[Bioplasmoid]

	Originally Posted by smashy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And what let me really surprised in this society is that going to that pointless gatherings is considered "normal" and acceptable, and if you don´t join them, you´re the one that has a problem...

So very true! I would hope that if INxJs do ever take over the world, this is one of the first groupthink perceptions that gets put on the bonfire.

We hermits should be charged less tax , as we are using less of the public resources listed below by gathering in smaller groups.

a) Emergency Services
b) Police/Security Services
c) Energy Resources
d) Air
e) Land

So by being antisocial we are saving the planet unlike all those crazy Extroverts.
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[rztrnc]

Inferior Se - it isn't just a lack of ability but an active handicap.

[Bill]

	Originally Posted by rztrnc To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Inferior Se - it isn't just a lack of ability but an active handicap.

Sorry, what do you mean? I don't understand.

[cullenisacreep]

It seems really fake and pointless. I hate family reunions when people just exchange crappy gifts and pretend to like them. You don't know everyone too well, and most of the conversations consist of small talk. Even if you're desperate to learn about the weather there's honestly nothing you get from mindless chatter. I'll admit I don't like most people nor do I like talking to them, but when I choose to it's going to be for a reason.

[Elsien]

Lance "I have a great idea!"

Chris "What's that?"

Lance "I am going to make a building, have a large spot where people can come together and move around to music, and serve liquid that makes them do things they will regret."

Chris "I don't think it will work, what is the goal of the people that come to your building?"

Lance "There isn't a goal, they just come, drink, and dance."

Chris "Sounds like hell."

Lance "I agree."

[darkeldar88]

Originally Posted by PurpleFnords To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

We hermits should be charged less tax , as we are using less of the public resources listed below by gathering in smaller groups. a) Emergency Services b) Police/Security Services c) Energy Resources d) Air e) Land So by being antisocial we are saving the planet unlike all those crazy Extroverts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

AHAHAH best reason I've heard in awhile. Ill have to use that next time someone trys to drag me out of the house to a big party

[JonD]

The larger the social group, the less likely you'll get into a good discussion. Too many interruptions, and you have to keep the conversation light such not to alienate the others not taking part in your little sub group discussion.

[rztrnc]

	Originally Posted by Bill To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Sorry, what do you mean? I don't understand.

Maybe I didn't word it well (I'm not a native English speaker). The thing with inferior functions is that they become a hindrance for us in the areas that they cover. Take an INTP for example - his inferior function would be Fe, making ethics/value based judgements on the outside world. An INTP would have greater trouble doing things in this area than a person with no Fe at all - say an xxTJ. An INTJ would simply find Fe tasks as strange stuff he has to do for practical ends, a sort of "act", with little to moderate discomfort - an INTP, OTOH, would feel hurt if he tries to use his existent Fe. So an inferior function isn't just something we lack - the very fact that it's there is causing us trouble. And it doesn't matter if you have a superbrain with an uberdeveloped inferior function - you'd still be psychologically averse to using it. And you'd feel incompetent and uneasy performing in the areas covered by it, fearing you would screw up, choosing not to do it at all instead.

Now let's consider what exactly Se is. Most of the online descriptions underestimate its importance. It's probably best described as the function of "doing". It gives you a tactical sense - a vivid image of the present situation. This doesn't just mean the paint colour of the room you're in or the expression on the face of the person in front of you. It also means what the person you just talked to on the phone is doing in his house , how the traffic is at this hour in the city, and how much goods your client is willing to buy from you if you call him at this moment. And it gives you the imperative to act. It's a compulsion, you become restless if you sit still. Consider this - ESTPs make great military tacticians. General Patton was one and I'm pretty sure Robert E. Lee was one too. Also, human interaction is a major part of Se.

So now you can imagine what having an inferior Se would be like. Invert all of how an ESxP would feel and act - and you get what an INTJ feels and acts like. This is why, contrary to stupid online stereotypes, INTJs aren't really the "go-getters" of the NT world that we're made out to be, contrasting supposedly with INTP "solitary thinkers". We're the most likely to analyse a situation in painful detail, make intricate solutions to the problem - and then actually do nothing about it. We can be averse to "doing". Interacting with people, putting our plans into action, manipulating the outside world. Some of us are procrastinators of the highest kind.

So, our inferior Se can be a pain in the ass in social situations. We're just not sure if we can do it right. Afraid we might screw up and humiliate ourselves. Afraid we won't know what to do when something unexpected comes up. Part of why we're more open in front of people close to us - we're not afraid of showing Se in front of them - we trust them. And even when we do use it, we can be pretty deer-in-headlights in a quick changing situation, and just generally awkward in Se situations, not knowing what to do, or how much "pressure" to apply in a situation.

One thing though - INTJs have very a well developed inferior function. In fact, I'd go out on a limb and say we (probably along with INFJs) have the most well-developed inferior function of all types, and have the least inhibition in using it. And we do use it much of the time too, due to sheer necessity, and a lot more of us are a lot more outgoing than the image you'd get from stereotypes - but we're never entirely pain-free doing it, it's tiring. Some of us can use it as pretty much a dominant function - usually in bursts that could last anywhere from a few hours to a couple of days to months (and years?), and actually enjoy it during the moment - but at the end of the Se binge, we might feel confused and queasy, maybe a little shame, perhaps even guilt. Like we just streaked through a crowded stadium. Wondering if we did it right, dwelling upon all the perceived mistakes we did, feeling the need "correct" our responses so that we don't do them again, and being generally averse to doing it again at all. Now, not all of this applies to all of us - some are quite comfortable with Se. I know during my more outgoing period, I wasn't as uncomfortable with it as the above description would suggest. But it does give you an idea of what the problem is.

BTW, take this with a pinch of salt, some of this is my personal observation and opinion, not really established facts.

So - was that^ worded well enough?
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[rara avis]

Originally Posted by PurpleFnords To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

What I find to be unsatisfying about VERY loud music, is the pain in my ears when its simply too loud and too compressed (eg concert/club/P.A soundsystem). Great music can be ruined by bad sound gear/bad operators or even just by bad acoustics in the venue. Music that is over-processed can seem tiring much more quickly. As for dancing, I can't stand it these days. I would rather just leave a situation where I am expected to do it, even if its "important" to do so to please the group. Of course in the right place at the right time, with the right small group of people, and the right music/lighting/ambience or intoxication - I sometimes will flail my body parts around randomly. But my personal criteria outlined above are seldom met by the few social events I attend. I wonder if anyone has ever designed a nightclub specifically for introverted punters...*wonders*

At the risk of sounding like someone's grandmother, I'd love to see a 30s-style supper club renaissance- where there are tables to sit at, and food and drinks to occupy you, and maybe more sedate, measured dancing.
(For the record, my ENFJ sister is on the same page with me on this. EVERYBODY loves a supper club.)

[Functianalyst]

	Originally Posted by Bill To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So then, fellow INTJers, my question is: why do you hate socializing in large groups?

You may want to keep in mind that this has less bearing on and is not exclusive to INTJs or INTs? As an ISTP, I am the same way.

[John F Kennedy]

Whenever there is a major social occasion it seems like there are too many people saying meaningless things really fast, so that I get disoriented and dizzy. I was even considering I might have a form of autism or something because I become so shut down, disinterested and disoriented in larger groups of people.

[intellael]

Originally Posted by rztrnc To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Maybe I didn't word it well (I'm not a native English speaker). The thing with inferior functions is that they become a hindrance for us in the areas that they cover. Take an INTP for example - his inferior function would be Fe, making ethics/value based judgements on the outside world. An INTP would have greater trouble doing things in this area than a person with no Fe at all - say an xxTJ. An INTJ would simply find Fe tasks as strange stuff he has to do for practical ends, a sort of "act", with little to moderate discomfort - an INTP, OTOH, would feel hurt if he tries to use his existent Fe. So an inferior function isn't just something we lack - the very fact that it's there is causing us trouble. And it doesn't matter if you have a superbrain with an uberdeveloped inferior function - you'd still be psychologically averse to using it. And you'd feel incompetent and uneasy performing in the areas covered by it, fearing you would screw up, choosing not to do it at all instead. Now let's consider what exactly Se is. Most of the online descriptions underestimate its importance. It's probably best described as the function of "doing". It gives you a tactical sense - a vivid image of the present situation. This doesn't just mean the paint colour of the room you're in or the expression on the face of the person in front of you. It also means what the person you just talked to on the phone is doing in his house , how the traffic is at this hour in the city, and how much goods your client is willing to buy from you if you call him at this moment. And it gives you the imperative to act. It's a compulsion, you become restless if you sit still. Consider this - ESTPs make great military tacticians. General Patton was one and I'm pretty sure Robert E. Lee was one too. Also, human interaction is a major part of Se. So now you can imagine what having an inferior Se would be like. Invert all of how an ESxP would feel and act - and you get what an INTJ feels and acts like. This is why, contrary to stupid online stereotypes, INTJs aren't really the "go-getters" of the NT world that we're made out to be, contrasting supposedly with INTP "solitary thinkers". We're the most likely to analyse a situation in painful detail, make intricate solutions to the problem - and then actually do nothing about it. We can be averse to "doing". Interacting with people, putting our plans into action, manipulating the outside world. Some of us are procrastinators of the highest kind. So, our inferior Se can be a pain in the ass in social situations. We're just not sure if we can do it right. Afraid we might screw up and humiliate ourselves. Afraid we won't know what to do when something unexpected comes up. Part of why we're more open in front of people close to us - we're not afraid of showing Se in front of them - we trust them. And even when we do use it, we can be pretty deer-in-headlights in a quick changing situation, and just generally awkward in Se situations, not knowing what to do, or how much "pressure" to apply in a situation. One thing though - INTJs have very a well developed inferior function. In fact, I'd go out on a limb and say we (probably along with INFJs) have the most well-developed inferior function of all types, and have the least inhibition in using it. And we do use it much of the time too, due to sheer necessity, and a lot more of us are a lot more outgoing than the image you'd get from stereotypes - but we're never entirely pain-free doing it, it's tiring. Some of us can use it as pretty much a dominant function - usually in bursts that could last anywhere from a few hours to a couple of days to months (and years?), and actually enjoy it during the moment - but at the end of the Se binge, we might feel confused and queasy, maybe a little shame, perhaps even guilt. Like we just streaked through a crowded stadium. Wondering if we did it right, dwelling upon all the perceived mistakes we did, feeling the need "correct" our responses so that we don't do them again, and being generally averse to doing it again at all. Now, not all of this applies to all of us - some are quite comfortable with Se. I know during my more outgoing period, I wasn't as uncomfortable with it as the above description would suggest. But it does give you an idea of what the problem is. BTW, take this with a pinch of salt, some of this is my personal observation and opinion, not really established facts. So - was that^ worded well enough? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

That makes sense. Often I have noticed INTJs referred to as underachievers and achievement oriented. A contradiction it appears. Yet, not really. To imagine a J as a procrastinator is odd. Like you stated earlier our Se needs some significant developing along with Te. Ni reigning without much grounding would be crackpot procrastinator city, not to mention scary. I am just learning about the responsibilities of the cognitive functions.

[BlackOp]

	Originally Posted by Bill To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I was at a wedding this weekend.?

I went to a wedding recently. There was a beautiful scenario. An elderly lady (in a wheelchair) was left under an arch of balloons...next to the dance floor and cake. All the young people where dancing and having a "great" time....she was five feet away from them. Alone and literally abandoned. I watched the whole thing transpire. The "dj" started playing "celebrate".....good times, come on". It was a pretty profound visual.

[smashy]

Originally Posted by BlackOp To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I went to a wedding recently. There was a beautiful scenario. An elderly lady (in a wheelchair) was left under an arch of balloons...next to the dance floor and cake. All the young people where dancing and having a "great" time....she was five feet away from them. Alone and literally abandoned. I watched the whole thing transpire. The "dj" started playing "celebrate".....good times, come on". It was a pretty profound visual.

And I´m pretty sure you were the only one there noticing her.

[LordMaiestas]

It weird to be in a large group and normally your the one who would just sit and let those extrovert get all the limelight.
And one or two would be leading the others in a group like a bunch of sheeps.

[BlackOp]

	Originally Posted by smashy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And I´m pretty sure you were the only one there noticing her.

Being "rare" has it price. It was information available to everyone.....the others chose not to acknowledge it.

[smashy]

	Originally Posted by LordMaiestas To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It weird to be in a large group and normally your the one who would just sit and let those extrovert get all the limelight. And one or two would be leading the others in a group like a bunch of sheeps.

That´s another reason I don´t like large groups. I notice the leaders leading the sheeps and I don´t want to be one of them, I feel it´s ridiculous. But at the same time, it´s expected that you don´t notice that and just follow others in order to "fit in".

I also don´t like to let others get all the limelight just because I´m quiet.





smashy added to this post, 5 minutes and 8 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by BlackOp To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Being "rare" has it price. It was information available to everyone.....the others chose not to acknowledge it.

Well, I think although INTJ´s don´t act upon feelings, we do have a certain type of sensitivity or special feeling to observe and see certain things that others that are Feeling types don´t have. Most times, I find these Feelings types VERY egocentric, because they can show a lot of feelings but it´s all towards them, them, them.

And Extroverts notice the old lady as well, they just see her and think: "What the hell is she doing here, go home" type of thinking.

[BigWoc]

Maybe we hate it, cause we are not in control of the situation. For me, it takes me out of my comfort zone. I like to be in control of my mind and thoughts. Small talk is just bla, bla, bla.... No meaning. There is no point. When there is a task at hand, the first step is small talk. Why?? Oh, sorry venting about work. Large groups make me feel so out of control.

[Gekko]

Its already been said the uneasy feelings that INTJ's have, however am I the only person here that feels like they end up living the life of a spy type when in large gatherings? In most large groups, the first things I always check out is the exits, the dark area's, the bottle-neck points of flow, and then make judgements of the certain groups or individuals at the gathering. Where the single people are, the business people, the extroverts enjoying themselves and the people pretending to have a good time but you can tell they will slip away for a smoke or drink at the bar alone and you will probably end up talking to them later in the night.

Does anyone else here process information like that? I don't think I have any ambition or desire to be in the spy world or anything which is why I don't understand the reason I always do those things when i'm out.

[jikin]

	Originally Posted by Functianalyst To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You may want to keep in mind that this has less bearing on and is not exclusive to INTJs or INTs? As an ISTP, I am the same way.

Very true. The thoughts regarding the topic apply to most introverts in general, not just INTJs. Being in groups gives extraverts energy, which is why they like it. For introverts it's an physical, mental and emotional drain, which is why we hate it.

[just a user]

Originally Posted by Gekko To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Its already been said the uneasy feelings that INTJ's have, however am I the only person here that feels like they end up living the life of a spy type when in large gatherings? In most large groups, the first things I always check out is the exits, the dark area's, the bottle-neck points of flow, and then make judgements of the certain groups or individuals at the gathering. Where the single people are, the business people, the extroverts enjoying themselves and the people pretending to have a good time but you can tell they will slip away for a smoke or drink at the bar alone and you will probably end up talking to them later in the night. Does anyone else here process information like that? I don't think I have any ambition or desire to be in the spy world or anything which is why I don't understand the reason I always do those things when i'm out.

I always check for

• exits,
• CCTV / security cameras (especially in elevators and around entrances), security guards,
• any kind of scanners or locks (such as scanners for ID cards and the like),
• and people that observe other people while pretending to do nothing.

I do this since I started playing sci-fi pen & paper role playing games (Cyberpunk 2020, Shadowrun ...). As I have been told by other players, we all do it so you can easily guess who is also (possibly) gaming.
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[smashy]

I only check my watch, to see if it´s time to leave.

[Aya]

Most of what I think about these large group gathering and all what goes with it has been said in the previous posts I read. And it's really a relief to know that I'm not the only one who thinks it's "wicked".

In my entourage, there aren't that many people like me and in that kind of "social" situations I'm the weird one apparently!

It happens quiet often that I'm in more or less large group and,, of course, I just stand there quiet, and it doesn't bother me that much if those people wonder why am I not participating that much to there "conversation".

Well, while I'm just standing there quietly I take my time to observe and analyse each person : how they talk, what they talk about and their feed back to what's been said; and what I just see is that their small talk is just stupid and shallow and their reactions are so hypocritical and sometimes it is so obvious that I wonder how they keep on talking. I just wonder what kind of "game" they playing really.
Well that's without adding the fact that when the talk isn't about the weather or other stupid stuff it's about criticizing an other person and if this other person shows up somehow it's the time to fake smiles and talking about an other person!

There is just too many aspects I hate about socializing with large groups and since I'm of the kind 'I don't care about what people say' I just happen to avoid these large group gathering as often as possible or at least when I'm not in the mood to even hear them talking and if they happen to come to me I just to go somewhere else and I don't bother explaining my self.

[radames]

Just too much stimulation for me. Sure, I may go if I want to watch people for a bit but not be required to interact.

The lonely feeling while dancing affected me pretty badly when younger because it seemed everyone else had what I wanted; affection from a woman.

Success in socializing in classroom environments was easy for me because the focus was on a subject not the idea of social interaction. So, a goal was evident and its support prevented social requirements or "grading."

[Bill]

Originally Posted by rztrnc To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

So now you can imagine what having an inferior Se would be like. Invert all of how an ESxP would feel and act - and you get what an INTJ feels and acts like. This is why, contrary to stupid online stereotypes, INTJs aren't really the "go-getters" of the NT world that we're made out to be, contrasting supposedly with INTP "solitary thinkers". We're the most likely to analyse a situation in painful detail, make intricate solutions to the problem - and then actually do nothing about it. We can be averse to "doing". Interacting with people, putting our plans into action, manipulating the outside world. Some of us are procrastinators of the highest kind.

I find this very insightful, and a bit depressing. I find that my lack of doing is my biggest downfall. Over and over again, I find myself paralyzed to actually take action. Even when it's in my best interest, and I know it.

My question is - is inferior Se really the function that keeps us from acting (I don't mean just socially, any type of action)? Is it not a combination of INTJ? Because surely the thinking and judging must add to the lack of action.

It seems to me the extraverts, the sensors, the feelers, the perceivers are by nature more active. Because they don't have all these internal functions that separate them from the world. Being an introvert, using intuition, thinking and judging - I believe those traits are all distancing and internal. Do you agree?

So then, everyone, what do we need to do to be more active? To take more action? To procrastinate less? Not just taking action socially but in terms of moving our lives forward? Other than the obvious "take more action." What is the prescription to this apparent overthinking/under-acting?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.