[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by Marcus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Blueback, we still have introverted feeling as tertiary function, so we're not that cold inside.

We're not, but logic often supersedes emotions. I know we have the ability to shut down emotions for a certain period of time. However, in my case, the longer I shut down my emotions, the greater it comes back to kick me in the head.

[blueback]

	Originally Posted by Marcus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Blueback, we still have introverted feeling as tertiary function, so we're not that cold inside.

How cold is "that cold?"

I could have included a warning that my opinion might come across as unqualified, but I hoped that the first line would cover that. Oh well. Yes, I understand that everyone is different, even when they think the same way. I also understand that there are more nuances to our INTJ-ness than I included in that summary. I tried to express a nomral curve in a single value so I had to pick the average. The structure of a normal curve dictates that if you understand the area around the average (one standard deviation) you will understand 68% of the population. That means there is a 68% chance that what I said applied to her INTJ. That's close enough for horse shoes and hand grenades.

[iuniperus]

I really wish I had some great insight to give you, but I don't. The best thing I could tell you is what I've personally experienced with INTJs.

I have found that generally INTJs like to make decisions and like to be in control, but at the same time they can be uncharacteristically indecisive about certain things if there is the least bit of doubt. They want to be absolutely sure they're making the right choice before making a decision. So, the cogs are turning in your INTJ's brain; weighing out the pros and cons of the situation in a logically manner. Is this good or bad?

IMO I wouldn't be so patient. Maybe I'm just an overly prideful INFP but the thought putting in all that effort while the INTJ is taking his sweet time deciding is, well, insulting. I wouldn't want someone who had to decide if he likes me or not. There are only two options: you sincerely like me or you don't. There is no "maybe" or "kinda". I wouldn't want to waste my time on anyone who didn't genuinely like me, and I wouldn't string along anyone who I didn't really like as well.

[Menosthenes]

IMO I wouldn't be so patient. Maybe I'm just an overly prideful INFP but the thought putting in all that effort while the INTJ is taking his sweet time deciding is, well, insulting. I wouldn't want someone who had to decide if he likes me or not. There are only two options: you sincerely like me or you don't. There is no "maybe" or "kinda". I wouldn't want to waste my time on anyone who didn't genuinely like me, and I wouldn't string along anyone who I didn't really like as well.

Reading the OP's story, it seems as if the INTJ here has also recognized that, and ironically it seems this only adds to his indecisiveness; because even if it was a "kinda yes", he seems to realize that the "kinda" is a bit insulting.

I get this thought from here:

	he hadn't decided yet if he wanted to pursue me and that he thought I deserved more than that and that was why he didn't say "yes"-

[Marcus]

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How cold is "that cold?"

Your advice was OK, I just found the overall tone of your post a bit exaggerated: Beware, we don't have emotions, if you don't like that then you shouldn't bother.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We're not, but logic often supersedes emotions. I know we have the ability to shut down emotions for a certain period of time. However, in my case, the longer I shut down my emotions, the greater it comes back to kick me in the head.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by iuniperus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

IMO I wouldn't be so patient. Maybe I'm just an overly prideful INFP but the thought putting in all that effort while the INTJ is taking his sweet time deciding is, well, insulting. I wouldn't want someone who had to decide if he likes me or not. There are only two options: you sincerely like me or you don't. There is no "maybe" or "kinda". I wouldn't want to waste my time on anyone who didn't genuinely like me, and I wouldn't string along anyone who I didn't really like as well.

But you experience/interpret the world differently. INTJs keep emotions under control unless they are convinced it's safe to follow them. For us, it's more difficult to recover emotionally if we make a mistake there. And how can you love someone sincerely if you don't know him/her fully? You can love an idealized image of someone, but that's not the real person.

And why is it a problem that we need time to decide? Do you prefer flipping from one bad relationship to another?

[blueback]

	Originally Posted by Marcus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Your advice was OK, I just found the overall tone of your post a bit exaggerated: Beware, we don't have emotions, if you don't like that then you shouldn't bother.

I figured that was the biggest risk. INTJs are pretty competent in every other area, or can become so with a little effort.

I figured someone who didn't intuitively understand us would need to have their attention focused for them. Like, "No, really, the emotions thing is going to be weird. Seriously, you have no idea." Etc. She won't care about whether or not he has emotions as much as she'll care about how he makes her feel. Since feelings depend, to a large extent, on perceptions I thought it was important that she have the correct perception.

It seemed to me that the greatest potential for dissatisfaction with the arrangement would be when she got the relationship started and expected him to suddenly start being emotional (like most people would). So I tried to foxus her attention on the fact that that probably wouldn't happen in a way she was used to seeing.

[Marcus]

I suddenly start being emotional in a relationship. At least versus the partner. Of course, I won't start pouring food into Africa.

[dreamcatcher]

Haha, I think this whole notion of "pouring food over Africa" is hilarious. I did not know that emotion = pouring food over Africa. Ohhh you INTJ's you
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Thanks for everyone's responses, it has been really helpful. I think I've realized that I do need to let go, because regardless of whether or not he is interested he obviously does not reciprocate my intensity of feelings and in order to preserve my dignity and maintain sanity I do need to let go. Whether or not that means losing an INTJ, we have yet to tell, but if it does, maybe I'm just not going to be the girl to break him out of his shell.

This is all easier said than done, of course. But your responses have truly been a reality check and I thank you for that.

[blueback]

As they say: It's not you, it's him. It's not that there aren't a lot of people who could be happy with you, it's that there aren't very many people who could be happy with him.

[Marcus]

I think you might have misunderstood it. We do have feelings, and they can be as much intense as yours. But we don't express them so lightly. I wonder about the intensity of your feelings if you let yourself sway by a couple of post in a forum.

[SimplyOtter]

Dear Dreamcatcher, I've been where you are now, with the same doubts and painful confusion; the conclusion I have reached, in one year time, is that both of these people are right:

Originally Posted by iuniperus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I really wish I had some great insight to give you, but I don't. The best thing I could tell you is what I've personally experienced with INTJs. I have found that generally INTJs like to make decisions and like to be in control, but at the same time they can be uncharacteristically indecisive about certain things if there is the least bit of doubt. They want to be absolutely sure they're making the right choice before making a decision. So, the cogs are turning in your INTJ's brain; weighing out the pros and cons of the situation in a logically manner. Is this good or bad? IMO I wouldn't be so patient. Maybe I'm just an overly prideful INFP but the thought putting in all that effort while the INTJ is taking his sweet time deciding is, well, insulting. I wouldn't want someone who had to decide if he likes me or not. There are only two options: you sincerely like me or you don't. There is no "maybe" or "kinda". I wouldn't want to waste my time on anyone who didn't genuinely like me, and I wouldn't string along anyone who I didn't really like as well.

Originally Posted by Marcus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

But you experience/interpret the world differently. INTJs keep emotions under control unless they are convinced it's safe to follow them. For us, it's more difficult to recover emotionally if we make a mistake there. And how can you love someone sincerely if you don't know him/her fully? You can love an idealized image of someone, but that's not the real person. And why is it a problem that we need time to decide? Do you prefer flipping from one bad relationship to another?

INTJ's show feelings and emotions in a completely different way. It's misleading thinking that they don't care, it's misleading thinking that they care. The true question is: how this makes you feel?
The only way an emotional INFP can handle a deep feeling for an INTJ is with something very unnatural for us, with detachment. It doesn't mean coldness. It means just detachment. Enough to preserve that pride of ours.

I write you just very few things as they are the only ones I am quite sure of. The rest is still a big mistery. But it's a mistery that has changed my life, this is how deep it is.

Be strong.
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[Marcus]

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As they say: It's not you, it's him.

I'd say, it always takes two to dance.

[dreamcatcher]

Hmmmmmm...Marcus, I understood what you were saying. It just reminds me of my INTJ in this way of generalizing things, so that people who are interested in world hunger are all "pouring food over Africa" --not necessarily that I did not understand what you were saying, more that I thought it was funny because it reminds me so much of this guy. And also, my intensity of feelings is sort of insulting to be questioned.. being "swayed" by a few people in a forum is not really what is happening, I think that what I have feared all along was further reinforced. And anyway, I will probably change my mind in an hour. I am an INFP, after all.

[Marcus]

	Originally Posted by dreamcatcher To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It just reminds me of my INTJ in this way of generalizing things, so that people who are interested in world hunger are all "pouring food over Africa"

I used that example to respond to blueback. It's not the way I view this question.

	Originally Posted by dreamcatcher To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And also, my intensity of feelings is sort of insulting to be questioned..

Actually, you questioning the intensity of the feelings of INTJs was insulting, too.

I just tried to help you and this is what I get.

[dreamcatcher]

Touche.

[ArgentOunce]

Originally Posted by dreamcatcher To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think I've realized that I do need to let go, because regardless of whether or not he is interested he obviously does not reciprocate my intensity of feelings and in order to preserve my dignity and maintain sanity I do need to let go. Whether or not that means losing an INTJ, we have yet to tell, but if it does, maybe I'm just not going to be the girl to break him out of his shell. This is all easier said than done, of course. But your responses have truly been a reality check and I thank you for that.

For your own sake & dignity it's better to let go your INTJ if you aren't capable of resist the way of life that is particular to us. We aren't emotional people, we don't like the unnecessary, and for us they are occasions that physical contact is not logical at the moment; this not means that we don't appreciate contact, we do. We, construct moments to do it, thought. As we have a pretty solid shell, that not breaks by force. Emotions to us are so hard to analyse, we need patience, a lot, to fully understand the meanings of love, even the most simple things are real complex and long challenges to resolve. We think that we feel, not feel what we think. My advice is to be more strategic, you need to win the game, but, of course, your INTJ got to be agree with losing.

P.S. It's hard to admit it, but we need instructions to understand relationships. Take note of this.

[dreamcatcher]

ArgentOunce, you hit on what I have detected.
I feel as though I am trying to win someone over.
My question is this: does it sound like he is interested?
This I have gotten mixed responses on.
I am willing to fight for this man, and what I have said has been misinterpreted, perhaps I have not correctly represented what has happened between us...I guess it is so complicated that I am not even sure.
I just don't want to fight for someone who doesn't want to be fought for. It's not necessarily a matter of not feeling intense enough feelings for him, or underestimating his ability to love, or whatever--it is just that I don't know how far to press this.
What you said, ArgentOunce, feels completely true. It is a matter of convincing him.
I will give you an example.
After we had the weird conversations about what was going on between us, I brought boxes over for him to help him move, and we had probably the best conversation I've ever had in my life. If you can call it "intellectual sex" that is entirely what it was. It was amazing. And a couple of times, he made eye contact with me in a way that I know him sell enough to know that it was almost a "surprise"-he was taken aback by what he saw in me. This sounds weird, and I can't explain it to my friends, but perhaps to INTJ's you will understand. A few days later he wrote me and told me how "shocked" he was by my patience with him and how sorry he was that he couldn't express his gratitude for my friendship. But these things that he says, they are so few and far between, and if he writes me too often-say twice in one day-then it is almost like I know that he won't write for another four or five days. Indecisiveness or being scared out of his wits? Interest or infatuation and addicted to our ability to connect? I guess that asking people these questions because he is the same "type" is like asking a magic 8 ball, and I somehow hoped for a clear answer, and I am so frustrated by the situation....and Marcus, I have changed my mind already just writing this
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[blueback]

Maybe approaching it from a different perspective will help.

Based on what you have said so far (which isn't much) he is interested in you. Also, I'm going to have to describe this from my perspective so, assuming he thinks the same way I do, this would apply.

For me, the idea of compromise is hard to take. I don't compromise my standards for myself, so why would I compromise my standards for the second closest person to me? A committed relationship sounds like a great thing only as long as it's with the right person. If the person falls short I can't see myself "trying" because it would be a waste of time. People don't change. So whatever they are is whatever they will be, just with more years on them. If what they are isn't enough, then it will never be enough, so why bother?

I have several beatiful female friends who I have absolutely no interest in pursuing, or even allowing, a relationship with. By beautiful I mean all the way around, inside and out, they are the whole package. The reason I am interested in them as friends is that they are good people, the reason I have no interest beyond friendship is I know they aren't right for me. If they came on to me I would have a hard time not sleeping with them, and if that's all they wanted I'd consider it, but if they wanted a relationship I would have no trouble explaining why I wouldn't even "try" it.

This dichotomy in my mind is the result of my standards. When someone meets my standards they are "cleared" and can come and go as they please. I will even seek them out on occasion. But there are levels of clearance and the standards get exponentially higher the closer they get to me. However, I haven't met the woman yet who has made it possible for me to consider committing to her.

The standards get so high, especially for a significant other, because I take my promises very seriously. As far as the laws of physics allow, my word is my bond, which means I don't give my word very often. It is too limiting. If I was in a relationship with a woman that I knew I was not going to be able to stay with forever, not only would I have a hard time staying with her at all, but I'd have a hard time not clearly explaining to her that I was going to leave at some point (probably sooner rather than later). In my mind I can't help but picture a future in which I have promised to stay with a woman who sort of qualified, but then either she regresses or I meet a woman who truly does qualify. Where does that put me? I can't help it. This is how my mind works.

Even when I'm interested in starting a relationship with a woman I am thinking the same things. I am trying to figure out whether or not I'd be a bad person for drawing her into a relationship, realizing it wasn't good enough, and then watching her cry as I explain that I'm not going to stay with her. I understand that all actions involve some level of risk, and relationships more than most, but I'm still responsible for the effects of my actions. You can't start a relationship with the line: "I'm attracted to you. I'd like us to be closer. Do you want to give it a try? Also, I reserve the right to alter this agreement at any time, for any reason." I just can't help but think that it would be kinder to bear my own suffering for wondering what could have been then to inflict suffering when it turns out not to be.

So, to sum up, what I mean is that he's probably interested in you but he's too busy thinking to realize that relationships cannot be forecasted. My standing rule for people who are interested in another person, and have no obvious reason to know it won't work, is to just give it a try.

[ArgentOunce]

Originally Posted by dreamcatcher To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

ArgentOunce, you hit on what I have detected. I feel as though I am trying to win someone over. My question is this: does it sound like he is interested? This I have gotten mixed responses on. I am willing to fight for this man, and what I have said has been misinterpreted, perhaps I have not correctly represented what has happened between us...I guess it is so complicated that I am not even sure. I just don't want to fight for someone who doesn't want to be fought for. It's not necessarily a matter of not feeling intense enough feelings for him, or underestimating his ability to love, or whatever--it is just that I don't know how far to press this. What you said, ArgentOunce, feels completely true. It is a matter of convincing him. I will give you an example. After we had the weird conversations about what was going on between us, I brought boxes over for him to help him move, and we had probably the best conversation I've ever had in my life. If you can call it "intellectual sex" that is entirely what it was. It was amazing. And a couple of times, he made eye contact with me in a way that I know him sell enough to know that it was almost a "surprise"-he was taken aback by what he saw in me. This sounds weird, and I can't explain it to my friends, but perhaps to INTJ's you will understand. A few days later he wrote me and told me how "shocked" he was by my patience with him and how sorry he was that he couldn't express his gratitude for my friendship. But these things that he says, they are so few and far between, and if he writes me too often-say twice in one day-then it is almost like I know that he won't write for another four or five days. Indecisiveness or being scared out of his wits? Interest or infatuation and addicted to our ability to connect? I guess that asking people these questions because he is the same "type" is like asking a magic 8 ball, and I somehow hoped for a clear answer, and I am so frustrated by the situation....and Marcus, I have changed my mind already just writing this To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm glad that my opinion helps.

I assure you that he's interested in you. Talking about the frequency of writing, I'll give you an example too: For us, things work precisely, our day is the sum of the acts we plan for the day. Every thing sums in another list that also needs to be complete, if he write two times a week, let's say monday and friday, the next week he'll write two times also, but maybe different days. If he didn't write, the next week for sure he will write four times, or repay it in another form of communication. For us, things have equivalents because we focus more in the essence that in the way of doing it. We are perfectionist, so, in the better case, he is cooking the best words to you. In this matter, don't pressure him, because we need time to make our objective executed in the most perfect and precise form.

Also I invite you to note that we are very hard to impress, so, if you had impressed him, cheers! you are scoring points.

Remember what I said about "Constructing moments for intimacy"? I bet that the move-moment is one of these.

The short and dangerous way to win a INTJ heart is the way of natural impression.

Advice number two: Get/wait/provoke more intellectual sex with him =)

[Sinequanon]

Originally Posted by dreamcatcher To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

ArgentOunce, you hit on what I have detected. I feel as though I am trying to win someone over. My question is this: does it sound like he is interested? This I have gotten mixed responses on. I am willing to fight for this man, and what I have said has been misinterpreted, perhaps I have not correctly represented what has happened between us...I guess it is so complicated that I am not even sure. I just don't want to fight for someone who doesn't want to be fought for. It's not necessarily a matter of not feeling intense enough feelings for him, or underestimating his ability to love, or whatever--it is just that I don't know how far to press this. What you said, ArgentOunce, feels completely true. It is a matter of convincing him. I will give you an example. After we had the weird conversations about what was going on between us, I brought boxes over for him to help him move, and we had probably the best conversation I've ever had in my life. If you can call it "intellectual sex" that is entirely what it was. It was amazing. And a couple of times, he made eye contact with me in a way that I know him sell enough to know that it was almost a "surprise"-he was taken aback by what he saw in me. This sounds weird, and I can't explain it to my friends, but perhaps to INTJ's you will understand. A few days later he wrote me and told me how "shocked" he was by my patience with him and how sorry he was that he couldn't express his gratitude for my friendship. But these things that he says, they are so few and far between, and if he writes me too often-say twice in one day-then it is almost like I know that he won't write for another four or five days. Indecisiveness or being scared out of his wits? Interest or infatuation and addicted to our ability to connect? I guess that asking people these questions because he is the same "type" is like asking a magic 8 ball, and I somehow hoped for a clear answer, and I am so frustrated by the situation....and Marcus, I have changed my mind already just writing this To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haha, that's why I love INFPs, so decisive, for a moment, at least.
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Your relationship sounds really distant to me, though, from reading over your OP again. How often do you see each other? How often is it possible to see each other? Maybe you need to step up the in-person visits and lower the email relationship?

[Marcus]

	Originally Posted by dreamcatcher To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you can call it "intellectual sex" that is entirely what it was.

That seems to be the right term. Do INFPs always talk about their sex lives in public?

I think you should resolve the question IRL.

[tree]

I'm an INTJ in my mid-30s. Personally, I think INFP women are god's gift to INTJs.

You mentioned something about waiting for him to make a first move. If your INTJ friend has not had a lot of serious relationships, I'd recommend that you forget about gender stereotypes and consider making that move yourself. And not a small or subtle one. INTJ men are very confident about many things, but starting relationships often isn't one of them. It isn't something to have a discussion with him about either, as it sounds like you have found. INTJs would withdraw in that kind of conversation because they might not be comfortable. But if you, ahem, make him comfortable, with very unsubtle cues of your feelings, that's the way you'll find out.

I have never spoken to a woman for 4 hours that I would not have slept with right there and then (pre being married) if she threw me on the bed and got it started. But more often than not I left the room without a kiss because I wouldn't make that first move.

If you get into a relationship, just know that INTJs often don't like to do things they aren't good at, and they think that providing emotional support isn't something they are good at. They'll learn eventually that they need to get good at it if they want to have and keep an NF spouse. But early on, you should have modest expectations about the emotional support he will provide. But in the long term, don't settle for that. Help him understand that he needs to learn how and that it is OK to be bad at it at first.

[ElstonGunn]

	Originally Posted by iuniperus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There are only two options: you sincerely like me or you don't. There is no "maybe" or "kinda". I wouldn't want to waste my time on anyone who didn't genuinely like me, and I wouldn't string along anyone who I didn't really like as well.

True, but only if you base you relationship decisions solely on whether or not you like someone. I personally think they're way, way more to it than that. I could like someone a gajillion points on a Scale of Liking and still not want a relationship with her because of other reasons. For example, she's married, or she's too far away, or there's a big age gap, or different beliefs, or anything like that. You could probably make the argument that if something like that bothers me, then I don't like her, but a lot of these things don't have anything to do with who she is as an individual.

	Originally Posted by SimplyOtter To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	INTJ's show feelings and emotions in a completely different way. It's misleading thinking that they don't care, it's misleading thinking that they care. The true question is: how this makes you feel?

I'd suggest that any non-INTJ (or non-NT in general) who is interested in one of us should copy this and staple it to their forehead. If you want to think we're bad people because we're not like you fine, but don't impugn our capability to feel things just because we express them differently than most people do. If you can recognize that, accept it, and deal with it, you stand a much better chance of getting along with one of us in a romantic relationship.

	Originally Posted by tree To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You mentioned something about waiting for him to make a first move. If your INTJ friend has not had a lot of serious relationships, I'd recommend that you forget about gender stereotypes and consider making that move yourself. And not a small or subtle one. INTJ men are very confident about many things, but starting relationships often isn't one of them.

I'm pretty sure you're me. Or you have the ability to read my mind, because I don't disagree with one iota of what you're saying here. My point being that I'd recommend following this advice as well, wherever it may be applicable.

[tree]

Two follow-up points to my prior comment. First, by "unsubtle cues," I don't mean things an INFP would find unsubtle. I mean things a five year old boy would find unsubtle. In other words, don't kiss him for five seconds and then pull back and ask whether this is what he wants. Don't even hesitate for a second until his pants are off, your shirt is off, or he has firmly said to stop at least twice.

And yes, my advice could be a disaster, but it is the only way you'll find out.

[blueback]

	Originally Posted by tree To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Don't even hesitate for a second until his pants are off, your shirt is off, or he has firmly said to stop at least twice.

I think we can all agree the world would be a better place if all girls followed this advice.