life have value and if so can it be quantified?

2. In the name of life, would you allow a prisoner sentenced to death to stay alive until there was a need for their organs?

3. For maximum tissue life, would you execute the prisoner outside the hospital the day, or even hour before the organ transplant?

4. In circumstances with multiple people needing the same organ, would you allow an auction style system where the highest bidder gets the organ?

[Farmer Joe]

What happened to the good 'ol days when you went down to Mexico, and then woke up in a tub of ice without any kidneys? Now we have these "Death Vans" roving the streets... Things used to be so much better.

[Indy]

It reminds me of those Einsatzgruppen that used vans to gas Jews in 1940, before they came up with "Final Solution" extermination camps.

I am not against having a market in organs per se. Why have long waiting lists and people dying unnecessarily, if you could find people who would be willing to sell a kidney for ten thousand bucks. Just an efficient market transaction.

But I understand it is just really hard to get it to work effectively. You will get excesses and easily descends into nastiness. It would have to be heavily regulated.

From:
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"The current system is failing to meet the human needs of Americans, and you can tell it's failing to meet them because people are dying," says Newt Gingrich, a former Republican Speaker of the House and possible 2008 presidential candidate.

A regulated market in organs "is at least worth exploring," says Gingrich, who is now a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington.


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A market-based system for kidneys is “workable and defensible,” argued conference presenter Julio J. Elias, an economist at the State University of New York, Buffalo.

[Tristan]

Honestly, these vans are just making the best of a bad situation. I'll gladly answer your stinkin' questions though, Visum
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1. Does human life have value and if so can it be quantified?

Yes, human life has value. No, that value cannot be quantified with any semblance of ease or objectivity.


2. In the name of life, would you allow a prisoner sentenced to death to stay alive until there was a need for their organs?
and...
3. For maximum tissue life, would you execute the prisoner outside the hospital the day, or even hour before the organ transplant?

Absolutely not in principle-- that insults the victim of the crime. The death penalty is premised on the inherent justice of "a life for a life," because the loss of the victim's life deserves nothing less than a terrible, equal punishment. To impede, delay, or taint that justice for the sake of expedience defeats the entire reason for the death penalty.


4. In circumstances with multiple people needing the same organ, would you allow an auction style system where the highest bidder gets the organ?

Auction is the fairest way of bestowing the organs. Waiting list and lottery are distant seconds. I don't oppose them, though; they just aren't as fair.

[Visum]

Originally Posted by Tristan To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Honestly, these vans are just making the best of a bad situation. I'll gladly answer your stinkin' questions though, Visum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. 1. Does human life have value and if so can it be quantified? Yes, human life has value. No, that value cannot be quantified with any semblance of ease or objectivity. 2. In the name of life, would you allow a prisoner sentenced to death to stay alive until there was a need for their organs? and... 3. For maximum tissue life, would you execute the prisoner outside the hospital the day, or even hour before the organ transplant? Absolutely not in principle-- that insults the victim of the crime. The death penalty is premised on the inherent justice of "a life for a life," because the loss of the victim's life deserves nothing less than a terrible, equal punishment. To impede, delay, or taint that justice for the sake of expedience defeats the entire reason for the death penalty. 4. In circumstances with multiple people needing the same organ, would you allow an auction style system where the highest bidder gets the organ? Auction is the fairest way of bestowing the organs. Waiting list and lottery are distant seconds. I don't oppose them, though; they just aren't as fair.

LOL, my intent was to generate some dialogue and thought, thanks for answering them. Are they really stinking?
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[Storm]

This made me wonder, do other countries allow those facing the death penalty to donate their organs? Regardless of whether the death penalty itself is immoral, why wouldn't you let the prisoner donate their organs? Perhaps they see it as atonement for their sins, especially the kind of sins which would garner the death penalty.

[thod]

They just don't do it properly. The prisoners should be kept on a low fat, calorie restricted diet. Each day they must run 5 miles on a giant hamster wheel. This will ensure optimal organ health. Killing them is wasteful, why kill the prisoner when you currently only need a single eye. They should extract the organs on as needed basis. So you want an arm you cut an arm off and sew up his wound. Next you need a kidney you cut one out. The prisoners will keep their remaining organs fresh and ready for use in this way. The exercise regimes could be altered to reflect the gradual loss of body parts.

[Beulah]

Well I had Dogwoods reaction of insane giggling. Not at the subject which is repulsive, but at the preposterousness of the involved Officials trying to add positive spin to it. Next they'll be saying the alleged criminals are calling them to come round because they heard this great service now has Gordon Ramsay or something to provide a meal to die for. Or perhaps they'll park up outside hospitals seeking to entice the suicidal in. I'd bet numbers killed equal VIPs needing transplants.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

They just don't do it properly. The prisoners should be kept on a low fat, calorie restricted diet. Each day they must run 5 miles on a giant hamster wheel. This will ensure optimal organ health. Killing them is wasteful, why kill the prisoner when you currently only need a single eye. They should extract the organs on as needed basis. So you want an arm you cut an arm off and sew up his wound. Next you need a kidney you cut one out. The prisoners will keep their remaining organs fresh and ready for use in this way. The exercise regimes could be altered to reflect the gradual loss of body parts.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is satirical. If not, ...
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[Indy]

I found this on wiki's Capital Punishment in China:

In the past the government collected a "bullet fee" (子弹费) from the relatives of the condemned.

Capital punishment in China can be imposed on crimes against national symbols and treasures, such as theft of cultural relics and the killing of pandas.


You don't mess with the pandas!

[Grimstad]

Well at least they are recycling.
Going green. Possibly a little soylent but green none the less.

[LaoTzu]

	Originally Posted by Visum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. : ~1,338,612,968 China's yearly executions, 2007: ~470 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. : ~307,212,123 USA's yearly executions, 2007: ~42 China has 4 times the US population and over 11 times the amount of executions.

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It's not for lack of trying....