[LadySpock]

For me - the word "relationships" covers different types of social interactions - not just romantic.

[catzmeow]

	Originally Posted by ischuldt To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	One of the comments was about how asking an intj for relationship advice was never a good idea because we're supposedly so naturally bad at them.

Two thoughts on this: First, when it comes to romantic relationships, there are a lot of INTJs on this forum who are operating purely on the theoretical level. I don't think theoretical advice (unencumbered by tangible life experience) is very helpful. With some of the advice I've seen on this forum, particularly from young INTJs, there is a clear disconnect between theory and practice.

Second, though, I think my INTJ gives great advice on relationships in general (not romantic ones, though...not his forte). He's an experienced manager and leader, and he's good at directing people and getting along with them.

I rely on him for the second, but even he would say that he's still learning quite a lot at this point in his life on the romance thing (and he's 44).

[ischuldt]

	Originally Posted by LadySpock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	INTJs giving relationship advice is like a parapalegic teaching someone how to pole vault.

Given that at least some intjs do end up in good relationships as opposed to no parapelegics being able to pole vault I would think the analogy would be more like a sub par pole vaulter teaching an excellent athlete how to pole vault. You see that all the time, and it works with decent success. Again...those who can't do teach.

[followthehippos]

	Originally Posted by ischuldt To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Given that at least some intjs do end up in good relationships as opposed to no parapelegics being able to pole vault I would think the analogy would be more like a sub par pole vaulter teaching an excellent athlete how to pole vault. You see that all the time, and it works with decent success. Again...those who can't do teach.

A paraplegic could have easily been an professional pole vaulter at a young age. Therefore, such an individual would understand all the techniques and training necessary to become very skilled and driven. Such a person wouldn't be much different from an older gentlemen training. The only place he would be liking is in his ability to "demonstrate" effective pole vaulting. I'm highly doubtful coaches in the NFL are skilled enough to train professional athletes, largely they coach from a different perspective. Though, that's probably apple and oranges now, lol.

The point is, INTJs can be effective with relationship advice if they have proper experience in that department. When INTJs who have never dated start giving dating advice it is largely based upon what seems most theoretically logical to them. They may have hints of insights, but some of what may be said can be naive, or entirely off. Whereas an INTJ with plenty of experience will a more complete view on the issue at hand.

[FruitLoop]

Some relationship problems are like defusing bombs - you might be heading in the right general direction, but if you don't follow the scientific procedure you are going to cause more problems than you are going to solve.

So deep thinkers have lots of clever advice, but we don't always know the right way to execute it.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by FruitLoop To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Some relationship problems are like defusing bombs - you might be heading in the right general direction, but if you don't follow the scientific procedure you are going to cause more problems than you are going to solve. So deep thinkers have lots of clever advice, but we don't always know the right way to execute it.

A partner's crying because their mother died. What would the scientific method be to stop the crying beyond smothering them?

[changos]

	Originally Posted by FruitLoop To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Some relationship problems are like defusing bombs - you might be heading in the right general direction, but if you don't follow the scientific procedure you are going to cause more problems than you are going to solve. So deep thinkers have lots of clever advice, but we don't always know the right way to execute it.

I like the way you put it. Some people are underground mines, most will judge the one who stepped on it.

PS. Just gotta love codependent people saying their love relationships are perfect while blaming intjs for being cold... nowadays love means codependency...

[FruitLoop]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A partner's crying because their mother died. What would the scientific method be to stop the crying beyond smothering them?

That's my whole point. I'm not a degreed professional. You're on your own, but my personal opinion is I wouldn't be trying to stop anything.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by FruitLoop To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's my whole point. I'm not a degreed professional. You're on your own, but my personal opinion is I wouldn't be trying to stop anything.

All I'm asking is that you provide the purported clever advice of deep thinkers, which follows the scientific methodology previously referenced. So what's your clever advice, deep thinker?

[followthehippos]

No science needed. Just genuine empathy/sympathy and understanding. Can't really apply much of a scientific analysis to your question.

[nowt]

Build them a new mother. Correction: Alpha-mother.

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A partner's crying because their mother died. What would the scientific method be to stop the crying beyond smothering them?

[ManWithNoName]

	Originally Posted by FruitLoop To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Some relationship problems are like defusing bombs - you might be heading in the right general direction, but if you don't follow the scientific procedure you are going to cause more problems than you are going to solve. So deep thinkers have lots of clever advice, but we don't always know the right way to execute it.

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A partner's crying because their mother died. What would the scientific method be to stop the crying beyond smothering them?

His whole point was that if you don't stop to analyze you are likely to cause more problems than anything else and that being able to analyze doesn't always equate into being able to execute the analysis.

The amount of analysis is generally proportional to the situation. You provided a simple situation. The answer seems to be is to comfort her.


It's cleverness lies in it's simplicity.

[followthehippos]

Scientific analysis is not the needed procedure to handle such a situation.

She is presenting a scenario which proves that deep thinking is not the quintessential piece to knowing how to properly respond in such situations. In fact, an INTJ would probably not be as well equipped to respond in such a situation as another feeler that can show genuine sympathy and offer a shoulder to cry on.

Don't forget that INTJs weakness IS relationships and often times responding improperly. While they may have interesting and good insights, they offer an element of assistance. But it is by no means more valuable than what other types can offer.

[catzmeow]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A partner's crying because their mother died. What would the scientific method be to stop the crying beyond smothering them?

Why would you want to stop the crying? If someone's mother dies, mourning is natural, healthy, and dare I say it, necessary. Trying to stop the crying is not helpful in that scenario, and may just make the person feel like they have to hide their grief. I know that when I cry, which is rare, I don't want my partner to shush me. I want to be allowed to cry it out for as long as I need to cry it out, without feeling like they need me to stop for their own discomfort.

I don't cry often, but when I do cry, it's serious, and I don't want some goddamn sort of "there, there" back patting which is more about the other person not having to hear me cry than it is about me being allowed to get out whatever is causing me enough pain/rage/frustration to drive me to tears.

Actually, the most obvious scientific method to response to this problem would be to research how different personalities express grief, and make sure your partner feels safe and free to express their grief as needed.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by catzmeow To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Actually, the most obvious scientific method to response to this problem would be to research how different personalities express grief, and make sure your partner feels safe and free to express their grief as needed.

I'd toss the science and vibe with my partner, seeing how he responds to touch, proximity, words, silence, an ear/shoulder, etc.

As you said, sometimes there's no cure or solution for grief.

[Zephyranthes]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'd toss the science and vibe with my partner, seeing how he responds to touch, proximity, words, silence, an ear/shoulder, etc. As you said, sometimes there's no cure or solution for grief.

So basically you would analyze and try to understand someone's reactions to you and progress towards your desired goal, trying to do things they make they like and that keep them interested in you and in furthering a relationship between you two.

So basically science.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by Zephyranthes To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So basically you would analyze and try to understand someone's reactions to you and progress towards your desired goal, trying to do things they make they like and that keep them interested in you and in furthering a relationship between you two. So basically science.

No. It's called helping a loved one through their grief. It doesn't expect return. Y'know, ol' fashioned compassion.

[ManWithNoName]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No. It's called helping a loved one through their grief. It doesn't expect return. Y'know, ol' fashioned compassion.

Uhhh, the scientific method is a method of analysis to investigate phenomena and acquire knowledge. I really don't know what you think it is or consider it to be but being a method of analysis it doesn't expect things in return. Also being an analytical method it is an evaluative one and one that evaluates after the investigation of said phenomena and so is not a really or necessarily a course of action in of itself.

I don't understand the argument that you are trying to make? That trying to gain a perspective on it though evaluation based upon existing knowledge and trial is pointless? That one should just react?

To chose a course of action, be it something like deciding to show compassion, and that compassion is probably the best response is an evaluation.

[changos]

Crying after loosing someone? what to do? it depends.

Most people believe being on a relationship is about FIXING things for the partner, or fixing the partner... that's not loving, well it could be but in a wrong way. I mean, love is a feeling, but how we love (what we do) is something we learn and get better as time goes by.

Most people also try to negate the "bad pictures" to others, I mean they want then happy all the time, that's not good. When this sort of things happens I [etc etc, not important right now] but I can't skip sharing that many times doing the opposite "please don't cry" or whatever works better.

Like when someone is furious and we know that person is right, instead of negating them their right to express, we can allow them their expressions, accepting them. Then well try to work something out. Some times people are stupid and can upset you, what kind of partner would tell you "calm down, don't say that, people are good, be good, you are being bad right now", oh wait.. that happens all the time!!!! you can do a lot of good understanding the pain of others instead of trying to work it out. That's my opinion, just my opinion.


I said it depends because some partners want you to take away their pain, with jokes or denial. Others want support, others understanding, others a safe place and a wall to hit, others confort, others, perhaps like many of us... would want space, nothing else. The thing is to learn what our partner wants and needs (two diff things).

Logic is not the universal answer (logic approaches) but at the end, learning and choosing what to do can be converted into a good logic approach that works. Tricky... that's why dating diff people really helps developing diff functions and learning diff ways to treat someone.


Take per example trouble members posting here wanting advice... many say the same thing, but sometimes people won't react to logic solutions, even the best solutions. Many times they only want to feel they are not crazy or alone, that others also feel the same way, and many other times they would react to the same info but put in a different way. That's why sometimes the thread ends up with everybody saying the same thing but the OP reacting only to one or to members who GOT in what way to communicate.

[FruitLoop]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	All I'm asking is that you provide the purported clever advice of deep thinkers, which follows the scientific methodology previously referenced. So what's your clever advice, deep thinker?

My clever advice is not to blow yourself up with it. If you don't know what you're doing, and you're in over your head, then don't be a know-it-all smartass or the tears will turn to flames. Get help, or at least peer-review.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by Zephyranthes To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So basically you would analyze and try to understand someone's reactions to you and progress towards your desired goal, trying to do things they make they like and that keep them interested in you and in furthering a relationship between you two. So basically science.

Originally Posted by ManWithNoName To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Uhhh, the scientific method is a method of analysis to investigate phenomena and acquire knowledge. I really don't know what you think it is or consider it to be but being a method of analysis it doesn't expect things in return. Also being an analytical method it is an evaluative one and one that evaluates after the investigation of said phenomena and so is not a really or necessarily a course of action in of itself. I don't understand the argument that you are trying to make? That trying to gain a perspective on it though evaluation based upon existing knowledge and trial is pointless? That one should just react? To chose a course of action, be it something like deciding to show compassion, and that compassion is probably the best response is an evaluation.

Refer to the bolds within the quote above, to which I was responding. Read them, they're the areas of contention.

Should also add that the scientific method can't be applied since empirical data to build models of peoples' grief, aren't useful within individual situations.

---------- Post added 05-18-2012 at 11:39 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by FruitLoop To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My clever advice is not to blow yourself up with it. If you don't know what you're doing, and you're in over your head, then don't be a know-it-all smartass or the tears will turn to flames. Get help, or at least peer-review.

I see. This would tide over well with an SO in distress about losing a parent.

[FruitLoop]

Look, when the shit hits the fan REAL BAD, just stand there next to them and do nothing. Use firm physical contact (big hug) if that is the type of relationship, or else just shit there and wait. And then DO NOTHING. Don't try to fix! Get all your clever ideas and make damn sure you don't do any of them! Wait until they have calmed down lots and lots, and if you really want to do something then MAYBE fetch their favorite thing - cup of tea in favorite mug etc, but basically you need to know that all your cleverness doesn't mean shit at this point.

[ischuldt]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Should also add that the scientific method can't be applied since empirical data to build models of peoples' grief, aren't useful within individual situations.

sure it can. here's an algorithm for you...

void console_loved_one(int happyness_level)
{
    if(happyness_level >= MAX_INT){
         return;
    }
    list<Solution> solutions = get_known_solutions_for_helping_to_console_loved_one();
    FOR_EACH(Solution s in solutions){
           try {
                s.execute();
           }catch(DoesNotSeemToBeHelping){
                continue;  
           }
           if(happyness_level >=MAX_INT){
                break;
           }
    }
    return;
}

[SVR]

	Originally Posted by Strange Moon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	BTW David Keirsey also says that INTJs are very capable of having great social relationships because they constantly try to improve the quality of their relationships to people they care about.

The operative phrase being "people they care about". Caring for people is a long drawn process for INTJs, and few make the cut! Hence the low number relationships in general.