12-Step Meetings Confrontation.

**Not2bforgot10** · 02-05-2009, 07:38 PM

I am writing everyone tonight to see what you think about 12 step meetings. After the experience I had tonight, I am feeling very frustrated and in need of condolence.

I have been attending an online program (stepchat.com) for a while now and decided to share a concern tonight that was very close to my heart, and apparently the administrator/moderator of the room/site did not like the controversial topic i brought up and blocked my IP address. I can now no longer assess the site and am restricted in all areas.

This is what I shared tonight in the chat:

I am genuinely concerned about those who are actively being
abused who attend al-anon (for support) and are just taught to
"detach;" that the qualifier has a 'disease' that they can't
control. This does not provide much hope
for the individual (‘victim’ at this point) who is being abused, NOR is it demonstrating
to the victim that that the qualifier should be held RESPONSIBLE for his/her actions
(behavior); rather, it would seem as though it is providing a justification instead.

Obviously if we have had to “detach” to begin with then it is implied that something is wrong. Detachment, by general characterization is a
means at gaining perspective. It is a tool used to help us step back and see
our situation more clearly. I think
that it can be dangerous however if not explained properly. I feel like, in this case, it can be used as
an excuse for inaction, which can pose a serious threat to the victim themselves.

Lets say that I’m in an abusive relationship with Eric who’s
an alcoholic. I go to al-anon and am
taught to “detach;” moreover, that Eric has a disease that he cannot control. (This is impounded into al-anoner’s minds
again and again: “Alcoholism is a
disease,” etc etc; we must ‘forgive’ the alcoholic, etc). Basically al-anon has taught me that Eric is
not responsible for his disease (actions
included) and that my best bet/solution would be to just “detach.” Since al-anon cannot provide SOLUTIONS (offer help0, no one would legitimately be able to help this
desperate individual who rightfully deserves help. The individual would not be advised to seek
further help (ie: outside al-anon) since solution-offering is denied (It is
against rule # ___).

So what happens is that the victim keeps coming back to al-anon
for support, in search of safety and understanding; however, they are not getting
the true help that they need. Al-anon
themselves would be acting as an enabler for this individual by avoiding the
real issue. In al-anon we are taught not
to be in denial and ways of undoing this, etc, yet by not offering proper
advice to an individual when necessary, we are going against our very own best
judgment and putting an individual in harm.
Argument could be made over whether or not an organization (al-anon
itself and its creators) could be responsible for endangering an individual once
the individual enters its premise.

If anything, the victim is being mislead and harmed through
going to al-anon. I am proposing that
the dynamics of abuse be taught in these meetings and an awareness surrounding
the issue be created.

I think it's funny how I bring this up, openly and honestly, and I am kicked out of a chat forum! These groups are supposed to be supportive... I was under the impression that we are allowed to share our feelings. Why was I kicked out just because I brought up a legit concern about the meeting itself?

Rudy · 02-05-2009, 07:58 PM

12-stepping is bullshit. Anything that denies personal responsibility is. And there is no good evidence that 12-stepping actually works any better than individuals quitting on there own, in the long term.

I'm sorry for your experience.

That is all.

**Not2bforgot10** · 02-05-2009, 08:09 PM

	Originally Posted by RudyHenkel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	12-stepping is bullshit. Anything that denies personal responsibility is. And there is no good evidence that 12-stepping actually works any better than individuals quitting on there own, in the long term. I'm sorry for your experience. That is all.

It's okay. I normally enjoy 12-step for the support and the sharing. They offer a lot of good wisdom; however, I was appalled at how I could not share something controversial that was part of the tradition. Some people defended it like it was God or something, never stopping once to question it. I think that all things worth considering should be questioned, but that's just me. I am just really disappointed.

**pletharoe** · 02-06-2009, 03:24 AM

I agree, everything should be questioned. Everything can be improved upon. For you and me, 12 steps appears to be a gimmick, a facade, an excuse. But we only represent 1-2% of the population. Many other people will respond well to this type of "therapy" and who are we to argue about that?

It's a shame that the moderators of that site were not open minded enough to allow the discussion you proposed. However, there is a time and a place for everything. You made a compelling argument which could jeopardise the success of other people's recovery through 12 steps.

**Freedom Geek** · 02-06-2009, 03:34 AM

I pretty much agree with Penn & Teller.
They have a show on the subject and I believe it's on youtube in 3 parts. I don't know if I can post it here so I won't

Rudy · 02-06-2009, 03:46 AM

	Originally Posted by Freedom Geek To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I pretty much agree with Penn & Teller. They have a show on the subject and I believe it's on youtube in 3 parts. I don't know if I can post it here so I won't

QFT.

Yes, I made an oblique reference to this with my first sentence, but you should definitely check out said video.

**Harmony** · 02-06-2009, 08:09 AM

So al-anon tells you to detach and that they have a disease that they can't control, meanwhile AA meetings and the 12 step tell you that you can control it if you follow the steps... Sounds like these two programs need to communicate their approach to each other...
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I wouldn't be terribly upset about them banning and blocking you, surely if you found one site you can find another one. Possibly one where people are more open minded...

**Not2bforgot10** · 02-06-2009, 08:34 AM

	Originally Posted by Freedom Geek To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I pretty much agree with Penn & Teller. They have a show on the subject and I believe it's on youtube in 3 parts. I don't know if I can post it here so I won't

What's the show about? The steps?

**Freedom Geek** · 02-06-2009, 09:02 AM

	Originally Posted by Not2bforgot10 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What's the show about? The steps?

It's about 12 step programs and how they don't work.

**Not2bforgot10** · 02-06-2009, 09:07 AM

Next day: Yeah, I don't really know what to say anymore... I am still hurt. I just tried getting onto the site, and it says "Access denied to your IP address." I'm really upset that people can't face the truth and that I brought up a LEGIT concern and they wanted to just dismiss it and continue being in denial... isn't one of the POINTS in 12-step to NOT deny?! ...to RECOGNIZE our denial?! (Sorry if I am yelling). Really though... how hypocritical! Wow, talk about lack of self-awareness... It's like, "Hmm, lets just stay in our little 'circle...' our 12-step group and 'pretend' everything is okay; lets not question the litature even when a legit concern has been brought up... lets just keep going... lets not worry about anyone else.'" Well, I am sorry (sarcasm) that I am worried about other people, similar to myself, going into this program the way I did and harming themselves!

Does everyone sort of get what I'm saying, and what I'm upset about? I think that every voice should be heard; we should never deny anyone the RIGHT to speak. Just because we don't like to hear something, does NOT mean that it should be ignored. "Our common welfare comes first" 12-step says... Okay, fine, and I was ginuinely looking out for the common welfare of members! God forbid I say it like it is, rawly... but honestly and nicely!

That's the thing... I have been going to face-to-face 12-step groups over and over and you honestly can't say anything negative or members look down on you. You can't share your *true* feelings... they get upset, because (sarcasm), remember, the "common welfare" comes first.

Hell, all my life I've felt like I've had to shut up... like I've just had to keep silent. I am NOT going to do that anymore. It's not fair. And it hurts.... literally, it hurts my heart, and it is not right. In order to heal, I believe we must get to the ROOT of the pain... I often feel like 12-step sugar coats it... they just gloss over it... it's like "Yes, all we can share is POSITIVE wisdom!" What about the negative, which is JUST as valid?! You know? You must balance both negative AND positive... it seems color, candy-coated. I am really upset.

**Harmony** · 02-06-2009, 09:11 AM

People don't understand that in order to get to a POSITIVE place you have to dispel the NEGATIVE.... It would appear that they have a false sense that they are over coming there problems, when in reality it sounds like they are just covering them up.

**Not2bforgot10** · 02-06-2009, 09:42 AM

	Originally Posted by Kymbirleigh To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	People don't understand that in order to get to a POSITIVE place you have to dispel the NEGATIVE.... It would appear that they have a false sense that they are over coming there problems, when in reality it sounds like they are just covering them up.

I know, right? I hate that it's so candy, sugar-coated, and unfortunately it's been like that at just about EVERY meeting I've been to. It's like people don't want to hear it (reality) like it is; rather, some "wishy" tale. When someone shares their story, honestly and reveals the personal in terms of darker emotions, they get frightened and avoid the person and their own issues altogether. I can't tell you how many meetings I have been to where I was cut off or told that I must speak with a "sponsor" about my issues b/c I'm not supporting the "common welfare" of others. My issues are very real, and I am not expecting anyone to fix them or giving off that impression... it's just that they're so explicit people cannot deal with them. But it's a fact and a hard reality of life, and I choose (honestly) not to avoid it. It would be nice if everyone could do the same. Unfortunately they can't, but the least they can do is allow me to speak.

"Hope," "Strength," and "Courage." (I question now). ...and I ask, "Will fear continue to permeate our 12-step families?"

I want to shed light on the issue, starting with myself and my own personal experience. I am -willing- to reveal... the truth... my personal truth.

Do not silence me.

**kosh** · 02-06-2009, 10:26 AM

I would be really pissed off too. You gave them your time and your thought out legitimate concerns, and they blow you off like you're some nuisance. I hate how people can be so dense, especially those put in a position of power.

**Vagrant** · 02-06-2009, 03:56 PM

They're not worth your time, frankly. If they're just gonna brush you under the rug, then there's no point to bothering with them. Let them suffer in their delusions.

**Not2bforgot10** · 02-06-2009, 04:19 PM

Yeah, but we all want to belong to some degree or another... I mean, I do... I want a group to be a part of, and for the most part, I do relate to them... and I certainly care about them; I'm just really hurt b/c I've been dispelled from the group and now I have no way of contacting anyone to get back in. Worst of all, I do not know what I did "wrong." I want an explanation and feel entitled to one. I spoke my truth and it was rejected. I was dejected from the group.

**Muumeh** · 02-06-2009, 05:39 PM

I think it's perfectly normal for you to feel hurt and that you want an explanation. However, seeing how they rejected you it might be unlikely that you'll get the answers you want. While you can continue to try to find a way to get in touch with them and ask for explanation, it'd be good if you ask yourself if it really is worth of the effort. What I mean is that they might continue ignoring you or downright attack your views if they decide to response.

What happened is sad, but I hope you realize there are other groups/people who can give you the support and feeling that you belong in other places as well. You might want to start looking them instead of trying to get back on the group that rejected you.

02-05-2009, 07:38 PM	#1
Not2bforgot10 Banned MBTI: INXJ Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 56	I am writing everyone tonight to see what you think about 12 step meetings. After the experience I had tonight, I am feeling very frustrated and in need of condolence. I have been attending an online program (stepchat.com) for a while now and decided to share a concern tonight that was very close to my heart, and apparently the administrator/moderator of the room/site did not like the controversial topic i brought up and blocked my IP address. I can now no longer assess the site and am restricted in all areas. This is what I shared tonight in the chat: I am genuinely concerned about those who are actively being abused who attend al-anon (for support) and are just taught to "detach;" that the qualifier has a 'disease' that they can't control. This does not provide much hope for the individual (‘victim’ at this point) who is being abused, NOR is it demonstrating to the victim that that the qualifier should be held RESPONSIBLE for his/her actions (behavior); rather, it would seem as though it is providing a justification instead. Obviously if we have had to “detach” to begin with then it is implied that something is wrong. Detachment, by general characterization is a means at gaining perspective. It is a tool used to help us step back and see our situation more clearly. I think that it can be dangerous however if not explained properly. I feel like, in this case, it can be used as an excuse for inaction, which can pose a serious threat to the victim themselves. Lets say that I’m in an abusive relationship with Eric who’s an alcoholic. I go to al-anon and am taught to “detach;” moreover, that Eric has a disease that he cannot control. (This is impounded into al-anoner’s minds again and again: “Alcoholism is a disease,” etc etc; we must ‘forgive’ the alcoholic, etc). Basically al-anon has taught me that Eric is not responsible for his disease (actions included) and that my best bet/solution would be to just “detach.” Since al-anon cannot provide SOLUTIONS (offer help0, no one would legitimately be able to help this desperate individual who rightfully deserves help. The individual would not be advised to seek further help (ie: outside al-anon) since solution-offering is denied (It is against rule # ___). So what happens is that the victim keeps coming back to al-anon for support, in search of safety and understanding; however, they are not getting the true help that they need. Al-anon themselves would be acting as an enabler for this individual by avoiding the real issue. In al-anon we are taught not to be in denial and ways of undoing this, etc, yet by not offering proper advice to an individual when necessary, we are going against our very own best judgment and putting an individual in harm. Argument could be made over whether or not an organization (al-anon itself and its creators) could be responsible for endangering an individual once the individual enters its premise. If anything, the victim is being mislead and harmed through going to al-anon. I am proposing that the dynamics of abuse be taught in these meetings and an awareness surrounding the issue be created. I think it's funny how I bring this up, openly and honestly, and I am kicked out of a chat forum! These groups are supposed to be supportive... I was under the impression that we are allowed to share our feelings. Why was I kicked out just because I brought up a legit concern about the meeting itself?
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02-05-2009, 07:58 PM	#2
Rudy Administrator MBTI: INfJ Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 21,722	12-stepping is bullshit. Anything that denies personal responsibility is. And there is no good evidence that 12-stepping actually works any better than individuals quitting on there own, in the long term. I'm sorry for your experience. That is all.
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02-06-2009, 03:24 AM	#4
pletharoe New Member [01%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 44	I agree, everything should be questioned. Everything can be improved upon. For you and me, 12 steps appears to be a gimmick, a facade, an excuse. But we only represent 1-2% of the population. Many other people will respond well to this type of "therapy" and who are we to argue about that? It's a shame that the moderators of that site were not open minded enough to allow the discussion you proposed. However, there is a time and a place for everything. You made a compelling argument which could jeopardise the success of other people's recovery through 12 steps.
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02-06-2009, 03:34 AM	#5
Freedom Geek Member [30%] MBTI: INTx Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,228	I pretty much agree with Penn & Teller. They have a show on the subject and I believe it's on youtube in 3 parts. I don't know if I can post it here so I won't
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02-06-2009, 08:09 AM	#7
Harmony Core Member [172%] MBTI: ISFP Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 6,912	So al-anon tells you to detach and that they have a disease that they can't control, meanwhile AA meetings and the 12 step tell you that you can control it if you follow the steps... Sounds like these two programs need to communicate their approach to each other... To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I wouldn't be terribly upset about them banning and blocking you, surely if you found one site you can find another one. Possibly one where people are more open minded...
Harmony is offline post a comment

02-06-2009, 09:07 AM	#10
Not2bforgot10 Banned MBTI: INXJ Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 56	Next day: Yeah, I don't really know what to say anymore... I am still hurt. I just tried getting onto the site, and it says "Access denied to your IP address." I'm really upset that people can't face the truth and that I brought up a LEGIT concern and they wanted to just dismiss it and continue being in denial... isn't one of the POINTS in 12-step to NOT deny?! ...to RECOGNIZE our denial?! (Sorry if I am yelling). Really though... how hypocritical! Wow, talk about lack of self-awareness... It's like, "Hmm, lets just stay in our little 'circle...' our 12-step group and 'pretend' everything is okay; lets not question the litature even when a legit concern has been brought up... lets just keep going... lets not worry about anyone else.'" Well, I am sorry (sarcasm) that I am worried about other people, similar to myself, going into this program the way I did and harming themselves! Does everyone sort of get what I'm saying, and what I'm upset about? I think that every voice should be heard; we should never deny anyone the RIGHT to speak. Just because we don't like to hear something, does NOT mean that it should be ignored. "Our common welfare comes first" 12-step says... Okay, fine, and I was ginuinely looking out for the common welfare of members! God forbid I say it like it is, rawly... but honestly and nicely! That's the thing... I have been going to face-to-face 12-step groups over and over and you honestly can't say anything negative or members look down on you. You can't share your true feelings... they get upset, because (sarcasm), remember, the "common welfare" comes first. Hell, all my life I've felt like I've had to shut up... like I've just had to keep silent. I am NOT going to do that anymore. It's not fair. And it hurts.... literally, it hurts my heart, and it is not right. In order to heal, I believe we must get to the ROOT of the pain... I often feel like 12-step sugar coats it... they just gloss over it... it's like "Yes, all we can share is POSITIVE wisdom!" What about the negative, which is JUST as valid?! You know? You must balance both negative AND positive... it seems color, candy-coated. I am really upset.
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02-06-2009, 09:11 AM	#11
Harmony Core Member [172%] MBTI: ISFP Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 6,912	People don't understand that in order to get to a POSITIVE place you have to dispel the NEGATIVE.... It would appear that they have a false sense that they are over coming there problems, when in reality it sounds like they are just covering them up.
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02-06-2009, 10:26 AM	#13
kosh Member [07%] MBTI: INTj Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 314	I would be really pissed off too. You gave them your time and your thought out legitimate concerns, and they blow you off like you're some nuisance. I hate how people can be so dense, especially those put in a position of power. Last edited by kosh; 02-06-2009 at 03:40 PM.
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02-06-2009, 03:56 PM	#14
Vagrant Core Member [155%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 6,225	They're not worth your time, frankly. If they're just gonna brush you under the rug, then there's no point to bothering with them. Let them suffer in their delusions.
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02-06-2009, 04:19 PM	#15
Not2bforgot10 Banned MBTI: INXJ Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 56	Yeah, but we all want to belong to some degree or another... I mean, I do... I want a group to be a part of, and for the most part, I do relate to them... and I certainly care about them; I'm just really hurt b/c I've been dispelled from the group and now I have no way of contacting anyone to get back in. Worst of all, I do not know what I did "wrong." I want an explanation and feel entitled to one. I spoke my truth and it was rejected. I was dejected from the group.
Not2bforgot10 is offline post a comment

02-06-2009, 05:39 PM	#16
Muumeh Veteran Member [87%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 3,507	I think it's perfectly normal for you to feel hurt and that you want an explanation. However, seeing how they rejected you it might be unlikely that you'll get the answers you want. While you can continue to try to find a way to get in touch with them and ask for explanation, it'd be good if you ask yourself if it really is worth of the effort. What I mean is that they might continue ignoring you or downright attack your views if they decide to response. What happened is sad, but I hope you realize there are other groups/people who can give you the support and feeling that you belong in other places as well. You might want to start looking them instead of trying to get back on the group that rejected you.
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