[thod]

I needed to find my sceptic tank for an upcoming inspection. I had no idea where it was and there was no surface indications on the lawns around my house. Thus I called in an old drainage guy hoping to find it. He walked around my lawns, in each direction, with a set of divining rods and when they crossed, he reckoned he had found it. Then we probed down about a meter (3 or 4 feet) and there it was exactly where he said it was.

Now I know that this technique has been shown to be false in tests. However his resulting first time hit was impressive. Do you think he just knows, from prior experience, where such tanks are likely to be? That the rods were theatre for my benefit? When I tried it with his rods they didn't move at all.

[CreepyCrawly]

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	sceptic tank

Ha.

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Now I know that this technique has been shown to be false in tests. However his resulting first time hit was impressive. Do you think he just knows, from prior experience, where such tanks are likely to be? That the rods were theatre for my benefit? When I tried it with his rods they didn't move at all.

You've sorted it out yourself, evidently. He knows from experience where the things are placed, and went with it. If it can be scientifically explained, why bother going beyond Occam's razor?

[Warrior]

I'm usually pretty skeptical about these sorts of things, but I have seen my dad (an electrician) use to pieces of wire to locate buried cables exactly like you described. I still wonder how much it "really" works, but he found hundreds of buried wires over the years and never dug into any. He got a a decent amount of false positives and found a number of water lines, but it seemed to serve his purpose of not cutting through anything.

[Feral]

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	sceptic tank

Sorry, I lol'd, too.
Skeptic tank.

I've been terribly curious about this lately myself. My mom has always been a bit of a moonbat, but she's offered to teach me to dowse for water. I'm always somewhat skeptical of these things, as there's no scientific evidence, but I've only ever heard first hand experiences being good. Another thing that make me wonder, is of all of the people who would usually be the first to cry witch and spaz out about something like that, I know a lot of grizzled old cowboys who still totally swear by it.

It's pretty weird.

[RBM]

The tool isn't doing the divining, his consciousness is.

It's no different than tarot cards or throwing bones in a pile. Divination is possible because individual consciousness exist in a virtual reality of which consciousness is fundamental.

[ManWithNoName]

They've tested this under scientific conditions and have pretty much found it to be bunk. The diviners are either good natural land surveyors due to experience and things or are just pretty much guessing.

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The tool isn't doing the divining, his consciousness is. It's no different than tarot cards or throwing bones in a pile. Divination is possible because individual consciousness exist in a virtual reality of which consciousness is fundamental.

Can you elaborate on this? How his consciousness is divining the answer? and what exactly you mean by that in terms of this situation and how it would work?

---------- Post added 05-02-2012 at 05:05 PM ----------

Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I needed to find my sceptic tank for an upcoming inspection. I had no idea where it was and there was no surface indications on the lawns around my house. Thus I called in an old drainage guy hoping to find it. He walked around my lawns, in each direction, with a set of divining rods and when they crossed, he reckoned he had found it. Then we probed down about a meter (3 or 4 feet) and there it was exactly where he said it was.

Also, how big is your yard and how big is your septic tank?

Realistically the septic tank is supposed to be what, at least 10-15 feet away from the house? And you want it to be in an area where the land slopes away from the house?

[EdR]

Originally Posted by Warrior To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm usually pretty skeptical about these sorts of things, but I have seen my dad (an electrician) use to pieces of wire to locate buried cables exactly like you described. I still wonder how much it "really" works, but he found hundreds of buried wires over the years and never dug into any. He got a a decent amount of false positives and found a number of water lines, but it seemed to serve his purpose of not cutting through anything.

Like Warrior, I'm a pretty skeptical person. But when I lived in Tenn. I worked with a chap whose father was a dowser. He swore by his father's ability, and I witnessed it myself several times. I saw Ron's father find pipes, wires and also dowse for water before people drilled for wells. He didn't even use special sticks to dowse. He used straightened coat hangers!!!!

One time, a woman had him dowse for a well but her husband decided to rely on the well diggers expertise. After 400' of drilling and only finding a trickle, the well drillers moved to the spot identified by dowsing and found a great flow at a fairly shallow level.

I have seen dowsing debunked and I'm not completely convinced either way. But if a skilled dowser told me drill somewhere, that sure is where I would start.

[BuShinJu]

Oh oh oh,
It's magic you know
Never believe its not soooooooooo

[Ghostwheel]

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The tool isn't doing the divining, his consciousness is. It's no different than tarot cards or throwing bones in a pile. Divination is possible because individual consciousness exist in a virtual reality of which consciousness is fundamental.

I wish you wouldn't be so enigmatic. Can you offer us some explication and perhaps sources that led you to this belief?

I'm not interested in arguing against the point; it could be true for all I know. It would be pretty damn neat-o if it were true. But it's hard to catch on to what you're saying when you're so terse.

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by Ghostwheel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I wish you wouldn't be so enigmatic. Can you offer us some explication and perhaps sources that led you to this belief? I'm not interested in arguing against the point; it could be true for all I know. It would be pretty damn neat-o if it were true. But it's hard to catch on to what you're saying when you're so terse.

Ghostwheel, I understand your pain with my terseness but you are a johnny-come-lately compared to me and in my early times profuse posting to this board on this topic. Amanwithnoname, on the other hand has likely seen many of my posts on the topic, so I don't know why he even asks.

Try the INTJf thread
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The answer is yes. Post #18 has two links that will offer follow up information. The two authors mentioned came up with the VR conjecture independently initially. Then contact and study or each others work has resulted in Brian using Tom's work in his following papers and Tom refers to Brian's work in his workshops. Nick Bostrom and Ed Fredkin have also each written on the topic of the VR.

In addition PlatoHagel just posted a new thread titled
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which is about Tom's work.

My short answer for this thread is the consciousness is picking up a data stream from the
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to find the location of whatever object the discoverer has in mind(intent).

I have no idea what your level of understanding is, so my answer and links may still be terse to you. At some point one has to take the initiative to find out for themselves. I have many, many hours doing just this.

Edit to add:

In the common lexicon 'divination' is considered paranormal. The following is an excerpt for a 800+ page TOE (theory of everything) that may give some a bigger and better handle to grasp:

Paranormal events are natural artifacts of the nature of consciousness and represent the normal activity of the nonphysical energy that is consciousness. For this reason, they sometimes violate PMR causality rules and are vehemently denied by those ensnared within the familiar and comforting grip of widely accepted scientific or cultural beliefs that are based on the exclusivity of our local physical reality.

[roninpro]

I tried to get myself not to read this thread, because I knew that I would see some posts of complete and total nonsense. My expectations were fulfilled.

I'm not going to spend my time refuting claims of divination or dowsing abilities, because it would probably fall on deaf ears anyway. Instead, I'm just going to quote xkcd on this one:


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I seriously invite anybody who believes in these "supernatural phenomena" to answer this.

[thod]

	My short answer for this thread is the consciousness is picking up a data stream from the To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. to find the location of whatever object the discoverer has in mind(intent).

You are not the first to come up with this theory as an explanation for what would normally be called intuition. There is some kind of giant cosmic database or encyclopaedia, that from time to time your mind is able to access. You could call it the book of judgement if you like. The problem is that you cannot access it at will. If you could you would have a superpower. Nor has any machine been built that can access it. There are those who try to find an access mechanism via meditation, yet they never seem to offer verifiable facts. Instead we are asked to believe that they are so 'spiritually developed' that we are asking the wrong questions. One has to be very wary of self-deception in all this. The most likely explanation is that you have observed some subconscious process and attributed it to something external. I am reminded of things like 'deja vu'.

Still, it would make a good sci-fi story. You could have a spaceship reach an alien planet. Create perfect bodies and fill them by selecting the most virtuous people in history from the cosmic book. Perhaps call the planet 'Heaven' and have 144,000 of them.

[PlatoHagel]

I am not sure if any of you have had similar experiences where you use this ability? A good writer perhaps who uses characters to bring a readers mind to a certain conclusion?


Let's say it is much like in dreaming where you set up the conditions for explanatory conditions of probable futures, where the mind is used to intently look into things you might not of ever considered before? Unconsciously, it is as if you are harboring a thought process intently throughout the day and such constructive criticism for future ventures are displayed according to the place in which your mind has been occupied all day?

The subject of intent needs to be looked at quite deeply as to show, this sets the conditions for how we can meet those probable futures. Who is observing?


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[FruitLoop]

If your back yard isn't that big, it's pretty obvious where the septic tank has to go. An experienced person will pick this immediately.

[thod]

	Originally Posted by FruitLoop To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If your back yard isn't that big, it's pretty obvious where the septic tank has to go. An experienced person will pick this immediately.

Its set in its own 3 acre field. Granted, the tank will be near the house to avoid additional piping costs.

[Zodd]

I have a divine rod, at least that's what my mom tells me it is. Everytime it gets in touch with warm water it gets bigger. It's pretty consistent but sometimes it gets bigger without warm water. Like a few days ago, I was just watching Game of Thrones and for no reason I'm aware of it got bigger.
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[PlatoHagel]

While septic tank location can most always been located quite easily lets disregard the means how this can be located? The issue is about divination rods. Yes? The "tools" are quite obvious.
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Scrying is actively used by many cultures and belief systems and is not limited to one tradition or ideology. As of 2009, Ganzfeld experiments, a sensory deprivation experiment inspired by scrying, provides the best known experimental setting for detecting psi abilities in the laboratory. Like other aspects of divination and parapsychology, scrying is not supported by mainstream science as a method of predicting the future or otherwise seeing events that are not physically observable. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You understand the folklore, yes? You understand that science does not support it?

So how do you have a serious discussion?

[Kisai]

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ghostwheel, I understand your pain with my terseness but you are a johnny-come-lately compared to me and in my early times profuse posting to this board on this topic.

Translation: "I don't have an explanation, and I'll give you a snow job of pretending to be an authority if pressed."

[Weltschmerzer]

Did anyone see the latest "Criminal Minds" episode?

[PlatoHagel]

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Why Intentional Blindness?

	Intentional behavior can also be just thoughtful and deliberate goal-directedness. Recent research in experimental philosophy has shown that other factors may also matter for whether or not an action is counted as intentional.

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	Other experimental philosophers have approached the topic of consciousness by trying to uncover the cognitive processes that guide everyday attributions of conscious states.

So you see a simple question about divination Rods can be a complex answer to a simple process. It is even better when you can find examples where you yourself have had such a process. Just don't classify it as something so mysterious when we are quite capable without applying such mystic to things that are ripe for understanding as the capabilities of what consciousness can do.

[Thinktress]

Jesus. Anyone who has seen a lot of septic tanks can look at a yard and tell you the best place to put one - and where the lines would run out. And unless you had a complete moron as a builder, that's going to be where it is. The guy using the divination rods may actually have convinced himself that the rods tell him, really though, it's just his knowledge and intuition.

---------- Post added 05-08-2012 at 02:52 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's no different than tarot cards or throwing bones in a pile.

That part, at least, is true.
Quackery.

[FindItFixIt]

Originally Posted by roninpro To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I tried to get myself not to read this thread, because I knew that I would see some posts of complete and total nonsense. My expectations were fulfilled. I'm not going to spend my time refuting claims of divination or dowsing abilities, because it would probably fall on deaf ears anyway. Instead, I'm just going to quote xkcd on this one: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I seriously invite anybody who believes in these "supernatural phenomena" to answer this.

Who's to say they ARE NOT?? Although only a few items in the first column are noteworthy, IMHO. Dowsing is one of them. Live in an area where wells are a must and I wouldn't be surprised if the local drilling company employs a dowser or two.

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You are not the first to come up with this theory as an explanation for what would normally be called intuition. There is some kind of giant cosmic database or encyclopaedia, that from time to time your mind is able to access. You could call it the book of judgement if you like. The problem is that you cannot access it at will. If you could you would have a superpower....

Can't resist this one:
In many of the more relaxed civilizations on the Outer Eastern Rim of the Galaxy, the Hitchhiker's Guide has already supplanted the great Encyclopaedia Galactica as the standard repository of all knowledge and wisdom, for though it has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least wildly inaccurate, it scores over the older, more pedestrian work in two important respects. First, it is slightly cheaper; and second, it has the words "DON'T PANIC" inscribed in large friendly letters on its cover.
—Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

A must-read for all INTJ's. It will answer all your questions about life, the universe and everything.

[RBM]

For those who haven't closed their minds to new information, or even old information, that think they know 'science' here's a youtube playlist of a video,
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:

Martin Peniak, the generator and presenter of this film has have collected lots of scientifically provable evidence showing that our mind, our consciousness is connected to all matter and it can act on it instantaneously. This evidence was presented in K KLUB (28/08/2009 at 18:00), Detva, Slovakia. He is a PhD candidate at the University of Plymouth doing research in the field of artificial intelligence. "Just sometimes realising that my existence is a coincidence of 50trillion cells working in a perfection to create me and my consciousness that is self-conscious. Certainly a coincidental by-product of matter that has been shown to be illusion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. " - Martin Peniak

Martin's additional efforts include:


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This research in developing an autonomous Mars rover started as my final year undergraduate project. The main deliverable of this project was only a 3d physical model of a Mars rover, however, things were going better than expected so we started additional work to make the rover autonomous. We have also researched different ways to tackle obstacle avoidance, which can be found in Adaptive Sensing and Active Vision subsections.

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I am doing PhD research in composition of actions and language for iTalk project, which aims to develop artificial embodied agents able to acquire complex behavioural, cognitive, and linguistic skills through individual and social learning. I have started the development of Aquila software that aims to be a toolkit for cognitive robotics research accelerated through the supercomputing power of NVidia CUDA capable cards. This has attracted the attention of NVidia team that asked me to write this article, which is featured on their website. Aquila implements a special type of neural network based on Jun Tani Multiple Time Scales Recurrent Neural Network (MTRNN) model with different types of neurons that allow the network to emerge a functional hierarchical structure able to represent motor primitives and combine them into novel sequences of actions. The image on the left shows the iCub humanoid robot controlled by Aquila's multiple time scales recurrent neural network system. The video below demonstrates how Aquila trains and runs this system to control th iCub in real time.

All of this takes Martin deep into the study of how consciousness works.