[prometheus]

Originally Posted by Lights To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I've read The Fountainhead, and I am well aware of objectivism. It's completely normative as is most of your arguments. The sad thing is that I have read many, many political ideologies and have learned the benefits and faults of each, whereas you are clearly limited to one. Why don't you pick up a copy of the Communist Manifessto, and read some Mein Kampf, or even read a little of Plato's Republic. There is a little to learn in everything if you could ever bring yourself to open up your little mind.

Yup, read them and Social Contract, Utopia, New Atlantis, City of the Sun and many more. Except for The Fountainhead all of these (you and I both mentioned) are utopias (except maybe Mein Kampf I didn't read enough before vomiting) based on communism (which is an ethos of theft and force). Atlas Shrugged is a non-communist "utopia".

[Lights]

Well why you would limit yourself to any utopian idea is beyond me. But I'm a moderate and you are an extremist so there isn't really any common ground for us to build on.

[prometheus]

	Originally Posted by Lights To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well why you would limit yourself to any utopian idea is beyond me. But I'm a moderate and you are an extremist so there isn't really any common ground for us to build on.

I'M A GOD DAMNED INDIVIDUAL, STOP TRYING TO SHOVE ME IN SOME MOLD TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND ME!

I don't picture you prancing around in Red Dorthy shoes saying "fabulous", or think you have a Soviet flag tacked to your ceiling, or shopping at the natural foods store based on what little I know about you.


I'm not limiting myself to one "utopian idea", after almost two decades of evaluating political systems, ideologies, ethoses etc, (incidentally Plato's was the first) anarcho-capitolist is the only one that seems to support the individual.

[Lights]

	Originally Posted by prometheus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'M A GOD DAMNED INDIVIDUAL, STOP TRYING TO SHOVE ME IN SOME MOLD TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND ME!

Okay, Mr. INTJ.
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I figured I would just get a jump on it before you did.

	I don't picture you prancing around in Red Dorthy shoes saying "fabulous", or think you have a Soviet flag tacked to your ceiling, or shopping at the natural foods store based on what little I know about you.

Nope, I'm a Wyoming bred, steak eating, hiking boots wearing, all around American guy. Why do you put me so far on the left though? Is it my sexuality? It seems you've done some forum searching to load up on ammo.
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	I'm not limiting myself to one "utopian idea", after almost two decades of evaluating political systems, ideologies, ethoses etc, (incidentally Plato's was the first) anarcho-capitolist is the only one that seems to support the individual.

I value the individual as well. Funny how we have come to such different conclusions. It must be the personality difference.

[prometheus]

Originally Posted by Lights To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Okay, Mr. INTJ. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I figured I would just get a jump on it before you did. Nope, I'm a Wyoming bred, steak eating, hiking boots wearing, all around American guy. Why do you put me so far on the left though? Is it my sexuality? It seems you've done some forum searching to load up on ammo. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

As SunTzu said "If you know the enemy and know yourself, your victory will not stand in doubt"

	I value the individual as well. Funny how we have come to such different conclusions. It must be the personality difference.

Damn F's

[Lights]

	Originally Posted by prometheus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As SunTzu said "If you know the enemy and know yourself, your victory will not stand in doubt"

Wow, no shame within you INTJs at all.

	Damn F's

"I understand your logic but somehow it seems so...heartless." -Sunny from I Robot.

Edit: In fact, I think I'll try an avatar change.

[prometheus]

	Originally Posted by Lights To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Wow, no shame within you INTJs at all. "I understand your logic but somehow it seems so...heartless." -Sunny from I Robot. Edit: In fact, I think I'll try an avatar change.

Charity must be voluntary. Forced redistribution will result in the curtailment of effort of the productive and a decrease in the amount of real wealth ...
AYN RAND

[Lights]

	Originally Posted by prometheus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Charity must be voluntary. Forced redistribution will result in the curtailment of effort of the productive and a decrease in the amount of real wealth ... AYN RAND

Ayn Rand sucks! -LIGHTS

[prometheus]

Belittling things one doesn't understand is equal to waving a flag of ignorance.- PROMETHEUS

[Lights]

	Originally Posted by prometheus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Belittling things one doesn't understand is equal to waving a flag of ignorance.- PROMETHEUS

I already said I understand it so how does that quote apply?
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[prometheus]

	Originally Posted by Lights To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I already said I understand it so how does that quote apply? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

But your actions (posts) say different. How do you expect the already super heavily taxed producers in this country to carry the extra load of "free" health care. If you had read AS you would be able to fathom exactly how screwed we are, and how much worse it will be getting. Do you know what is happening in Detroit and much of the midwest? This was the production nexus of america, now it is a rusting wasteland. These local governments can't bribe producers to return.

Our whole economy is now one giant debt kiting fraud.

If you disagree with any of these statements, point it out and I'll prove it.

[Lights]

Originally Posted by prometheus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

But your actions (posts) say different. How do you expect the already super heavily taxed producers in this country to carry the extra load of "free" health care. If you had read AS you would be able to fathom exactly how screwed we are, and how much worse it will be getting. Do you know what is happening in Detroit and much of the midwest? This was the production nexus of america, now it is a rusting wasteland. These local governments can't bribe producers to return. Our whole economy is now one giant debt kiting fraud. If you disagree with any of these statements, point it out and I'll prove it.

I offered my proposed solution. You chose to ignore it's merits because you are anti government.

[prometheus]

	Originally Posted by Lights To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I offered my proposed solution. You chose to ignore it's merits because you are anti government.

No, I read it, evaluated it, discussed it with you, and dismissed it because of its demerits. Namely, it is a taxpayer funded big government program.

[Lights]

	Originally Posted by prometheus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No, I read it, evaluated it, discussed it with you, and dismissed it because of its demerits. Namely, it is a taxpayer funded big government program.

You stamped "Bureaucratic Waste" under each position and then made incorrect assertions in your next few posts about what I had proposed, proving that you had not even bothered to truly evaluate what I had written. Then you made it clear that any proposal that involved the government in any capacity would have been unsuitable for you because you refused to compromise even an inch from your ideology. Thereby proving me right all along.
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[prometheus]

Originally Posted by Lights To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You stamped "Bureaucratic Waste" under each position and then made incorrect assertions in your next few posts about what I had proposed, proving that you had not even bothered to truly evaluate what I had written. Then you made it clear that any proposal that involved the government in any capacity would have been unsuitable for you because you refused to compromise even an inch from your ideology. Thereby proving me right all along. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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OK, so you want Big Brother involved in any problem you encounter, and I don't. I think we can agree to disagree, especially since your "solutions" are ethically wrong and ultimately will require you to use your hired government thugs to enforce them on me.
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Where as my solutions will just leave you the hell alone.
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[Lights]

Originally Posted by prometheus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. OK, so you want Big Brother involved in any problem you encounter, and I don't. I think we can agree to disagree, especially since your "solutions" are ethically wrong and ultimately will require you to use your hired government thugs to enforce them on me. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Where as my solutions will just leave you the hell alone. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"Ethically" wrong by your ethics. You are the one with the problem, not me. I'm looking for amiable solutions in a society that functions under a government. You are dreaming about anarchy and ideals that are as unrealistic as the perfect communism. As long as there are people who will congregate together, there will be government, and that is the fundamental flaw in your ideology. People will always come together so they can better compete and leadership will always naturally emerge either by election or force. This is an undeniable evolutionary fact of humanity.

[prometheus]

Originally Posted by Lights To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"Ethically" wrong by your ethics. You are the one with the problem, not me. I'm looking for amiable solutions in a society that functions under a government. You are dreaming about anarchy and ideals that are as unrealistic as the perfect communism. As long as there are people who will congregate together, there will be government, and that is the fundamental flaw in your ideology. People will always come together so they can better compete and leadership will always naturally emerge either by election or force. This is an undeniable evolutionary fact of humanity.

Your view of history is as scary, as your need for a government nanny. The most often sourced examples of working Anarch-Capitolism are America's "wild" west, and Viking age Iceland.
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is a site with hundreds of examples. I even belong to
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message board set up in the A-C style. I'll give you a fair warning that board isn't moderated at all and if you wanted to play there there would be no skirts to hide under, or safety net.

[Lights]

Originally Posted by prometheus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Your view of history is as scary, as your need for a government nanny. The most often sourced examples of working Anarch-Capitolism are America's "wild" west, and Viking age Iceland. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. is a site with hundreds of examples. I even belong to To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. message board set up in the A-C style. I'll give you a fair warning that board isn't moderated at all and if you wanted to play there there would be no skirts to hide under, or safety net.

Yeah, wild hanging mobs and raiding parties...ideal.
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No, I never said I needed a government. I said government is a reality. You know, as in the real world which exists outside your mind with people in it who come together on their own and decide to form governments. There is a big difference between needing something and accepting it as a part of the current reality. I value individuality also, but I like to be somewhat practical so that I can actually think up realistic solutions to the current reality.

[prometheus]

Originally Posted by Lights To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yeah, wild hanging mobs and raiding parties...ideal. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. No, I never said I needed a government. I said government is a reality. You know, as in the real world which exists outside your mind with people in it who come together on their own and decide to form governments. There is a big difference between needing something and accepting it as a part of the current reality. I value individuality also, but I like to be somewhat practical so that I can actually think up realistic solutions to the current reality.

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It is obvious you didn't read anything from the link, or you wouldn't have made that statement. A-C societies have worked, in most cases better and longer than your nanny-state socialist ideals. Since you have no intention of considering /looking at my arguments I'm off to find the Troll Ignore Button. You can keep blathering away about how you will swoop in wearing your superman tights and save the masses through you unique brand of fascism.

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[Lights]

Originally Posted by prometheus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. It is obvious you didn't read anything from the link, or you wouldn't have made that statement. A-C societies have worked, in most cases better and longer than your nanny-state socialist ideals. Since you have no intention of considering /looking at my arguments I'm off to find the Troll Ignore Button. You can keep blathering away about how you will swoop in wearing your superman tights and save the masses through you unique brand of fascism. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Sigh...well that ended as well as I could have expected. But for the record..

1. I made my comment in jest and I'm sure that A-C societies have worked in the past, but I don't know how applicable they are to our current situation.
2. I'm not a socialist, but to an anarchist, I imagine anyone who would practice democracy would be.
3. I look too damn good in tights to be swooping around in them. I would be mobbed if I did.

Too bad you won't see my parting comments but it was an interesting discussion nonetheless.

[Bossy Mom]

Some people here think I judge more than think and I also throw up unsubstantiated b.s. My experience with the health care system is vast, and I also have something called principles. Some people here don't use logic! Here's some logic - if the government is supposed to control health care and everyone has a "right" to it, why doesn't the government also control housing, food, transportation - everything! If we must have health care, what about a roof over our heads, food, and a right to transportation, theater tickets, sofas, beds, sheets, towels, pictures to place on our walls, etc. No one has the right to control the life of another person. No one has the right to one minute of my life any more than I have the right to one minute of another person's life. And no one can dictate to me what I can feel compassionate about!

[Lights]

Originally Posted by Bossy Mom To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Some people here think I judge more than think and I also throw up unsubstantiated b.s. My experience with the health care system is vast, and I also have something called principles. Some people here don't use logic! Here's some logic - if the government is supposed to control health care and everyone has a "right" to it, why doesn't the government also control housing, food, transportation - everything! If we must have health care, what about a roof over our heads, food, and a right to transportation, theater tickets, sofas, beds, sheets, towels, pictures to place on our walls, etc. No one has the right to control the life of another person. No one has the right to one minute of my life any more than I have the right to one minute of another person's life. And no one can dictate to me what I can feel compassionate about!

Interesting line of reasoning. What makes you assume you have rights at all? Some religious text, the Constitution, or your own personal philosophy? Obviously not the first two since they "dictate" how you are suppose to live your life. I'm not disagreeing with you, but since you brought logic into the equation, I'm curious as to the logic behind your "rights". What determines what "rights" people should and shouldn't have? Why shouldn't people have a right to health care? People believe they have a right to an education in this country, so should we eliminate public schools because they are "controlling" people's lives?

[prometheus]

Originally Posted by Bossy Mom To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Some people here think I judge more than think and I also throw up unsubstantiated b.s. My experience with the health care system is vast, and I also have something called principles. Some people here don't use logic! Here's some logic - if the government is supposed to control health care and everyone has a "right" to it, why doesn't the government also control housing, food, transportation - everything! If we must have health care, what about a roof over our heads, food, and a right to transportation, theater tickets, sofas, beds, sheets, towels, pictures to place on our walls, etc. No one has the right to control the life of another person. No one has the right to one minute of my life any more than I have the right to one minute of another person's life. And no one can dictate to me what I can feel compassionate about!

Well put. All rights, or infringements of them are fundamentally a question of who owns you, or the fruits of your labors.

[rocksteady]

Originally Posted by Bossy Mom To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Some people here think I judge more than think and I also throw up unsubstantiated b.s. My experience with the health care system is vast, and I also have something called principles. Some people here don't use logic! Here's some logic - if the government is supposed to control health care and everyone has a "right" to it, why doesn't the government also control housing, food, transportation - everything! If we must have health care, what about a roof over our heads, food, and a right to transportation, theater tickets, sofas, beds, sheets, towels, pictures to place on our walls, etc. No one has the right to control the life of another person. No one has the right to one minute of my life any more than I have the right to one minute of another person's life. And no one can dictate to me what I can feel compassionate about!

I believe this is an argument for anarchy. I'm willing to bet you aren't consistent on this stance.

[Bossy Mom]

I believe in as little government as possible. The natural tendency of government is to grow. And the form of government that I advocate is not anarchy at all. I think anarchy is as destructive as communism. Under anarchy, bullies rule. Under communism, bullies rule.The main purposes of government is to protect the rights of each individual and his or her safety, to see that contracts are kept, and also to keep foreign invaders out. The free market can do the rest (and each state can test ideas to see if they work). Our constitution is a remarkable document; it is too bad that modern day liberals choose to ignore it.

It is interesting to me that people on the right (like myself) are often attacked as being stupid, illogical, not factual, etc., so that the attacker appears to be the opposite. I have not seen any convincing "arguments" from the lefties here. Each time a lefty argues, they want to attack the "compassion" of others to hopefully someday use the brute force of government to enforce their "compassion of the day." Using logical arguments, such as, "If a person has a right to health care, doesn't that same person have the right to food, clothing, housing, etc.?" are ignored by the lefties, because if they have to actually think about them, these logical statements would shatter their illusions.