[dreamcatcher]

Tree, I like your advice. I will see him on Thanksgiving and make my move, no questions asked. I guess it is the only way to find out. And yes, "talking" about it never works, because when we did eye contact turned into looking straight down at the table and making hand motions back and forth back and forth over the table, like a child that has just gotten caught stealing gum from the 7-11.
Would you, as INTJ's, see writing letters as an ideal situation?
And tree, your username is funny. My INTJ is a "tree worker"-he tree climbs as a hobby with equipment and everything and spent a lot of time as a tree care worker. He's a very "Thoreau" Chris McCandless type although he would never admit it.
Anyway, what was Chris McCandless' personality type?
Thanks again for all of your input, it has been so helpful.

[tree]

Good luck. Perhaps get a couple of beers into him first if you can. Also, note that with INTJs, this is sort of a one-time thing to get it started. Once the seal is broken, INTJs can be very eager to show affection, albeit perhaps in primitive ways if they don't have a lot of experience with it.

As I said, it of course could be a disaster, but if so it will be a great victory for some other INTJ down the road who will be very happy to find you single.

Oh, and I'm not sure what you had in mind for a letter, but I'd save letter writing for your NF girlfriends.

[Acextreme]

Originally Posted by dreamcatcher To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Tree, I like your advice. I will see him on Thanksgiving and make my move, no questions asked. I guess it is the only way to find out. And yes, "talking" about it never works, because when we did eye contact turned into looking straight down at the table and making hand motions back and forth back and forth over the table, like a child that has just gotten caught stealing gum from the 7-11. Would you, as INTJ's, see writing letters as an ideal situation? And tree, your username is funny. My INTJ is a "tree worker"-he tree climbs as a hobby with equipment and everything and spent a lot of time as a tree care worker. He's a very "Thoreau" Chris McCandless type although he would never admit it. Anyway, what was Chris McCandless' personality type? Thanks again for all of your input, it has been so helpful.

Ok, now that I have read through the entire thread, let's see if I can help a little. Let's start with answering the question you have right now - letters might be a very good option. Actually, anything that's in written form would be good, we express ourselves so much more better through written forms because tone and body language does not play a major part of communication when it's in written form, and these 2 are the biggest pitfalls of INTJs. And another advice, just take what we say literally. Eg: If we say we like you but with a straight poker face and not much of any corresponding supportive body language, that doesn't mean we are lying; it simply means we just are very bad with such stuff. To us, words are the most important thing in communication; now you see why we are so bad in that. Also, we believe action speaks louder than words; the fact that we are even spending time to talk to you means we are interested. I wouldn't even bother talking to a girl unless I like her. Much less initiating a conversation. And talking 4 hours is the SUREST sign we are interested in you unless that's an argument. Period.

And we take a hell of a long time before we entirely commit ourselves, but here's a very rewarding and encouraging thing for you to know: if we finally commit, we are REALLY committed for a lifetime unless the relationship turns really bad, like you slept with someone else when in a relationship? And here's why we take that hell of a long time to decide, we are scared of getting hurt, honestly. To us, emotional hurt is EXTREMELY devastating (even to the point that we feel you had betrayed our trust and feelings for you), that's why we have those 100-inch solid titanium walls erected to prevent anyone from coming in. And we are very reluctant to let anyone in unless we trust them, and it's very hard for us to trust you if you want it fast. After all, if you are genuinely interested in us, you will stake it out. We might have used patience to eliminate those who aren't "genuine" and also to test the commitment. So you really just need to be patient. But I can assure you, it will be worth it in the end because when we give our word to commit, we are commited through life and death literally. That's how much we put weight in such things.

So it's up to you, if you give up right now, this just shows that you lack determination, patience and commitment to work things out, which probably will also mean you would leave us for the slightest reason down in the future. That's probably how we would have analyzed, at least for me. So that's also probably when I dated, most gals got frustrated in the end and assumes that I was just playing around. I got hurt once so badly, that's why ever since, I had not let any gal into my emotional world until it's proven that they can be trusted. Up till now, none has succeeded. How discouraging...

[ElstonGunn]

	Originally Posted by dreamcatcher To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Would you, as INTJ's, see writing letters as an ideal situation?

That's mostly irrelevant to me. The important thing is to make sure that there is no room for any doubt on my part about whether or not you like me, then make it twice as clear in addition to that, and then repeat that process once more after I say that I don't believe you or that I think you've mistaken me for someone else.

[Acextreme]

	Originally Posted by tree To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Good luck. Perhaps get a couple of beers into him first if you can. Also, note that with INTJs, this is sort of a one-time thing to get it started. Once the seal is broken, INTJs can be very eager to show affection, albeit perhaps in primitive ways if they don't have a lot of experience with it.

Well, I can confirm and validate this bit of information as accurate too. It's a one off kind of thing. Once that seal is broken, we can be very eager to show affection indeed. So I would see this as a plus, dreamcatcher. All the best and keep it up, don't give up...I can certainly understand how frustrating it is for you, but good things are worth waiting for, and good things are rare to come by too. And that describes us INTJs almost perfectly, or at least that's what I like to think...rofl!
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[PortInStorm]

As someone who is borderline INTJ/INFJ, and who's had a relationship very much like this one, I suggest having a low tolerance for endless dithering. My experience was that they were unsuitable for a primary relationship, but once the pressure was off (I found an SJ who I later married), the relationship was much better. And I had tried patience, flirting, hard-to-get, heart-to-heart, it didn't matter, there was still no consistency (superhot flame to stranger status) when he was trying to make up his mind about me as a partner. Mind you, he was an ENTP, and they can be a wee bit more... flighty than INTJs.

Oh, and them getting older helps.

[tree]

Port in Storm, with all due respect, whenever I meet someone who suggests that that they have an x for one or both of the two middle letters, especially the T/F, they are really an NF. And your post screams INFJ to me, especially in contrast to INTJs. (I have had more close relationships with INFJs than any other type). I could count at least 8 things in your short post that support that impression. And that doesn't even get started on the roses with the reflecting water ...

INFJs have a powerful streak that they think is cold rationality, and it can look that way on the surface, but the engine that drives it is their emotion. So you'll find some INFJs who think they see part of themselves when they read about INTJs. By contrast, when INTJs meet INFJs, they know instantly that they are talking to a very exciting but very alien creature whose internal ticking is nothing like their own.

[karenk]

Originally Posted by tree To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Port in Storm, with all due respect, whenever I meet someone who suggests that that they have an x for one or both of the two middle letters, especially the T/F, they are really an NF. And your post screams INFJ to me, especially in contrast to INTJs. (I have had more close relationships with INFJs than any other type). I could count at least 8 things in your short post that support that impression. And that doesn't even get started on the roses with the reflecting water ... INFJs have a powerful streak that they think is cold rationality, and it can look that way on the surface, but the engine that drives it is their emotion. So you'll find some INFJs who think they see part of themselves when they read about INTJs. By contrast, when INTJs meet INFJs, they know instantly that they are talking to a very exciting but very alien creature whose internal ticking is nothing like their own.

I got an INFJ impression too. My tests used to come out INTJ. I think it's a common mistyping.

[dreamcatcher]

Hey ...It's been awhile since I've updated this. I've sort of stepped back from analyzing the INTJ aspect of my INTJ. But we've made "progress". I am meeting his family over this weekend, they are in from out of town and he's not seeing any other people in the area. He also offered to come to my house.

Anyway this is a HUGE deal for him. Are there things that you, as INTJ's, are specifically freaked out by in the initial phase of a relationship? (In regards to meeting and spending the day with him and his family) I want to make things as comfortable as possible (for both of us) but right now I think the most important thing is to just put him at ease. So what are things to avoid? I haven't seen him in awhile either.

[Fanowene]

	Originally Posted by dreamcatcher To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Are there things that you, as INTJ's, are specifically freaked out by in the initial phase of a relationship?

Well, so far I've never really come past the initial phase. I've never really been in a relationship. But yes, I am freaked out every time I even come close to seeing that there might be an "initial phase" coming up... At the same time it's exciting and I enjoy it. It just stresses out my brain every time... But hey: I love solving problems.
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( Show Spoiler )

Does that mean that I'm bad at solving problems just because I've never been in a relationship?
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(Nope.
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)

Edit: I'm glad it's going so well for you.

Another edit: Maybe it is true that an INTJ will be more relaxed if he/she knows he/she will not be rushed into anything and that there will be no time pressure?

[OrrDavey]

Family, huh?

I am afraid to show people my family because they are legitimately crazy.

[Lil]

Dreamcatcher, when I read your first post I thought you were me.
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I'm also an INFP in love with an INTJ. You might look at my thread "INTJ wants friends only." I do see this man in person often, which I gather is not the case for you. Also we're much older, and so have gone through many more relationship disasters than y'all. Hope you'll update this thread sometime. I'm interested in how you progress.

[ElstonGunn]

	Originally Posted by dreamcatcher To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Are there things that you, as INTJ's, are specifically freaked out by in the initial phase of a relationship? (In regards to meeting and spending the day with him and his family) I want to make things as comfortable as possible (for both of us) but right now I think the most important thing is to just put him at ease. So what are things to avoid? I haven't seen him in awhile either.

The "initial phases" are about as comfortable as being locked in a box and then thrown into the ocean. Anything involving anyone other than the two people in the relationship bothers me. I don't like it when other people get into my business.

[dreamcatcher]

Well, yesterday went very well. I was greeted with a hug from the mom and very intentional conversations with the family and really cliqued with everything. I got an "I'm sure I'll see you again" from the dad and was side splitting laughing with his family at the dinner table. INTJ? Well, he sat next to me on the couch with shoulders touching. I gave him an antique copy of Huck Finn for his birthday and it seemed to mean a lot to him. We went on a walk alone, but no hooking of arms, no conversation about "where we stand". I guess we spent most of the time with his family, and so I shouldn't be so hard on the guy. But me being an INFP I put all of these emotional expectations upon it a sort of "Now or never" type deal. I left the house feeling frustrated because he didn't do anything direct to make me feel like I could relax and SERIOUSLY all i want to know is that he is ATTRACTED to me. Is that so much to ask? Any sort of romantic context, nothing deep, nothing committed. So I feel good, because he is extremely close with his family and I absolutely loved them and I feel as though from his "rational" mind, me fitting in well means a lot. But whatever. I want moosh gooshy !!!! damn you intjs! Just kidding. Sort of
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dreamcatcher added to this post, 0 minutes and 46 seconds later...

Funny story that was indirectly ironic, I feel as though INTJ's will appreciate this.
The movie "Pump up the Volume"-90's flick? Christian Slater? Anyone? WEll if you haven't seen it you should. But it's about a highly introverted guy who starts a pirate radio station. And this girl pursues him and just basically says "You will love me." She goes into his room without knocking and just takes her shirt off with no previous conversation or even a date. When my INTJ and I discussed this movie I mentioned that the romance in the movie is the part that I don't really care for, because she is so forward and it feels forced, and I used the example of when she takes her shirt off. He said, "well yeah, but it's because she understood that he couldn't do it himself." And i said, "but what if he didn't want her to take her shirt off? She didn't know for sure?" And then there was silence.

[foobar]

Your guy isn't just INTJ; he's very shy and INTJ. Something tells me he's never been in a relationship before, and if you don't push a bit he probably never will.

What you need to do is to be as direct as possible: the next time you're alone with him just say "Can I kiss you?". You're not forcing anything on him -- it's a simple, direct question.

If he goes all red and doesn't know what to say, just calm him down ("Come on, I'll be gentle") and give him the friendliest smile you've ever given. If he says "no," then at least you have closure and you can stop worrying about it.

[OrrDavey]

	"but what if he didn't want her to take her shirt off? She didn't know for sure?"

If you visited a guys family you are so in. Just do it already.

Haha.

Edit:

Ok this is one that I used to use with girls when I wanted to try to kiss them - albeit much earlier than meeting their family.

Just be talking about something when you two are in a private setting and you are close to him. Then just let what you are saying die off mid sentence and keep eye contact with him for a few seconds. Then ask, "Do you want to kiss me?" He will give you one of three responses - yes, maybe and no.

If he says yes, kiss him.

If he says maybe, say, "Well let's find out" and then kiss him.

If he says no, say, "Woah, don't take me so seriously - it just looked like you had something on your mind."

But he is either going to say yes or maybe, so don't even worry about the no answer.

[ricearoni]

Originally Posted by dreamcatcher To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Funny story that was indirectly ironic, I feel as though INTJ's will appreciate this. The movie "Pump up the Volume"-90's flick? Christian Slater? Anyone? WEll if you haven't seen it you should. But it's about a highly introverted guy who starts a pirate radio station. And this girl pursues him and just basically says "You will love me." She goes into his room without knocking and just takes her shirt off with no previous conversation or even a date. When my INTJ and I discussed this movie I mentioned that the romance in the movie is the part that I don't really care for, because she is so forward and it feels forced, and I used the example of when she takes her shirt off. He said, "well yeah, but it's because she understood that he couldn't do it himself." And i said, "but what if he didn't want her to take her shirt off? She didn't know for sure?" And then there was silence.

Heh. I remember that my INTJ friend disliked the movie Amelie because the girl was too chicken to even talk to the guy. So I could totally see why that woman's forwardness would be appreciated.

	Originally Posted by OrrDavey To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you visited a guys family you are so in. Just do it already. Haha.

Yeah, seriously.

[dreamcatcher]

thank you for your words of confidence. (I am not so confident). Hence refraining from attacking his face............maybe someday.

[Anon722]

"please read through it because it is so important to me"

This is no argument for convincing INTJs... sorry.

[ElstonGunn]

	Originally Posted by ricearoni To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Heh. I remember that my INTJ friend disliked the movie Amelie because the girl was too chicken to even talk to the guy. So I could totally see why that woman's forwardness would be appreciated.

I've never seen or heard of that movie, but I bet I'd have the same reaction to it. It would be just about impossible for someone to make it too clear that she's interested in me. I'm not interested in trying to figure it out.

	Originally Posted by OrrDavey To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you visited a guys family you are so in.

I don't even really like it when my friends are around my family, even if it's a friend I've had for ten years and one who I know for sure that my family likes. So if I brought a girl over, that would be a pretty big sign that I'm serious about her.

[dreamcatcher]

I haven't been on here in months... but I just wanted to tell you guys that my INTJ and I are ENGAGED. After all of his slowness, once he decided to DATE me, it was like he never looked back. And when people ask me how I did it, or how I knew to be so patient and wait it out, I just smile.......because without this forum I never would have had done it. So thanks guys.
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[Fanowene]

Originally Posted by dreamcatcher To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I haven't been on here in months... but I just wanted to tell you guys that my INTJ and I are ENGAGED. After all of his slowness, once he decided to DATE me, it was like he never looked back. And when people ask me how I did it, or how I knew to be so patient and wait it out, I just smile.......because without this forum I never would have had done it. So thanks guys. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Congrats!!!

I think the INTJf should have a "Hall of Fame" for successful hookups that wouldn't have happened without people's advice here. But it probably would need a better name. So much frustration... The success has to be in our faces too.

[Lil]

Holy crap! Congratulations!!

You said:

	After all of his slowness, once he decided to DATE me, it was like he never looked back.

What was the trigger that made him decide to "date" you? (If you know.)

How did you know when it happened? Was he explicit, i.e., "I think we should date," or was it more a case of you looked back and said to yourself, "Oh, I guess we're dating now."

How did you know you and he were now dating?

(Did he ever get up the courage to take your shirt off, or did you have to do it?)

Inquiring INFP's really want to know.
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[ricearoni]

Originally Posted by dreamcatcher To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I haven't been on here in months... but I just wanted to tell you guys that my INTJ and I are ENGAGED. After all of his slowness, once he decided to DATE me, it was like he never looked back. And when people ask me how I did it, or how I knew to be so patient and wait it out, I just smile.......because without this forum I never would have had done it. So thanks guys. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Congratulations!!!
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Originally Posted by Lil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

What was the trigger that made him decide to "date" you? (If you know.) How did you know when it happened? Was he explicit, i.e., "I think we should date," or was it more a case of you looked back and said to yourself, "Oh, I guess we're dating now." How did you know you and he were now dating? (Did he ever get up the courage to take your shirt off, or did you have to do it?) Inquiring INFP's really want to know. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This INFJ wants to know too!

[dreamcatcher]

Well ....
part of the problem (which I found out later) was that he was being pursued by 3 other girls (small christian university with bad girl to guy ratio, plus he is 'mysterious' and attractive and seemingly unattainable) So my situation may be a bit different, but I think that it is very similar to a typical INTJ + INFp relationship because his "decision process" was why I went through hell and back and it only complicated things even more for a person who would already be difficult to convince to date you.
(this is for Lil) And that is why I could count the times he called and my friends thought I was insane for reading into every single thing that he did, because to me it was a big deal. He was simply so slow.
The night that everything changed.
He had sent me flowers on Valentine's Day, and I had thought that this was "it" that I didn't have to wonder anymore, etc. But I noticed that his emails were STILL spaced out between one another, even after everything we had been through, I didn't feel like he was mine. He was coming back to our college town after being home for the winter, and we had this weird conversation where I had phoned him to "find out" what time he would get in (when in reality I was just annoyed that he didn't automatically tell me- after all he had SENT me flowers!) I had been so careful up to this point since the initial "do you like me?" confrontation where he had said no that I was afraid to make any moves. But that night, something in me cracked. I had reached my limit. I called him back after we had hung up and said, what is going on? we haven't seen eachother for months, I'm scared you're going to get here and act like nothing has even happened between us.
This is the point when he admitted to me that he had htought that he had "chosen" me but he had been receiving letters from girls that were "distracting" him, and he was annoyed at himself for not being able to "make a decision"
Well, being the self respecting woman that I am, I totally flipped out.
What is this, a bad episode of the fucking bachelor? The problem was that he was being too honest. He quickly backpedaled saying "no I hardly ever think about them, i just wish it hadn't had thrown me off, and it's hard for me to commit, i've been single for 25 years, blah blah blah"
I said, very coolly, alright. I have to draw the line somewhere. And this is it. this is the time. I then explained VERY rationally that I understood he needed time to make a decision, and that the girl that he is supposed to be with will be able to have more patience, but I am afraid, that this is the end of the line for me. I made it very clear that I was not giving him an ultimatum, but that I was just too tired. It had been 8 months of this rollercoaster at this point, and I meant every word I said.
Something in him snapped. He said "well, it would be..I mean..it would be..horrible..if we stopped being friends." I maintained my cool, and said, I just don't know anymore. (the disclosure of other women was too much for me to withstand and that is really what my limit was)- something in him clicked. he stayed up that whole night, couldnt sleep, drove 10 hours to see me, and brought me a letter confessing that I was the best thing that ever happened to him and how grateful he is for me, in an antique wooden purse. Ever since then, I have NEVER even REMOTELY doubted his feelings for me. And I don't think he has EITHER. I really don't. In fact, I probaly have more doubts now than he does. The physical aspect of things was interesting because he had never kissed anyone before so..the answer is - I had to do it.
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And this is my advice for inquiring INFps....and what my GREATEST piece of advice can be....
Be as patient as possible, wait as long as you can possibly wait. When you reach your brink, and you will know when the time has come to throw in the towel.
this worked for me, and I say this for two reasons.
The first is that if you do not reach your own REAL limit then you will probably just make a fool of yourself. As INFps, we are vulnerable to making decisions that we will go back on, and the INTJ will not understand that. To threaten ending something in an emotionally charged way and then say, oh wait, never mind, I forgot I'm madly in love with you and would wait years for you to come around doesn't jive with the INTJ. They'll just think you are a flake.
The second is that you'll be able to walk away in good conscience, knowing you gave it your best try, and them knowing the same thing.
If you do reach your breaking point, explain it to them RATIONALLY. do not lose your cool. I don't think that this is an answer or "how to" win an INTJ, because I know that logically it never should have worked. "He's just not that into you" should have been my mantra. For whatever insane reason, I stuck it out...a lot because of this board...
if you have anymore questions I'm more than happy to answer