[Purgatid]

	Originally Posted by Anza To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Of course not, but this applies to everything. Better (in my opinion) food, music, posts... The parenthesis is unnecessary.

Not on these forums. : /

[zibber]

Favorite hobbies of Western ethnocentrists:

1. Judge every other civilization, past and present, by Western standards.

2. If someone demonstrates the worth of some past civilization, quickly shift to a "but where are they now??" narrative. (Because, of course, a) "Western civilization" consists of one coherent historical line and b) the only reason civilizations ever disappear is because they aren't worthy of existing.)

Yawn yawn. Transparent. Think of new shit.

[Anza]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Favorite hobbies of Western ethnocentrists: 1. Judge every other civilization, past and present, by Western standards.

Well, if one is to judge civilizations at all (looking at both their strengths and weaknesses seems more wise) then what standards should a western person use? I'd go with... His own! These standards are obviously influenced by the era and place in which this person was born, but there is not much we can do about this unfortunate fact is there?

[Hydro]

Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Favorite hobbies of Western ethnocentrists: 1. Judge every other civilization, past and present, by Western standards. 2. If someone demonstrates the worth of some past civilization, quickly shift to a "but where are they now??" narrative. (Because, of course, a) "Western civilization" consists of one coherent historical line and b) the only reason civilizations ever disappear is because they aren't worthy of existing.) Yawn yawn. Transparent. Think of new shit.

Favorite hobby of Western equalists:

Repeat claiming that there would be no worse culture than their very own which makes their existence possible.

Well, maybe there is some truth in it when that culture tolerates such behavior...
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There are differences in cultures and denying it is foolish! What else is the motor behind immigration?

[Tactical Panda]

Better for what, exactly?

[peppersasen]

I can't believe I forgot to mention this. It's precisely the point:

	Originally Posted by sunitaishot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I get tired of some parts of the world being backward. Why do we continually grant them aid?

Because the most "backward" nations get colonized:
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Often, the belief that some cultures are "backward" is the foundation of aid and development programmes. Thing is, sometimes the people they're trying to help don't really need any. Like introducing currency to a cashless/barter economy (if you can call it "having an economy" at all). Money gets wasted because people try to fix cultures that aren't even broken. They also don't bother understanding the culture before they make moves or they don't know when something is wrong in a current modern system (like governance) and they think everything's all good when it's not. Ex: A country's AIDS bureau (a commission, health ministry division, or whatever) runs a study to profile HIV+ women in a given country. The AIDS office finds that the majority are SAHMs. Which is utter bullshit. Because the reason why SAHMs get tested are only because doctors ask "are you married?" (instead of "are you sexually active?") before they run STD tests. Plus, there's less stigma if you're a "victim" or your manwhore of a husband as opposed to you getting infected because you're having pre-marital sex. Think of all the undiagnosed women who don't get help, and the ones who can't speak up out of shame. Then you have some foreigner from a more sexually-liberated culture and he takes the study seriously, doesn't even consider there could be invisible HIV+ women out there, because it's unimaginable to him that a doctor would discriminate patients like that. They either waste money where it doesn't need wasting, or can't even identify a damn problem. Yeah, WTF, right?

---------- Post added 07-08-2012 at 05:51 PM ----------

Oh, look at meeee, I'm from a developed country... The toilet paper I use to wipe my ass is cleaner than your street food breakfast. You're filthy. My country gave money to the UNDP and I've never had to pay tuition in my entire life, you live in a semi-permanent cardboard shack in the shanties because you can't afford tuition and now with no education you can't get a humane and decent job, that's why I know better how to run your country than you do. I'm so much better than yoooouuuu! Waaaaaa!

[Typhon]

Originally Posted by Nathanael To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

that's completely fucking irrelevant not to mention wrong. Augustine of Hippo was from Algeria. The maghrib saw lots of philosophers and scientists. The Egyptians basically invented irrigation. African kingdoms like Zimbabwe are on par with most early European developments. Just because they didn't have cannons doesn't mean they were all a bunch of a bushmen "savages" as you're implying. In fact, a lot of modern science emerged after Europe began to colonize africa.

I don’t think anyone with an understanding of history would deny that North Africa had a huge role in the development of Western civilization. It’s Sub-Saharan Africa that has debatable cultural significance in regards to other non-African societies. It’s true that the Kingdom in Zimbabwe was, in many ways, as advanced as many societies in Europe…but they really didn’t have contact with anyone outside of Europe until European colonialists came and they weren’t important for the development of sciences in Europe except for their resources (like the rubber from Equatorial Africa).

Not saying that Sub-Saharan Africa isn’t important historically, just saying that they really didn’t have a massive impact on the West except for the resources that were plundered from there.

Originally Posted by peppersasen To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I can't believe I forgot to mention this. It's precisely the point: Because the most "backward" nations get colonized: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Often, the belief that some cultures are "backward" is the foundation of aid and development programmes. Thing is, sometimes the people they're trying to help don't really need any. Like introducing currency to a cashless/barter economy (if you can call it "having an economy" at all). Money gets wasted because people try to fix cultures that aren't even broken. They also don't bother understanding the culture before they make moves or they don't know when something is wrong in a current modern system (like governance) and they think everything's all good when it's not. Ex: A country's AIDS bureau (a commission, health ministry division, or whatever) runs a study to profile HIV+ women in a given country. The AIDS office finds that the majority are SAHMs. Which is utter bullshit. Because the reason why SAHMs get tested are only because doctors ask "are you married?" (instead of "are you sexually active?") before they run STD tests. Plus, there's less stigma if you're a "victim" or your manwhore of a husband as opposed to you getting infected because you're having pre-marital sex. Think of all the undiagnosed women who don't get help, and the ones who can't speak up out of shame. Then you have some foreigner from a more sexually-liberated culture and he takes the study seriously, doesn't even consider there could be invisible HIV+ women out there, because it's unimaginable to him that a doctor would discriminate patients like that. They either waste money where it doesn't need wasting, or can't even identify a damn problem. Yeah, WTF, right?

Agree completely. Just another reason to remove most forms of foreign aid to other countries.

[Nathanael]

Originally Posted by Typhon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I don’t think anyone with an understanding of history would deny that North Africa had a huge role in the development of Western civilization. It’s Sub-Saharan Africa that has debatable cultural significance in regards to other non-African societies. It’s true that the Kingdom in Zimbabwe was, in many ways, as advanced as many societies in Europe…but they really didn’t have contact with anyone outside of Europe until European colonialists came and they weren’t important for the development of sciences in Europe except for their resources (like the rubber from Equatorial Africa). Not saying that Sub-Saharan Africa isn’t important historically, just saying that they really didn’t have a massive impact on the West except for the resources that were plundered from there.

But this presumes the congruous, unbroken schema of "Western Civilization" as this monolithic, totalizing, homogenous and exclusive force (as someone else mentioned).

[Typhon]

	Originally Posted by Nathanael To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But this presumes the congruous, unbroken schema of "Western Civilization" as this monolithic, totalizing, homogenous and exclusive force (as someone else mentioned).

Or "Western Civilization" can just be a handy short-hand for those of us who don't make that presumption anyway.

[N0c7urn3]

Obviously. There isn't a perfect culture, and of course 'better' and 'worse' has subjective interpretations. But there are also very clear lines a culture should not cross. Having it be a cultural norm does not make stuff like honor killings or genocide acceptable. A culture that prevents such atrocities has to be better than a culture that encourages it.

Being 'politically correct' and ignoring such crimes against humanity is the immoral act here. As human beings, we know that we do not want to be oppressed or be fearing for our lives. That is just a psychological constant quite independent of culture, whether you are from a 'Western civilization' or whatever.

[Daoist]

I don't see any a priori reason why all cultures would be equal.

[Hydro]

	Originally Posted by N0c7urn3 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Obviously. There isn't a perfect culture, and of course 'better' and 'worse' has subjective interpretations.

That is very true! "Better" or "worse" must not be understood as absolute terms. It just describes a certain moment in history where one culture is or was superior over another. Some time later a new more agile culture might raise and sweep the earlier superior culture away.

I think today people are to emotional about ranking cultures because they don't know much about different cultures and are so terrified by the thought of a politically correct tribunal that they deny any common sense and don't even dare to discuss the matter openly.

[sunitaishot]

Originally Posted by N0c7urn3 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Obviously. There isn't a perfect culture, and of course 'better' and 'worse' has subjective interpretations. But there are also very clear lines a culture should not cross. Having it be a cultural norm does not make stuff like honor killings or genocide acceptable. A culture that prevents such atrocities has to be better than a culture that encourages it. Being 'politically correct' and ignoring such crimes against humanity is the immoral act here. As human beings, we know that we do not want to be oppressed or be fearing for our lives. That is just a psychological constant quite independent of culture, whether you are from a 'Western civilization' or whatever.

Yet to many Westerners, morality is subjective. why do or should "honour killings" matter?

---------- Post added 07-09-2012 at 11:31 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Nathanael To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

that's completely fucking irrelevant not to mention wrong. Augustine of Hippo was from Algeria. The maghrib saw lots of philosophers and scientists. The Egyptians basically invented irrigation. African kingdoms like Zimbabwe are on par with most early European developments. Just because they didn't have cannons doesn't mean they were all a bunch of a bushmen "savages" as you're implying. In fact, a lot of modern science emerged after Europe began to colonize africa.

The Islamic world has contributed a lot.

But only northern Africa is Muslim (to the Sahel at the most). Africa south of the Sahel didn't contribute much.

---------- Post added 07-10-2012 at 07:18 AM ----------

Originally Posted by peppersasen To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I can't believe I forgot to mention this. It's precisely the point: Because the most "backward" nations get colonized: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Often, the belief that some cultures are "backward" is the foundation of aid and development programmes. Thing is, sometimes the people they're trying to help don't really need any. Like introducing currency to a cashless/barter economy (if you can call it "having an economy" at all). Money gets wasted because people try to fix cultures that aren't even broken. They also don't bother understanding the culture before they make moves or they don't know when something is wrong in a current modern system (like governance) and they think everything's all good when it's not. Ex: A country's AIDS bureau (a commission, health ministry division, or whatever) runs a study to profile HIV+ women in a given country. The AIDS office finds that the majority are SAHMs. Which is utter bullshit. Because the reason why SAHMs get tested are only because doctors ask "are you married?" (instead of "are you sexually active?") before they run STD tests. Plus, there's less stigma if you're a "victim" or your manwhore of a husband as opposed to you getting infected because you're having pre-marital sex. Think of all the undiagnosed women who don't get help, and the ones who can't speak up out of shame. Then you have some foreigner from a more sexually-liberated culture and he takes the study seriously, doesn't even consider there could be invisible HIV+ women out there, because it's unimaginable to him that a doctor would discriminate patients like that. They either waste money where it doesn't need wasting, or can't even identify a damn problem. Yeah, WTF, right? ---------- Post added 07-08-2012 at 05:51 PM ---------- Oh, look at meeee, I'm from a developed country... The toilet paper I use to wipe my ass is cleaner than your street food breakfast. You're filthy. My country gave money to the UNDP and I've never had to pay tuition in my entire life, you live in a semi-permanent cardboard shack in the shanties because you can't afford tuition and now with no education you can't get a humane and decent job, that's why I know better how to run your country than you do. I'm so much better than yoooouuuu! Waaaaaa!

India was a colony. As was Brazil. And Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Singapore. All are successful countries.

Africa doesn't prosper since its people lack any entrepreneurial and scientific tradition.

[peppersasen]

	Originally Posted by sunitaishot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	India was a colony. As was Brazil. And Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Singapore. All are successful countries. Africa doesn't prosper since its people lack any entrepreneurial and scientific tradition.

oh dear. you didn't even read that link i posted, did you?

[Nathanael]

	Originally Posted by sunitaishot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Africa doesn't prosper since its people lack any entrepreneurial and scientific tradition.

Oh look, it's racism. Even worse, it's the sort of racism that masquerades as "fact"

[sircockburn]

	Originally Posted by sunitaishot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My personal belief is that Africa is backwards, and we should just let them drift off. People cite "slavery" and "colonialism" as retarding factors, but pre-European contact what did Africans produce of note?

Maybe nothing that you would be interested in, but plenty of things that they were interested in.

The funny thing about "interest" is that it's only cultivated by the culture if they're equipped to serve it.

---------- Post added 07-26-2012 at 02:59 AM ----------

And yes. Some cultures are better:

( Show Spoiler )

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[phoboser]

Some cultures are backwards in two senses:

1) They're at an earlier stage that more technologically advanced cultures have long abandoned.

2) They're comprised of genetically less intelligent people.

In America, black 18 year olds test at the level of white 14 year olds, so it's not surprising that Africa is Lord of the Flies writ large.

Culture isn't just memetics.

[Delarge]

I'd like to see foreign aid terminated altogether, at least from my country. I don't think it's appropriate for governments to transfer tax revenue to other countries for charitable purposes unless significant, tangible benefits can be reaped. Also, most countries are faced with massive budget deficits, so these sorts of endeavors seem even more absurd.

As for some cultures being preferable to others, this is undoubtedly so. I'd qualify this statement though by stating that the question you've posed is one of value, and whether one values the features and effects of Western civilization varies from person to person and group to group.

I count myself among those value and prefer the traditional cultures of the West, centered on Enlightenment values, more than the cultures achieved by the other races of man. Broadly speaking, the cultural and political arrangements we've established are more conducive to prosperity, individual enterprise and expression, and lasting happiness and fulfillment than any other. Frankly, it escapes my understanding how someone could seriously suggest that the savage head hunters of Papua New Guinea, the brutal child-marrying, genital mutilating Yemenis, or the perpetually disordered and rape frenzied Haitians, for instance, have achieved cultures that are desirable or that ought to be tolerated or imported. This is essentially what one claims when he pronounces that "all cultures are of equal value!"

In conclusion:

Do I prefer some cultures to others? Yes. Do others prefer some cultures to others? Clearly. Can a rough consensus be achieved among certain populations regarding the desirability of the cultures of other populations? Undoubtedly.

Returning to aid: if private individuals and organizations wish to engage in charity, that's fine, it's their wealth.

[porousshield]

Originally Posted by Delarge To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

As for some cultures being preferable to others, this is undoubtedly so. I'd qualify this statement though by stating that the question you've posed is one of value, and whether one values the features and effects of Western civilization varies from person to person and group to group. I count myself among those value and prefer the traditional cultures of the West, centered on Enlightenment values, more than the cultures achieved by the other races of man. Broadly speaking, the cultural and political arrangements we've established are more conducive to prosperity, individual enterprise and expression, and lasting happiness and fulfillment than any other. Frankly, it escapes my understanding how someone could seriously suggest that the savage head hunters of Papua New Guinea, the brutal child-marrying, genital mutilating Yemenis, or the perpetually disordered and rape frenzied Haitians, for instance, have achieved cultures that are desirable or that ought to be tolerated or imported. This is essentially what one claims when he pronounces that "all cultures are of equal value!"

Your post is so objectionable I don't even know where to start. What you basically done is boil those cultures down to their stereotypical worse parts. Western cultures can be boiled down this way too. The US would be a bunch of xenophobic rapists, Canada a bunch of seal clubbing barbarians, the Germans are Nazi's (doesn't matter that it happened 70 years ago), and etc. You can't just sum of these cultures from their worse parts. At worse it's prejudice and at best it's stupid.

For that matter, what is Western culture and where does it start and end? Is Russia a part of Western civilization? Is Greece?

Japan is pretty damn successful and so I South Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong so it's not a trait held exclusively by Westerners. They have taken some Western elements into their societies but how can you say that their cultural and political arrangements are any less conductive to success?

[Paul Siraisi]

Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Favorite hobbies of Western ethnocentrists: 1. Judge every other civilization, past and present, by Western standards. 2. If someone demonstrates the worth of some past civilization, quickly shift to a "but where are they now??" narrative. (Because, of course, a) "Western civilization" consists of one coherent historical line and b) the only reason civilizations ever disappear is because they aren't worthy of existing.) Yawn yawn. Transparent. Think of new shit.

The truth is boringly repetetive. No matter what angle you hit it from, it keeps saying the same damned thing. Btw, migration patterns (as in voting with your feet) are a testament to NON Western ethnocentrics converging, so to speak, and boringly yet again, on the same conclusion.