[chocky]

Inspired by the Make-up thread.

I'm perplexed. First and foremost I'm a mind. If I was pushed I would say that I am a mind learning to be human. I grasp the concept of feeling 'humanly'.

But to feel 'womanly'? What does this mean? (And not in terms of social behaviour, but of psychological - not cosmetic - make-up.)

[Hypomanic]

The way I see it is that the term 'womanly' was coined by society. I'm not sure there is one way to act. It's far better to just be yourself than to strive to conform into one role. I don't go out looking for 'manly' men or 'womanly' women to be my contacts. I look for genuine, intelligent, and similar minds. The term 'womanly' is of trivial value in essence.

[chocky]

I too look for what is genuine, and I guess I may be suspicious of 'womanly' as being a type of disguise worn on the outside. But what is actually happening within the mind's interior?

For me the term 'womanly' has no real weight or value, and I'd be tempted to call it a meaningless social construct, but evidently for many others it carries a significant psychological valency, and I can only wonder what it might mean to those who actually self-identify as womanly.

There must be some kernel, some psychological state, that the term adheres to and I am hoping others can describe some aspect of it. I'm curious - I want to know what is so different between psyches.

Can anyone understand and describe the cognizant state of 'womanly'?

[Jennywocky]

Can anyone understand and describe the cognizant state of 'manly'?

[blueback]

Womanly:
More qualifications in statements
Doesn't assume things are debateable
Attempts to generate concensus
Concerned with feelings, own and others
Finds it difficult to focus

Manly:
Statements are made without qualifications
Assumes everything is debateable
Attempts to dominate
Finds focus easy
Aggressive

Etc.

These aren't things I made up. These are well accepted results of management studies. There is a very real difference between how men act and how women act.

As I understand it, the key is that those descriptions aren't independant of each other. Women tend to want to build an agreement among all parties involved while men tend to want all parties to fall in behind them. Therefore, women tend to be more hesitant to declare that they are right while men are more than happy to say they're right and by extension to argue with anyone who doesn't agree.

I think most of the other stereotypes are socialized.

[Lucid]

I will be among the first to assert that while there are biological differences between men and women, we're all just human and we would do well to remember that. And that many of the differences are socially taught, not inherent.

Having said that, I would say that to feel either "womanly" or "manly" would mean to feel like an attractive member of whatever gender you happen to be. What that is, exactly, probably varies from person to person.

[banzai]

I think some are attributes that develop as a result of instincts, genetics, differences in chemical makeup, etc., and the rest are a result of these things being fostered by someone's environment.

The latter doesn't always happen, though.

[tiffytwotons]

Having recently used the word, I feel partly responsible .. When I say womanly, and I would because I was raised as the son my father never had, I guess I would mean...
And I've sat on this thought for a minute or two, I'm a little uncomfortable. I often feel sexless and when I feel womanly, or girlish better yet, it's not a feeling I can easily define. But when I feel strong and powerful I associate this with feeling manly. Wellnow, it looks like I've become a victim of societies ridiculous ideals. Damn.

[Tsuru]

	Originally Posted by Jennywocky To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Can anyone understand and describe the cognizant state of 'manly'?

I'd answer that, but I need to go to the garage and hang sheet rock, and then pound the brewski's until I can't feel feelings anymore. Also, GO LOCAL SPORTS TEAM!!!! *Flex Flex Flex* *Grunt Grunt Grunt*

... That's about all the insight I have on the topic. :P

[Laura_Palmer]

To me the feeling of being "womanly" only really comes out when I am interacting with a guy I am in an intimate relationship with. It probably means different things to different people, but to me it's associated with being submissive to a guy (the only person I would ever be submissive to).

[niffer]

It's when you act like you contain a uterus, and curves and stuff...how your mind is like your body. But that's just my intinctual part doing my thinking...

...I guess this is the kind of thinking you would need to use in order to figure this out though. Genderless, humanless thinking that only uses your reasoning would make this idea seem very trivial and impossible to define.

[Danisty]

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Womanly: More qualifications in statements Doesn't assume things are debateable Attempts to generate concensus Concerned with feelings, own and others Finds it difficult to focus

If this is the criteria, I'm not very good at being womanly.

[Solaris]

Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Womanly: More qualifications in statements Doesn't assume things are debateable Attempts to generate concensus Concerned with feelings, own and others Finds it difficult to focus Manly: Statements are made without qualifications Assumes everything is debateable Attempts to dominate Finds focus easy Aggressive Etc. These aren't things I made up. These are well accepted results of management studies. There is a very real difference between how men act and how women act. As I understand it, the key is that those descriptions aren't independant of each other. Women tend to want to build an agreement among all parties involved while men tend to want all parties to fall in behind them. Therefore, women tend to be more hesitant to declare that they are right while men are more than happy to say they're right and by extension to argue with anyone who doesn't agree. I think most of the other stereotypes are socialized.

I can agree that, perhaps, this is how the majority of each gender acts. However, I cannot agree that this is correctly defining what each gender truly is. Those characteristics come from a person's mind, and we all know that female NTs do not readily fit into social norms. Hell, most male NTs don't either (from what you all say). According to that definition, I, too, make a terrible woman.

I agree with others, in that being womanly is a much more internal, subjective definition. Sometimes I feel womanly when I am dressed in very feminine clothing. Sometimes I feel womanly when I am with a man I deeply love and respect. Being womanly is not about being weak, powerful, submissive, nor dominant for me. It is a passing feeling, and I probably just don't notice it most times.

[Antares]

I have no idea (I'm a girl), which is probably understandable... I scored close to zero on femininity, or so my test results say. I think that 'manly' and 'womanly' are from stereotypes that originated from the antiquity.

[Thistle]

Since gender stereotypes are culturally derived, there are surely many definitions of 'womanly' or 'manly' - which are contested, depending on an individuals opinion.

[Aldanga]

Womanly... hmmm. I would wilfully tackle this topic, but I have not much time. It will take some serious 'hammering out' to come up with a clear definition.

I shall attempt to answer the question tomorrow when I have more time.

[edalz]

I think "womanly" and "manly" and just names given to the generalizations made about people's behavior based on sex. I've taken many different tests about "which gender do you identify with?" (or something similar) and I almost always turn out to have a strong preference for "manly" stuff (yeah, I'm a woman).

[Ilikepepper]

While it is heavily influenced by social convention, my feelings of womanliness are associated with the following:
- willingness to be emotionally warm and expressive
- feeling that I am desirable to men
- an affirming and inclusive attitude (as opposed to competitive)
- a feeling of being 'in control' when dealing with other people in a social context. This means that I can manipulate people, but subtly.

Otherwise I feel girlish or sexless.

Note that the above is 'good' womanliness. 'Bad' womanliness happens when all the things above mask an attitude of one-upwomanship and competition (I'd rather people be honest about their intentions). So perhaps to be womanly is to be subtle and use social mechanics in getting things to work out your way.

Then changing your mind in the next second. :P

[rwyatt365]

	Originally Posted by edalz To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think "womanly" and "manly" and just names given to the generalizations made about people's behavior based on sex. I've taken many different tests about "which gender do you identify with?" (or something similar) and I almost always turn out to have a strong preference for "manly" stuff (yeah, I'm a woman).

Convenient tags used to short-cut social interactions. It helps us "fast-lane" our lives without having to delve into individual details.

"Oh, she's a 'girly-girl'...next!"

[Aldanga]

To be womanly... I have often pondered this very question. I cannot say I truly know what it is to be womanly for I have not known many true women. Most of the females with whom I've associated myself have been too immature to label as 'women'. Still, I believe I can propose a worthy, if concise, definition of what it means to be a woman.

Before I dive fully into the definition of womanhood, I must say that I do not believe that the gender-roles are 'society contrived'. Certainly they have been given much significance by society and altered at different points by the same, but I do not believe they originate from society. I believe they originate in the souls of mankind. They may not always appear because some do not realize how to bring to light these characteristics.

I can ask most any man--and sometimes ones whom I'd call 'pseudo-men'--and they know a real man when they see one. They really know, but they can't really say what being a real man means. I see similar things in women and girls. They know what a real woman looks like (in theory, at least), but don't know what it really means in their lives to be womanly. This is why i believe there is much more to the beginnings of manhood and womanhood than meets the eye.

• A woman is mature female, one who is safe in her own skin.

She knows who she is and she's not afraid of it. I am not envisioning one who is obnoxious and arrogant; who I see is actually very humble in practice. By humble I don't mean demeaning to herself or overly praising of others. I mean to say that she accepts her faults as well as her talents. She understands what she can do and where she is limited. This is possibly, along with the next point, are what most make a woman attractive to a man. It's the confidence in herself and acceptance of reality. No man can resist that.

• A woman must understand she is beautiful.

When a woman thinks--and truly knows--she is beautiful she really becomes beautiful. I've seen this numerous times throughout my life and it's been extremely evident. A plain girl can become as attractive as the most gorgeous Hollywood star. Along with this understanding, a woman is one who grooms herself with an understanding of her beauty and tries to accentuate this beauty. This can be in dresses and skirts or t-shirts and jean or jerseys and basketball shorts. It's all about the personality of the woman and how she highlights that beauty with her dress and make-up, if she wears any.

• A woman treats others as valuable and does her best to encourage.

Some of you might disagree with me on this point and that is alright. You are wrong. A personality type does not define the person. The person defines the person. A man makes his own choices and those may not always reflect his desires or natural inclinations. I believe every one can be encouraging and it is the job of all to give encouragement at some point or another to those who really need it. Can you think of a time when someone's encouragement really picked you up when you were frustrated and gave that little bit of energy to continue on toward greatness? I believe we all should return this favor.

In the life of a woman, her main encouragement should be toward her man. Her words can make him as Hercules or destroy him. He demands her respect, desires her love and worships her words. This is one area where I find many women failing. They are cutting and demeaning to an extreme. Many men understand smack-talk and sarcasm and use it joyfully, but there is a point where that starts to tear at the skin and dig down into the soul, leaving the hollow shell of what was once a confident man. This is where the real problem often starts in a relationship.



That's all I've got for now. Of course, there are minor exceptions to these rules in how they are implemented and to what extent. Still, I think this pretty much covers my idea of a woman. I'd love to hear your responses and take you all up in debate.

[Solaris]

	Originally Posted by Aldanga To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To be womanly... I have often pondered this very question. I cannot say I t A woman is mature female, one who is safe in her own skin. A woman must understand she is beautiful. A woman treats others as valuable and does her best to encourage.

Excellent, I agree with almost your whole post (though didn't see the need to repost the *entire* thing). You put much of what I think into words quite well, kudos to you.

[rwyatt365]

Originally Posted by Aldanga To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[COLOR=black][FONT=Symbol]· [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black]A woman is mature female, one who is safe in her own skin.[/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Symbol]· [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black]A woman must understand she is beautiful.[/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Symbol]· [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black]A woman treats others as valuable and does her best to encourage.[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]Some of you might disagree with me on this point and that is alright. You are wrong. A personality type does not define the person. The person defines the person. A man makes his own choices and those may not always reflect his desires or natural inclinations. I believe every one can be encouraging and it is the job of all to give encouragement at some point or another to those who really need it. Can you think of a time when someone's encouragement really picked you up when you were frustrated and gave that little bit of energy to continue on toward greatness? I believe we all should return this favor.[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]In the life of a woman, her main encouragement should be toward her man. Her words can make him as Hercules or destroy him. He demands her respect, desires her love and worships her words. This is one area where I find many women failing. They are cutting and demeaning to an extreme. Many men understand smack-talk and sarcasm and use it joyfully, but there is a point where that starts to tear at the skin and dig down into the soul, leaving the hollow shell of what was once a confident man. This is where the real problem often starts in a relationship.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]Aldanga, thank you for this well thought out response. Like Solaris, I applaud you for this post. I'd like to dwell somewhat on the third point that you made, only to say that this is a pet peeve of mine concerning many women that I have had relationships with. I won't say that it's necessarily a "woman-thing", but should apply equally to men and women. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]It has been my experience that the women I have dealt with have in no way been encouraging. In fact, it seemed that it was their goal in life to discourage and attack any flaw or weakness in their partner. I don't expect never-ending adulation, but never-ending criticism was not called for either. I've heard all of the "for your own good", "constructive criticism", "it'll make you stronger" catch phrases that are supposed to soften the blow – but the fact is…they don’t. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]My analogy of this phenomenon is of a person that peeks their head out of their doorway only to be cracked over the head with a baseball bat. Every day, the stick their head out, and every day they get smacked over the head. It won't take too many repetitions of this for the peeker to stop sticking their head out of the window. They will (in the simplest cases) either stay indoors, or find another exit point (one, preferably without a bat-wielder at it). The man tries something ("sticks his head out") and gets whacked by biting comments from his partner. He repeats and gets the same treatment. Eventually he shuts down, or goes elsewhere.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]The constant onslaught of negativism and criticism is wearing on the spirit and soul. I've asked the question several times, "if you wanted a man, why do you treat him like a bad dog?", and having done so, how do you expect him not to act like a whipped puppy when you're done? It's amazing how many women there are that verbally, emotionally, or mentally castrate their partners and then wonder why he acts like he doesn't have balls. You created him, now live with it.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]Men are not exempt from this scenario either. I'm just commenting on this from my point of view.[/COLOR]

[Solaris]

Originally Posted by rwyatt365 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[COLOR=black]Aldanga, thank you for this well thought out response. Like Solaris, I applaud you for this post. I'd like to dwell somewhat on the third point that you made, only to say that this is a pet peeve of mine concerning many women that I have had relationships with. I won't say that it's necessarily a "woman-thing", but should apply equally to men and women. [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]It has been my experience that the women I have dealt with have in no way been encouraging. In fact, it seemed that it was their goal in life to discourage and attack any flaw or weakness in their partner. I don't expect never-ending adulation, but never-ending criticism was not called for either. I've heard all of the "for your own good", "constructive criticism", "it'll make you stronger" catch phrases that are supposed to soften the blow – but the fact is…they don’t. [/COLOR]

In a relationship with an ISFP, I ended it when I realized I was sort of doing this. I tried to explain to him that there actually wasn't anything truly defective about him, just that we weren't compatible. I didn't want a door mat, I wanted a man. Probably the most F tendency I have, is the desire for people to be themselves -- their true, genuine, unfiltered selves-- and be accepted for it. The reason though, is that it just makes more sense to embrace your strengths, acknowledge your weaknesses, and build off the two. To me, this can only happen when you really acknowledging who you are. I tried not being myself, it never goes well. I can't be "less" me, as then I become somebody else.

To bring this back on topic. That somebody else I tried to be was a more traditional woman. I'm not, and I'm never going to be. I can do traditional things, but would only do them because it's what I want to do. I have never felt the need to fit into societal constructs. I like what I like, I know what it is (usually) and I pursue it.

[Aldanga]

	Originally Posted by rwyatt365 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[COLOR=black]Aldanga, thank you for this well thought out response. Like Solaris, I applaud you for this post. I'd like to dwell somewhat on the third point that you made, only to say that this is a pet peeve of mine concerning many women that I have had relationships with. I won't say that it's necessarily a "woman-thing", but should apply equally to men and women. [/COLOR]

Thank you, both you and Solaris, for your acknowledgement. It is much appreciated. This topic, personal identity within the sexes, has been a concern of mine for a couple of years and I've dedicated much thought and analysis to it.

I believe you to be very correct in your first assessment. That is actually a point toward which I was leaning. It is necessary for both women and men to be encouraging; but, seeing this thread being on womanhood, I decided to make small point of that and continue on with the main purpose of describing a woman.

I have experienced much what you are referencing with regard to destructive women. That is the largest issue relationships in this day and age face. You cannot retain a strong relationship when there is not goodwill between the parties, much less respect and love. Extreme and destructive criticism destroys much--if not all--goodwill.

I have yet to decide, but my thought on the cause of such criticism is this: women believe they need to be strong. They have to be able to always defend themselves. It may include hurting other people, especially male partners; but they'll understand, right? Aren't men all about survival and being strong?

This is the point that women--and I use the term loosely--often overly-emphasize: that men are all for strength and character. While this may be somewhat true, men want their women also to be delicate. That has to do with the whole 'saving the princess from the castle' desire of men. In the same line, strength and character are not made evidenced by destruction of another individual to save yourself, such as the demeaning of men by women or vice versa. I'd say in one sense character and, more deeply, love are destruction of one's self to save another individual. This happens via thoughtful and intentional personal sacrifice.

[blueeyedsusan]

Womanly means being really glad to be able to have multiple orgasms. It is not being a "barbie" doll or becoming anyone perceptions of what is "womanly"