[Night]

(Some time ago, I posted this thread in a similarly-minded forum. I'm curious to see how others feel.)


I was watching a Charles Manson documentary earlier today and came upon an interesting problem.

In his interview, Manson described indoctrination techniques he used to control his clan. Sometimes the strategies involved desensitization behaviors (anonymous sexual relations; forced separation of mothers and children; killing of animals). More often that not, Manson stated he would focus on exploiting the vulnerabilities of individual members relative to their upbringing. In doing so, he could increase the "psychological saturation" of his influence.

When questioned as to process, Manson stated he would encourage people to realize -- not avoid -- feelings of despair, misery and agony that stemmed from destructive childhood experiences. He would then urge his followers to galvanize their (repressed) negativity into something cohesive so that their pain would not be fundamentally in control of their actions.

Obviously, his final actions run divergent from his general techniques, yet his logic has a peculiar harmony...

What do you think? In embracing psychological pain, do we gain a certain measure of control over it?

How valuable is hatred?

[Solaris]

I have found that any measure of acknowledging my strongest emotions tends to take away some of their power. For me, this works, because I analyze why I have the emotion, what exactly caused it (the underlying stuff, not always the obvious event), and how it has affected my actions up to now. In doing this, I gain a greater understanding of myself, and how to control/understand my emotions.

I have been known to use some of these things to drive myself on when I need to. However, doubt can drive me further than hatred. Hatred makes me stop and want to think too much.

[Night]

Originally Posted by Solaris To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I have found that any measure of acknowledging my strongest emotions tends to take away some of their power. For me, this works, because I analyze why I have the emotion, what exactly caused it (the underlying stuff, not always the obvious event), and how it has affected my actions up to now. In doing this, I gain a greater understanding of myself, and how to control/understand my emotions. I have been known to use some of these things to drive myself on when I need to. However, doubt can drive me further than hatred. Hatred makes me stop and want to think too much.

I like your pattern of logic - in striving to understand fragile emotional states; we can work to erode their influence. To take it a step further, do you find that this strategy has consequently performed to expectation?

I bolded your last statement because of the relationship Intuitives maintain with Thinking. Although the presumption that your "Thinking" and "thinking" processes are identical might be slightly dismissive, do you find that "over-thinking" can serve to intensify negative emotions and/or graduate your sentiment into an escalated category (annoyance > anger > rage)?

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Night To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

(Some time ago, I posted this thread in a similarly-minded forum. I'm curious to see how others feel.) I was watching a Charles Manson documentary earlier today and came upon an interesting problem. In his interview, Manson described indoctrination techniques he used to control his clan. Sometimes the strategies involved desensitization behaviors (anonymous sexual relations; forced separation of mothers and children; killing of animals). More often that not, Manson stated he would focus on exploiting the vulnerabilities of individual members relative to their upbringing. In doing so, he could increase the "psychological saturation" of his influence. When questioned as to process, Manson stated he would encourage people to realize -- not avoid -- feelings of despair, misery and agony that stemmed from destructive childhood experiences. He would then urge his followers to galvanize their (repressed) negativity into something cohesive so that their pain would not be fundamentally in control of their actions. Obviously, his final actions run divergent from his general techniques, yet his logic has a peculiar harmony... What do you think? In embracing psychological pain, do we gain a certain measure of control over it? How valuable is hatred?

I do not think we need to spend a great deal of time considering the value of Manson as guru. If the results are abysmal, need we really spend a great deal of time considering the merits of the philosophy from a purely abstract perspective? Manson was more interested in mind-fucking and controlling his people than helping them.

In regards to your point about embracing pain, there may be some merit in this. Acknowledging that you're hurt, depressed, in pain, etc can probably allow you to gain some control over these feelings. However, it seems a tad silly to do things to gain control over events likely to be less painful than the events practiced to gain control of these events.

I do not think hatred is valuable because it clouds judgement.

[Night]

	Originally Posted by Henry To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I do not think we need to spend a great deal of time considering the value of Manson as guru. If the results are abysmal, need we really spend a great deal of time considering the merits of the philosophy from a purely abstract perspective? Manson was more interested in mind-fucking and controlling his people than helping them.

I think you may have missed my point.

[Lucid]

I'd say it's as valuable as any other emotion. It all depends on what you use it for.
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[Lights]

The essence of hatred is to divide yourself from someone or something else. You forever lose any of the benefit you could have gained from the experience of whatever you have become divided from. It's necessary as a grouping mechanism, but it has no benefit for an individual beyond the sense of belonging it can instill when one finds others who share the same feeling. It deludes a person from seeing objectively and rationally, and eventually corrupts a person's empathy with seeds of apathy and stagnation.

[Meyer]

I would say that I have grown most from some of my most "painful" experiences. I think it is due to the fact that the emotions were so unfamiliar that I was forced to open up to seek understanding. I could not just simply accept the pain without trying to understand it and take away some lesson.

[Santana28]

If there is no creative result of such hatred than the entire endeavor is useless and counter-productive.

Of course, to Malignant narcissists, the hatred itself has value. But it is a negative value which consumes itself in the process and burns out - a black hole.

[Henry]

	Originally Posted by Night To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think you may have missed my point.

And I think you may have missed the 2nd half of my post.

[Paul V]

All emotions must be analysed. Emotions that attempt to control my behaviour and therefore, can't be dealt with, must be repressed and crushed under the weight of logic.

At least that's how I work. I don't let hatred control me, but I don't refuse to acknowledge it either.

[Lights]

Originally Posted by Night To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I didn't. I divorced it from your intro as its inclusion betrayed the legitimacy of your message. Divided from the initial paragraph - the one that suggests the trend of the thread was directed towards the appreciation of Manson as iconic - your response is both cohesive and insightful. Considered parallel, your statement muddles the verve of your successive thoughts and reduces the acuity of your perception, relative to the initial aim of the thread. To avoid this, I removed the unnecessary so as to preserve.

Wow, that was a lot of big words for saying you didn't like him injecting his personal opinion on Manson into his response.
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I could see the arguments as clearly separated since he did use the transition, "In regards to your point."
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[Night]

Originally Posted by Lights To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Wow, that was a lot of big words for saying you didn't like him injecting his personal opinion on Manson into his response. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I could see the arguments as clearly separated since he did use the transition, "In regards to your point." To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You're probably right.

Pardon my hand, Henry. I'll delete my response.

[Rei]

I think the question here is whether you want to "control" pain in that way.
Sure you gain control (or rather you just become numb to the pain), but it doesn't equate to understanding it and dealing with/fixing anything.

I think the best way to 'control' pain is to push it away for a second, take a step back until you are confident you are calm enough to deal with thinking about it logically, and finding the stem of your problem.

If everyone embraced their problems all the time we'd all be emo and nothing "normal" (eg the regular things that arn't cohesive) in the world will ever get done.

Value of hatred?
None, it is a waste of energy. Perhaps I'm thinking of "blind hatred", but I really can't really think of hatred leading to anything constructive. Acting on feelings/impulse usually doesn't lead to good long term effects.

[Hdier]

Originally Posted by Solaris To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I have found that any measure of acknowledging my strongest emotions tends to take away some of their power. For me, this works, because I analyze why I have the emotion, what exactly caused it (the underlying stuff, not always the obvious event), and how it has affected my actions up to now. In doing this, I gain a greater understanding of myself, and how to control/understand my emotions. I have been known to use some of these things to drive myself on when I need to. However, doubt can drive me further than hatred. Hatred makes me stop and want to think too much.

Same here. Whenever I feel a really strong emotion (assuming that it isn't being upset being some is going against what I see as good) I tend to isolate myself. Then, the part of my brain (it feels like the back right corner) that always analizes everything kicks in after a minute or so, and I lose practically all emotion in me. It throws people off if I can't get out of a public area when this happens (I laugh later on).

[Hdier]

	Originally Posted by Rei To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Value of hatred? None, it is a waste of energy. Perhaps I'm thinking of "blind hatred", but I really can't really think of hatred leading to anything constructive. Acting on feelings/impulse usually doesn't lead to good long term effects.

I think that your making a huge assumption: you're saying that feeling hatred makes you act on hatred (at least thats what it seems to me; see the bolded remark). If you are happy, and you act impulsively off of happiness, that's bad to. The question is if hatred itself can be valuable, not if acting impulsively on it is valuable.

By the way, I just realized I never actually stated my opinion: yes, I think that it can be valuable, but tricky to work with and it needs to be manipulated [I Robot shows a good example of this (the movie, not the book which I am told is different)]

[rwyatt365]

[COLOR=black]

	Originally Posted by Night To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In embracing psychological pain, do we gain a certain measure of control over it?

[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]In a word, yes. If one truly embraces that pain and examines it, then one can control it. the issue is that most people do not truly embrace their pain; they experience it and then file it away in the recesses of their brain. That is where someone like Manson can find and exploit that pain for their own purposes.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]

	How valuable is hatred?

[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Whether for good, or for evil hatred does have value. Over the eons it has been the fuel that has built, and destroyed civilizations. Any strong emotion can be used as the motivation for doing great good, or great evil. [/COLOR]

[Santana28]

Originally Posted by rwyatt365 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[COLOR=black]In a word, yes. If one truly embraces that pain and examines it, then one can control it. the issue is that most people do not truly embrace their pain; they experience it and then file it away in the recesses of their brain. That is where someone like Manson can find and exploit that pain for their own purposes.[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]Whether for good, or for evil hatred does have value. Over the eons it has been the fuel that has built, and destroyed civilizations. Any strong emotion can be used as the motivation for doing great good, or great evil. [/COLOR]

It only has value if you apply what you have learned to accomplish something creative/destructive.

Ego trips do not count.

[Rei]

Originally Posted by Hdier To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think that your making a huge assumption: you're saying that feeling hatred makes you act on hatred (at least thats what it seems to me; see the bolded remark). If you are happy, and you act impulsively off of happiness, that's bad to. The question is if hatred itself can be valuable, not if acting impulsively on it is valuable. By the way, I just realized I never actually stated my opinion: yes, I think that it can be valuable, but tricky to work with and it needs to be manipulated [I Robot shows a good example of this (the movie, not the book which I am told is different)]

Alright...
Say you don't act on hatred.
Then what's the point of it?

I think discontent is sufficient, there is no need to go to the extremes of hating.

I think anger and pain can both be dark guardians that help us to keep our personal boundaries intact and help us to stand up at important times and not be taken advantage of in life. At the same time, we should use our emotions to benefit us but not allow ourselves to be driven by our emotions. I don't believe in either extravagance in nuturing negative feelings or in repression of them, but rather keeping it all in balance and perspective as best as a person is able to.

[Hdier]

	Originally Posted by Rei To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Alright... Say you don't act on hatred. Then what's the point of it? I think discontent is sufficient, there is no need to go to the extremes of hating.

I didn't say you don't act on hatred, just not immediately and impulsively act on it. When I don't overanalyze it, my hatred helps me because I know how to focus it into things such as determination; and before you say that hatred isn't actually valuable because I'm not directley using the hatred, let me point out that it is a lot easier to feel hatred (at least for me), and therefore if you use it to feul determination then you get a lot more of it.

P.S. You're going from one extreme to another: from acting based off of emotional impulses to not acting on them at all. I'm in a middle ground

[rwyatt365]

	Originally Posted by Rei To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Alright... Say you don't act on hatred. Then what's the point of it? I think discontent is sufficient, there is no need to go to the extremes of hating.

[FONT=Verdana]Discontent is like a smoldering ember, in and of itself not very useful except that it slowly and insidiously consumes whatever it is contained in. It's only when the ember is fanned into a flame (hatred, or some other strong emotion) that "work" is being done (whether constructive, or destructive). One doesn’t carry around s smoldering ember just to admire the smoke that it produces. No, the ember is a convenient mechanism for conveying and distributing the means for creation of fire.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]As such, carrying around discontent performs no real action until it is used to ignite a "passion" that will make things happen. Harboring discontent, to me, just eats away at your insides.[/FONT]

[Rei]

Originally Posted by rwyatt365 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[FONT=Verdana]Discontent is like a smoldering ember, in and of itself not very useful except that it slowly and insidiously consumes whatever it is contained in. It's only when the ember is fanned into a flame (hatred, or some other strong emotion) that "work" is being done (whether constructive, or destructive). One doesn’t carry around s smoldering ember just to admire the smoke that it produces. No, the ember is a convenient mechanism for conveying and distributing the means for creation of fire.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]As such, carrying around discontent performs no real action until it is used to ignite a "passion" that will make things happen. Harboring discontent, to me, just eats away at your insides.[/FONT]

Perhaps that is why I am rarely motivated. I rarely have any feelings that cause this kind of 'spark' And frankly I really don't understand how people can let an emotion drive them. In some cases it's a good thing, but in others it's a loss on my part.

Originally Posted by Hdier To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I didn't say you don't act on hatred, just not immediately and impulsively act on it. When I don't overanalyze it, my hatred helps me because I know how to focus it into things such as determination; and before you say that hatred isn't actually valuable because I'm not directley using the hatred, let me point out that it is a lot easier to feel hatred (at least for me), and therefore if you use it to feul determination then you get a lot more of it. P.S. You're going from one extreme to another: from acting based off of emotional impulses to not acting on them at all. I'm in a middle ground

I think the problem here is that I don't really have middle ground in terms of 'feelings'. Also that I view hatred as a very extreme emotion (or rather, extreme word that describes a bad emotion).

I can't even imagine having a 'mediocre hatred'

What fuels my determination can be more accurately described as "disappointment in/disgust at my own incompetence"

[Oversphere]

Originally Posted by rwyatt365 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[FONT=Verdana]Discontent is like a smoldering ember, in and of itself not very useful except that it slowly and insidiously consumes whatever it is contained in. It's only when the ember is fanned into a flame (hatred, or some other strong emotion) that "work" is being done (whether constructive, or destructive). One doesn’t carry around s smoldering ember just to admire the smoke that it produces. No, the ember is a convenient mechanism for conveying and distributing the means for creation of fire.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]As such, carrying around discontent performs no real action until it is used to ignite a "passion" that will make things happen. Harboring discontent, to me, just eats away at your insides.[/FONT]

That is an excellent metaphor. It applies to several situations in which I've found myself and to my subsequent reactions.

In my opinion, ALL motivation is derived from emotion. I think that anyone who claims to be motivated by logic is fooling himself/herself. Logic is often an excellent means by which to accomplish a goal, but the goal itself is ultimately a means by which to attain a desired emotion or to avoid an undesired emotion.

Let's say I want to make more money. For the majority of people, that is a logical goal. However, the money itself and the goods and services for which it can be exchanged are just numbers and stuff. Separated from emotion, they're irrelevant. Those goods and services, or even the ability to attain those goods and services, are an excellent means for attaining desired emotions and avoiding undesired emotions. If the acquisition of numbers and stuff does not end up producing desired emotions and/or avoiding undesired emotions, the goal of making money becomes illogical. It's all about emotions. You're not a robot. You might as well face it.