[Oros Ull]

	Originally Posted by Reginald X To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We say that the purpose of life is to overcome suffering. Is that the same as preventing suffering? If adversity is inevitable in life, is the best solution to prevent life?

LOL I guess pragmaticisim takes us down a dark road on this one. Luckily that’s what objectivity is for.

I think we are best suited to overcome suffering which leads to progression. But preventing it would be folly as it could only lead to stagnation.

Although that could be a hurdle to overcome as well… So I guess you never know.

[sunitaishot]

Originally Posted by Oros Ull To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I never said we should seek out pain, there is no need plenty will come to you all on its own. But thinking that you are so special that you are exempt from the simple fact of nature that pain is an essential part of life is just naive. People need to suffer to learn and grow. It’s just how it works, without it we wouldn’t be where we are now as a species. Only in overcoming pain do we progress. Avoiding it rather than facing and overcoming it only serve to stagnate us.

How so?

---------- Post added 08-20-2012 at 03:12 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Reginald X To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We say that the purpose of life is to overcome suffering. Is that the same as preventing suffering? If adversity is inevitable in life, is the best solution to prevent life?

but we do prevent suffering. Hence why we prevent rapes, murders, etc.

[derpdederp]

	Originally Posted by sunitaishot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Call this simplistic thinking, but if suffering is good, why then curb it? why not let people get sick, or people get assaulted, raped, murdered, etc?

The practical reason is that it would interfere in peoples' lives. Even the stronger person who can function in an environment devoid of protections would find that attaining his goals would be much more difficult without any semblance of order. That's why the powerful invariably impose their own orders on society: to faciliate the fulfillment of their will to power.

Talking about things like suffering as being "good" or "evil" in absolute terms is silly.

	The nature of man, and by extension all sentient life, is to seek contentment over suffering. I think personally, the idea that suffering is virtuous was said long ago to justify the moral/political status quo of those eras.

Ultimately it is the higher man who will channel his energies such that he overcomes his suffering and affirms himself, thereby realizing the inherent worth of his suffering (though this is not the same as calling suffering "good"). Meanwhile the weak man writhes in (self-)perpetuated agony because he cannot or, even worse, will not will himself to overcome it. Such a man decries suffering as "evil" in the absolute sense.

There exist types who willingly seek out challenge so that they may overcome it and in so doing grow to appreciate all aspects of life which the more complacent or content decry as "good" and "evil" in absolute terms. No doubt the majority of people, as you say, seek contentment and don't strive for higher heights.

OP: I'm not the kind of person that despises cruelty or suffering in any absolute sense, therefore the fact that I love life is not in contradiction. Overall I agree with your assessment.

[sunitaishot]

So you're saying that people have a right to cause others suffering?

[derpdederp]

Any "right" exists merely as an expression of one's power. So, no, I don't think there is a universal positive "right to cause suffering".

One could will for oneself the "right to cause suffering", but people probably wouldn't like him very much. I don't see much use in acting that way, so while it's not universally wrong (a.k.a. "evil"), it's probably "bad". I personally have little inclination to cause suffering for its own sake, though I would not be hung up on it if a little suffering was caused for a noble purpose. But that is in accordance with my own morality (with a small 'm') which though I will it to be universal, it is nevertheless contingent on my own power.

Basically what I'm saying is that suffering (in the broadest sense) is not "evil", and can even be beneficial in the long run. Of course this is going to depend on the context and the type of suffering, but then at worst, it's just "bad". In any case, life is full of all kinds of suffering, so it seems to me that the way to deal with it is to quit sulking and whining about how terrible life is and try to mold the situation to your advantage, no matter how terrible and unfortunate it might seem.

Otherwise, it's just as was said in the OP: such a person much naturally scorn life itself.

[MrFreakaficial]

Nature: I want to kill you.

Human A: I submit, because if life itself is suffering, there is no good to sustain it for.

Human B: I'll fight back as long as I can for no other reason than because of the law of the jungle.

They'll both end up dead eventually, the only difference being that human B had the courage to fight in spite of, or perhaps because of, knowing that he'll inevitably lose.

[sunitaishot]

Originally Posted by derpdederp To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Any "right" exists merely as an expression of one's power. So, no, I don't think there is a universal positive "right to cause suffering". One could will for oneself the "right to cause suffering", but people probably wouldn't like him very much. I don't see much use in acting that way, so while it's not universally wrong (a.k.a. "evil"), it's probably "bad". I personally have little inclination to cause suffering for its own sake, though I would not be hung up on it if a little suffering was caused for a noble purpose. But that is in accordance with my own morality (with a small 'm') which though I will it to be universal, it is nevertheless contingent on my own power. Basically what I'm saying is that suffering (in the broadest sense) is not "evil", and can even be beneficial in the long run. Of course this is going to depend on the context and the type of suffering, but then at worst, it's just "bad". In any case, life is full of all kinds of suffering, so it seems to me that the way to deal with it is to quit sulking and whining about how terrible life is and try to mold the situation to your advantage, no matter how terrible and unfortunate it might seem. Otherwise, it's just as was said in the OP: such a person much naturally scorn life itself.

I agree that suffering is part of life. But I do not see why suffering is inherently more valuable or worthy than joy. It seems a number think this, but I believe humans need a balance of the two to be healthy.

[derpdederp]

	Originally Posted by sunitaishot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I agree that suffering is part of life. But I do not see why suffering is inherently more valuable or worthy than joy. It seems a number think this, but I believe humans need a balance of the two to be healthy.

I'm not saying suffering is worth more than joy, simply that it is not worthless. I agree with you. I suppose it might seem like I value suffering more than I really do by virtue of the fact that too many people fetishize joy or pleasure (which is to say, they overvalue it relative to other things), in my opinion.

[Oros Ull]

	Originally Posted by sunitaishot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How so?

As in how do Humans learn by suffering?

The way I see it is there is a basic trinity resulting in progress among Man. It requires Courage, Knowledge and Wisdom. Experience is what separates Knowledge from Wisdom. AKA Body, Mind, Soul.

A kid can grow up learning everything about the military, learning strategies, hearing stories ect. But he won’t know what War really is without fighting a battle of his own. It’s the experience that touches our lives and changes who we are. Not the information.

All Knowledge does is let you know what you’re experiencing, why you are suffering and how you can use it. Both are necessary to progress as is Courage which is needed to overcome all the obstacles that will lead you to gain the other two.

That’s a pretty simple way of looking at it and is kind of an understatement. But it holds true as far as I can tell.

[Bevan]

Suffering in earthly life is unavoidable. Inflicting suffering is unnecessary.

---------- Post added 08-23-2012 at 09:45 PM ----------

It is a mystery to me where the impulse for gratuitous violence originates in the human mind. Cruelty for fun and amusement. Statistics are not available, but I wonder what percentage of people are actually confronted by a kill-or-be-killed situation even once in their lives? I haven't, but maybe I'm lucky. Kill-or-be-killed is popular in virtual-reality games though. I've enjoyed games like that myself. Adrenaline? Ever-present danger in virtual reality can be addictive.

In real life, I'd prefer a climate of something like 'love or be loved', but loving is more difficult than hating, it seems. Hating is as easy as laziness.