[Autumnleaf]

I've heard this idea from people who are usually conservative and I'm wondering what liberals think of it. Or if you are conservative do you agree or disagree with it? I figure government would want citizens to be self sufficient enough to get a job so they can pay taxes which funds the government, but maybe that isn't so. What do you think?

[Sk8ordude]

Oblivious to their helplessness and dependence.

[Dangime]

Government always want people to be dependant to a certain degree that suits their circumstances. People that are "too" independant in the government's eyes are prone to ignore government ordinances they deem as frivilous or bad policy. If the government can monopolize important everyday systems like food distrubution, defense/protection, the right to build or live in a structure, trade and conduct business, etc, then you are much more likely to comply with an order that is obviously wrong or stupid, if not doing so means you'll starve or be homeless.

[newtome]

Does government want people to feel helpless and dependent on government?

yes

[Ray9]

Government? Please be more specific.

[eagleseven]

Government wants good citizens. Which means independent enough to work and pay taxes, but dependent enough to never rebel. And vote for the right people, if we're talking about democracy.

[Ghostwheel]

The writing is a bit overblown, but this article seems to be on point:

All Over America Government Agents of Tyranny Are Forcing Preppers Back On To The Grid In recent years there have been huge numbers of Americans that have sought to go "off the grid" and live a more independent lifestyle. It has been estimated that there are now approximately 3 million "preppers" in the United States, and many of them just want to be left alone so that they can take care of themselves and their families on their own land. But that is not the way America works anymore. In many areas of the country, government control freaks have essentially declared war on preppers and are attempting to force them back on to the grid. In some states, "nuisance abatement teams" are conducting armed raids on off the grid properties. Property owners are being cited for "code violations" and are being told that they are "bothering the neighbors". In some cases, trees and gardens are being forcibly removed. In other cases, entire structures are being relocated or torn down. And in the most extreme cases, property owners are actually being forced off of their properties completely by these control freaks.... Link: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. .

[Thinker]

	Originally Posted by Ghostwheel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The writing is a bit overblown, but this article seems to be on point:

All Over America Government Agents of Tyranny Are Forcing Preppers Back On To The Grid In recent years there have been huge numbers of Americans that have sought to go "off the grid" and live a more independent lifestyle. It has been estimated that there are now approximately 3 million "preppers" in the United States, and many of them just want to be left alone so that they can take care of themselves and their families on their own land. But that is not the way America works anymore. In many areas of the country, government control freaks have essentially declared war on preppers and are attempting to force them back on to the grid. In some states, "nuisance abatement teams" are conducting armed raids on off the grid properties. Property owners are being cited for "code violations" and are being told that they are "bothering the neighbors". In some cases, trees and gardens are being forcibly removed. In other cases, entire structures are being relocated or torn down. And in the most extreme cases, property owners are actually being forced off of their properties completely by these control freaks....

Paranoia is spread through ignorance....
The way I read it, squatters are being removed from land they occupy illegally. They have screamed "unfair" to the media and journalists haven't done their job to check the facts.

But...."government agents of tyranny" makes a much better story....for the uneducated.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Most of the comments I see are really misinformed. I happen to live where so much of this is taking place, and the truth is, it is folks that have found someone’s property not occupied. And SQUATTED on the property. No sanitation, no right to squat there, just find an old travel trailer, or old van/school bus/beat up RV, and squat. The land owner is appraised of the situation, and low and behold, the fact of ownership comes to light, so the county must enforce the trespass law. The squatter moves off, or goes to jail for drugs/making dope/failure to register as a felon/sex offender/children in danger or not attending school. The LAND OWNER is charged with removing the offending trash, fixing the sanitation problem, and the neighboring properties are taken for a huge drag through decending value of property. No one wants to punish anyone for wanting to live a self sustaining lifestyle, just to do so within the law. It has cost me several thousand dollars to get the trespassers off of my land, and the Sheriff could not put the female in street, as she had minor children, and that was their own Mother!! So, when CPS took the kids to foster care, the woman went to jail, and was also charged with contributing to the delinguentcy of her kids, but 4 drug charges, and a warrant for “soliciting” outstanding, as well as being in possesion of a stolen weapon, and assualt on a Sheriff’s deputy. Many folks here in the high desert of L.A. county live off of the grid, and do so legally with water trucked in, and septic systems CORRECTLY installed. If the sanitation is not kept legal, we get nitrates in our well water, and THAT is the only water we have. In fact we truck in 1000 gal a month for drinking, as the wells are now too high in nitrates from illegal squatters. So, the other side of the coin is do so LEGALLY, and you are not just welcomed, but encouraged.

[Fecal McAngry]

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[Ghostwheel]

	Originally Posted by Thinker To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Paranoia is spread through ignorance.... The way I read it, squatters are being removed from land they occupy illegally. They have screamed "unfair" to the media and journalists haven't done their job to check the facts. But...."government agents of tyranny" makes a much better story....for the uneducated.

The title is a bit florid, but this is not about evictions.

Did you
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? These are people living in the desert surrounded by ... nothing.

They're not being charged with living on someone else's property, they're being charged with zoning and code violations. For example, one man was specifically told he could keep his land if he paid $75,000 to hook up to the county power lines.

"He could keep his land," they told another, "but would not be allowed to live on it." There's no mention of title to the homes or land belonging to someone else:

	Reason.tv collaborated with Melnicoff to talk with some of the NAT's targets, such as retired veteran Joey Gallo, who might face homelessness if he's forced to leave his house, and local pastor Oscar Castaneda, who says he's already given up the fight and is in the process of moving off the land he and his wife have lived on for 22 years.

Pastor Castaneda, who presides at the historical Sanctuary Seventh-day Adventist Church, is among many who say Los Angeles County is drumming up cases against harmless desert rats who bother nobody and are valued members of the community. He and his wife, Aracelis, live in their comfortable mobile home in Lake Los Angeles on 2.5 acres situated, inarguably, in the middle of nowhere down a long dirt road surrounded by desert. But last year, he was approached by NAT numerous times for violations such as neatly stored but inoperable vehicles he repairs for income; "debris" including a rowboat the Castanedas were turning into a decorative planter; and living on the land illegally. Ultimately, the Castanedas received a citation stating that the L.A. County Board of Supervisors had confirmed a finding that "the property is substandard, declared the property a public nuisance because it is: injurious to health; offensive to the senses; and obstructs the free use of neighboring property so as to interfere with the comfortable enjoyment of life and property." A "neighbor" had complained, the county says. The problem is, the Castanedas have no neighbors. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. .

Neither the Deputy District Attorney nor any county official would respond to request for an interview. ReasonTV attended a county board of supervisors meeting and specifically asked why residents were being forced to destroy their houses and vacate their property.

Not one county official said, "Because they're squatters and the land isn't theirs." (
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). The answer they received was that the county was simply responding to complaints of code violations from neighbors in the area.

No mention of squatting:
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.

Some residents believe that county Nuisance Abatement Teams order the more modest compliance actions first, such as weed-clearing, then build up to ordering residents to remove their homes, saving the county from paying for costly cleanup once a dweller with little financial means is pushed out. Grover denies this out of hand, saying, "Our goal is to educate them about code violations. We do not want to push them out of their land." To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. .

This is not about property-owners vs squatters. What's going on is that the county wants this land vacated for some reason, but won't openly say. They're using the excuse of "code violations" to force people away, not challenging their title.

[Vagrant]

The government wants people who are neither too independent nor too dependent. Too independent means the person has no need for the government. Too dependent drags the government down.

[thod]

Each of us is sitting at the ends of huge supply networks. Even the Amish would notice if the modern world stopped supplying them. A peculiarly American dream. This myth of the family carving a homestead in the wilderness. Needing nothing and no one from the outside. Europe has always been occupied and owned, there is nowhere to run to escape the state. Hunter gathers need huge quantities of land to survive and there are too many people for that.

[Autumnleaf]

Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Each of us is sitting at the ends of huge supply networks. Even the Amish would notice if the modern world stopped supplying them. A peculiarly American dream. This myth of the family carving a homestead in the wilderness. Needing nothing and no one from the outside. Europe has always been occupied and owned, there is nowhere to run to escape the state. Hunter gathers need huge quantities of land to survive and there are too many people for that.

You mean the Amish would notice if their power tools stopped working?


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[Polymath20]

Liberals tend to think of the relationship between citizenry and government as symbiotic, codependent, and mutual. Government is there to help you get on your feet and make the most of your life.

Conservatives tend to think that government is there to get in the way, hassle you, take from you, and coerce you.

[thod]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You mean the Amish would notice if their power tools stopped working?

I don't know of any Amish iron mines and its tough to farm without iron implements.

[Traverser]

Originally Posted by Dangime To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Government always want people to be dependant to a certain degree that suits their circumstances. People that are "too" independant in the government's eyes are prone to ignore government ordinances they deem as frivilous or bad policy. If the government can monopolize important everyday systems like food distrubution, defense/protection, the right to build or live in a structure, trade and conduct business, etc, then you are much more likely to comply with an order that is obviously wrong or stupid, if not doing so means you'll starve or be homeless.

That pretty much sums up my position as well. Governments are compulsory monopolies on justice and security. They don't like competition, and neither do their dependants.

---------- Post added 06-25-2012 at 05:47 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Thinker To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The way I read it, squatters are being removed from land they occupy illegally.

Illegal does not mean stolen. How is this any different from a foreign government sending troops to invade our homes and telling us that we're squatters on their territory? I'm not about to say that the ancestors of native Americans have a reasonable claim on everything in the U.S., but I think it's fair to say that once someone mixes his or her labor into something first, they own it. To say otherwise would be completely contradictory to how we perceive ourselves as self-owners.

[The Dan Keizer]

The state and the corporations that control it take an active interest in cultivating fear among the population. Fear of terrorism, fear of your neighbors, fear of not being accepted by one's peers, fear of not having a big enough dick....

All this leads to more consumption of corporate products, more laws, more taxes, more state.

I don't see conservatives supporting this any more or less than liberals but I'm sort of on the outside looking in with that.

[JYFly]

A government elected by its constituents only operates how its constituents want it to operate. In the US at least, since government is represented by two positions only and since those two positions need to reach a compromise for government to operate, the government wants people to depend on it for maintaining the economy as well as maintaining its unsustainable lifestyle by siphoning resources from 'enemy' nations.

Having government operate in a hands off way requires its constituents to want a government that operates that way. Looking at the presidents, congressmen, and even mayors that they elect, it is clear that the constituents want government to provide in some way for them.

I'm a moderate libertarian btw. My positions are seen as 'radical' by people who call themselves liberal or conservative, so as far as I'm concerned, the people want to be dependent on the government. The only difference is in what way.

[Autumnleaf]

Originally Posted by JYFly To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A government elected by its constituents only operates how its constituents want it to operate. In the US at least, since government is represented by two positions only and since those two positions need to reach a compromise for government to operate, the government wants people to depend on it for maintaining the economy as well as maintaining its unsustainable lifestyle by siphoning resources from 'enemy' nations. Having government operate in a hands off way requires its constituents to want a government that operates that way. Looking at the presidents, congressmen, and even mayors that they elect, it is clear that the constituents want government to provide in some way for them. I'm a moderate libertarian btw. My positions are seen as 'radical' by people who call themselves liberal or conservative, so as far as I'm concerned, the people want to be dependent on the government. The only difference is in what way.

A percentage of the people want stuff from the government. Another percentage does not; these people are the ones who need a valid choice to vote for.