Forms of help and advice that annoy INTJs

**Tactical Panda** · 07-03-2012, 08:42 PM

Within this context INTJ is preference for Ni, Te, Fi and inferior Se, with this thread intending to focus on this type in particular in order to further a measure of understanding.

Feel free to contribute or comment. My list won't cover them all.

Forms of advice that annoy INTJs:

1. Vague criticisms intended to hinder decisive self improvement in order to maintain a status quo
If somebody wants to help by being 'somebody' instead of solving the problem, I don't see any benefit when you consider that there are plenty of people out there who would better be able to actually solve the problem with less fuss. I find usually these people add problems to the mix due to poor character and strange dependency issues.

Self improvement isn't a perpetual cycle of non-improvement and impotence as one batters themself against the same old issue they should have been able to deal with ages ago if better handled. Self improvement is a tough success followed by a hunt for a new success in the direction of the difficult but meaningful and required. The success is 'inner', but has 'outer' consequences.

2. White lies effectively used irresponsibly
We will remember the lie long after its intended use - it is beyond people's capacity to responsibly deliver. It tends to be a crutch for taking the easy roads and is easily an issue where double standards are exploited and self interest is protected by people who claim benevolent intent as they attempt to avoid manipulation while dishing it out.

When a white lie isn't needed, be responsible and end the deception. If you are irresponsible you are being negligent and thus unhelpful in the long run as far as tendencies go.
When a white lie creates more problems than it merits, its use was poorly handled. I suggest self improve or cease in order to find an alternative method that is less destructive to others, for obvious reasons for those who claim good wishes for others.

I don't particularly approve of white lies. They seem like a cop out for people who should spend more time on self improvement of mind, endurance and the ability to innovate better options.

3. Telling us it can't be done when it can be or already has been
It seems hardly worth the time spent listening and understanding what is said on the matter if the conclusion is confidently wrong. The extent of strictly what is possible doesn't hinge on what is commonly practiced or the information that is currently circulating. Unusual method, if they work and when in good hands, can be enjoyable to implement when interest in them dwells there.

4. People who assume the important lessons for them are needed to be learnt by others
While some lessons fall into that category, the motives and methods of others can differ from the over-eager teacher. Good will without understanding is depressing when it wastes time due to not investigating assumptions. And annoying if the mistaken teacher adopts a preachy moral high ground instead of activating the mind to effectively think.

5. People who expect obedience to conveniently avoid correction
Pushing children with entitlement issues are annoying. When they spout double standards, it makes sense not to follow the paths they advocate - following their example or what they suggest is inferior to being a normal, adequate human being that is capable of intelligent and responsible learning. The latter is the obvious goal for people with realistic appraisals of the best they can achieve with the one limited lifetime worth of influence and awareness rather than some mini rightfully-treat-me-as-your-god delusion.

- - -

Things I find helpful:

1. Discussions minus the politics
Describe a situation and the consequences that you see, and why what you think is important seems important. Don't attempt to infuse it with hidden messages and moralizing. The drama degrades your usefulness and desirability compared to people who don't have those sorts of issues getting in the way. It's pretty simple stuff.

Less drama, more problem solving, and once the problem is adequately and solidly solved then improvement is the next sensible step. It seems like the intelligent path forward for people looking to overcome the challenges of life.

**gracious** · 07-04-2012, 09:34 AM

It has been my experience that any offers of help that had not explicitly been sought out will not be welcome.
INTJs prefer to solve their own problems and then proclaim their autonomous successes with pride.

**Saggita** · 07-04-2012, 09:38 AM

	Originally Posted by gracious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It has been my experience that any offers of help that had not explicitly been sought out will not be welcome. INTJs prefer to solve their own problems and then proclaim their autonomous successes with pride.

I can relate to this. When I want help, I have no qualms in asking for it. I don't need a babysitter, nor I expect people to offer me help at all. But somehow that backfires and close relatives/friends say I'm a bit rude because I don't want help.

**jndiii** · 07-04-2012, 11:54 AM

	Originally Posted by Saggita To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I can relate to this. When I want help, I have no qualms in asking for it. I don't need a babysitter, nor I expect people to offer me help at all. But somehow that backfires and close relatives/friends say I'm a bit rude because I don't want help.

Yeah, for a lot of people, "help" is a bonding thing, and not really about the help. This kind of help I find annoying but harmless.

The more negative version is that it's often a way to gain favors or impose obligations, e.g., "I helped you, now I need you to help me." INTJs tend to reject any imposition of obligation: it's like "giving" me a stereo system and then telling me now I owe you a $500 favor.

**Ambra** · 07-04-2012, 12:56 PM

You forgot when people ask you if you have tried something even the world's biggest dummy would have thought to try. Probably the first thing you did, and get frustrated if you don't try it again, because you're not listening to their advice.

Or when people use that opportunity to project their jealous issues on to your situation..."Have you ever thought about quitting your job and going on welfare?" Wtf? "I don't know where you get these ideas of grandeur when you're just like the rest of us. So and so just did this. That's what everybody does."

As a matter of fact, I think the most frustrating thing happens when someone cant see the solution, or goal, and offers advise geared toward a different ending or questions your ability to get to the goal.

I usually know exactly where I want to take something. Any diversion from the goal is frustrating. Input on the blue prints, cool. Trying to change my mind or question my intention, not cool.

**Tactical Panda** · 07-04-2012, 06:43 PM

	Originally Posted by gracious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It has been my experience that any offers of help that had not explicitly been sought out will not be welcome. INTJs prefer to solve their own problems and then proclaim their autonomous successes with pride.

You are a scary one.

I think this is insightful in regards to pride for both the former and the latter observations.

Scary as in formidable.

**mcantrim** · 07-04-2012, 06:55 PM

I find it difficult to people who want to "help" by telling me all about their experiences without regard to how they may or may not match mine.

Before offering help, I find it useful to ask the other person, "Do you want help with that?" or "Do you want feedback on that?" Most people are able to say no to either one if they choose and thereby save us both a lot of aggravationl

**Tactical Panda** · 07-04-2012, 07:05 PM

	Originally Posted by mcantrim To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I find it difficult to people who want to "help" by telling me all about their experiences without regard to how they may or may not match mine. Before offering help, I find it useful to ask the other person, "Do you want help with that?" or "Do you want feedback on that?" Most people are able to say no to either one if they choose and thereby save us both a lot of aggravationl

Hmm. I usually try a different approach.

I ask questions to find out if the issue is important, how it is causing them stress and why.

Usually finding the solution isn't too hard - it may take three seconds to find and communicate it if I don't think they have one but are looking for one, which seems relatively painless.

**mcantrim** · 07-04-2012, 07:07 PM

Many of the women I know really really hate it when you try to offer solutions. They are more interested in expressing their feelings than in finding a solution.

**Tactical Panda** · 07-04-2012, 07:10 PM

	Originally Posted by mcantrim To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Many of the women I know really really hate it when you try to offer solutions. They are more interested in expressing their feelings than in finding a solution.

I never said my approach was successful.
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I also find many of women dislike it when I try to offer solutions.

But I dislike problems that aren't solved.

If you tell me your problem, it takes me less brain power, time and energy to solve it than to try and determine if the person wants it solved or not. And if they get annoyed, it works to my objectives as long as no real harm is done. Assuming annoyed people don't stick around to keep annoying me with their drama and self destructive attention seeking.

I'm lazy like that.

But I know alternatives are better when it I can manage to make the effort and put some care into it.

**mcantrim** · 07-04-2012, 08:08 PM

Actually, in a number of my relationships with both females and males, we are able to communicate with each other about whether we want help with a problem or we are primarily asking the other person to allow us to vent. Either is a legitimate use of "friend" time. The problem comes when you have one person wanting to vent and the other person getting frustrated because they want to "fix" the problem and move on. Another good, general question is, "How can I help you." If another person wants to gripe and moan about the same thing over and over, then yes, I would consider it drama and probably start to avoid them. On the other hand, it is common for people to need to vent/grieve/complain before they are ready to problem solve.

Just something to consider - when you rush to tell another person how to solve their problem, don't you think there is a possibilty that that would view that as condescending and disrespectful? Might it be better to help them to consider their options and let them choose the best one?

**jndiii** · 07-05-2012, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by Tactical Panda
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I never said my approach was successful.
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I also find many of women dislike it when I try to offer solutions.

But I dislike problems that aren't solved.

If you tell me your problem, it takes me less brain power, time and energy to solve it than to try and determine if the person wants it solved or not. And if they get annoyed, it works to my objectives as long as no real harm is done. Assuming annoyed people don't stick around to keep annoying me with their drama and self destructive attention seeking.

I'm lazy like that.

But I know alternatives are better when it I can manage to make the effort and put some care into it.

Where it becomes an issue is that you're solving the wrong problem. And the problem you see may not even be a problem that bears "solving" in their eyes (e.g., like telling a P type to be "more organized").

You can still be lazy, though: just listen and pay attention and don't solve anything. The results may surprise you.

Dancingqueen · 07-05-2012, 06:57 AM

Unsolicited advice is generally seen as thinly veiled criticism. This applies to all MBTI types.

**Tactical Panda** · 07-05-2012, 10:04 AM

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Where it becomes an issue is that you're solving the wrong problem. And the problem you see may not even be a problem that bears "solving" in their eyes (e.g., like telling a P type to be "more organized"). You can still be lazy, though: just listen and pay attention and don't solve anything. The results may surprise you.

The problem may be that people think that an avoidable state of self destructiveness is something I find tolerable.
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Whatever they are going through may just be a symptom - one that won't be the last if the core issue isn't addressed. If they suffer because they prefer the drama of suffering, they are at conflict with themselves. It sort of seems... unhealthy.

Like a child prone to cutting themselves to get attention. While the child is tolerable the cutting is frowned upon, I suppose.

**mcantrim** · 07-05-2012, 11:29 AM

I guess the question here is if we are talking about interactions with people who are neurotic/dramatic or if we are talking about more or less normal people.

**jndiii** · 07-05-2012, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by Tactical Panda
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The problem may be that people think that an avoidable state of self destructiveness is something I find tolerable.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Whatever they are going through may just be a symptom - one that won't be the last if the core issue isn't addressed. If they suffer because they prefer the drama of suffering, they are at conflict with themselves. It sort of seems... unhealthy.

Like a child prone to cutting themselves to get attention. While the child is tolerable the cutting is frowned upon, I suppose.

	Originally Posted by mcantrim To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I guess the question here is if we are talking about interactions with people who are neurotic/dramatic or if we are talking about more or less normal people.

^^ Precisely.

Just because an INTJ regards some behavior as due to preferring the drama of suffering, it might actually be a normal human behavior of which INTJs are reluctant to partake.

Or, to put the shoe on the other foot, I know I resented my (now) ex-wife essentially wanting me to talk and act and behave in the same ways and for the same reasons she did (ESFJ reasons!). What she wanted was normal for her, but would be highly abnormal for me.

**mcantrim** · 07-05-2012, 01:14 PM

^Good point. When I am talking about people who are more or less not normal, I am talking about people who are more than two standard deviations from the mean - in other words outside of what would be considered standard variations in personalities.

07-03-2012, 08:42 PM	#1
Tactical Panda Core Member [133%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,328	Within this context INTJ is preference for Ni, Te, Fi and inferior Se, with this thread intending to focus on this type in particular in order to further a measure of understanding. Feel free to contribute or comment. My list won't cover them all. Forms of advice that annoy INTJs: 1. Vague criticisms intended to hinder decisive self improvement in order to maintain a status quo If somebody wants to help by being 'somebody' instead of solving the problem, I don't see any benefit when you consider that there are plenty of people out there who would better be able to actually solve the problem with less fuss. I find usually these people add problems to the mix due to poor character and strange dependency issues. Self improvement isn't a perpetual cycle of non-improvement and impotence as one batters themself against the same old issue they should have been able to deal with ages ago if better handled. Self improvement is a tough success followed by a hunt for a new success in the direction of the difficult but meaningful and required. The success is 'inner', but has 'outer' consequences. 2. White lies effectively used irresponsibly We will remember the lie long after its intended use - it is beyond people's capacity to responsibly deliver. It tends to be a crutch for taking the easy roads and is easily an issue where double standards are exploited and self interest is protected by people who claim benevolent intent as they attempt to avoid manipulation while dishing it out. When a white lie isn't needed, be responsible and end the deception. If you are irresponsible you are being negligent and thus unhelpful in the long run as far as tendencies go. When a white lie creates more problems than it merits, its use was poorly handled. I suggest self improve or cease in order to find an alternative method that is less destructive to others, for obvious reasons for those who claim good wishes for others. I don't particularly approve of white lies. They seem like a cop out for people who should spend more time on self improvement of mind, endurance and the ability to innovate better options. 3. Telling us it can't be done when it can be or already has been It seems hardly worth the time spent listening and understanding what is said on the matter if the conclusion is confidently wrong. The extent of strictly what is possible doesn't hinge on what is commonly practiced or the information that is currently circulating. Unusual method, if they work and when in good hands, can be enjoyable to implement when interest in them dwells there. 4. People who assume the important lessons for them are needed to be learnt by others While some lessons fall into that category, the motives and methods of others can differ from the over-eager teacher. Good will without understanding is depressing when it wastes time due to not investigating assumptions. And annoying if the mistaken teacher adopts a preachy moral high ground instead of activating the mind to effectively think. 5. People who expect obedience to conveniently avoid correction Pushing children with entitlement issues are annoying. When they spout double standards, it makes sense not to follow the paths they advocate - following their example or what they suggest is inferior to being a normal, adequate human being that is capable of intelligent and responsible learning. The latter is the obvious goal for people with realistic appraisals of the best they can achieve with the one limited lifetime worth of influence and awareness rather than some mini rightfully-treat-me-as-your-god delusion. - - - Things I find helpful: 1. Discussions minus the politics Describe a situation and the consequences that you see, and why what you think is important seems important. Don't attempt to infuse it with hidden messages and moralizing. The drama degrades your usefulness and desirability compared to people who don't have those sorts of issues getting in the way. It's pretty simple stuff. Less drama, more problem solving, and once the problem is adequately and solidly solved then improvement is the next sensible step. It seems like the intelligent path forward for people looking to overcome the challenges of life.
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07-04-2012, 09:34 AM	#2
gracious Core Member [341%] MBTI: INFJ Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 13,670	It has been my experience that any offers of help that had not explicitly been sought out will not be welcome. INTJs prefer to solve their own problems and then proclaim their autonomous successes with pride.
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07-04-2012, 12:56 PM	#5
Ambra Veteran Member [57%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 2,319	You forgot when people ask you if you have tried something even the world's biggest dummy would have thought to try. Probably the first thing you did, and get frustrated if you don't try it again, because you're not listening to their advice. Or when people use that opportunity to project their jealous issues on to your situation..."Have you ever thought about quitting your job and going on welfare?" Wtf? "I don't know where you get these ideas of grandeur when you're just like the rest of us. So and so just did this. That's what everybody does." As a matter of fact, I think the most frustrating thing happens when someone cant see the solution, or goal, and offers advise geared toward a different ending or questions your ability to get to the goal. I usually know exactly where I want to take something. Any diversion from the goal is frustrating. Input on the blue prints, cool. Trying to change my mind or question my intention, not cool.
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07-04-2012, 06:55 PM	#7
mcantrim Member [37%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,494	I find it difficult to people who want to "help" by telling me all about their experiences without regard to how they may or may not match mine. Before offering help, I find it useful to ask the other person, "Do you want help with that?" or "Do you want feedback on that?" Most people are able to say no to either one if they choose and thereby save us both a lot of aggravationl
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07-04-2012, 07:07 PM	#9
mcantrim Member [37%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,494	Many of the women I know really really hate it when you try to offer solutions. They are more interested in expressing their feelings than in finding a solution.
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07-04-2012, 08:08 PM	#11
mcantrim Member [37%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,494	Actually, in a number of my relationships with both females and males, we are able to communicate with each other about whether we want help with a problem or we are primarily asking the other person to allow us to vent. Either is a legitimate use of "friend" time. The problem comes when you have one person wanting to vent and the other person getting frustrated because they want to "fix" the problem and move on. Another good, general question is, "How can I help you." If another person wants to gripe and moan about the same thing over and over, then yes, I would consider it drama and probably start to avoid them. On the other hand, it is common for people to need to vent/grieve/complain before they are ready to problem solve. Just something to consider - when you rush to tell another person how to solve their problem, don't you think there is a possibilty that that would view that as condescending and disrespectful? Might it be better to help them to consider their options and let them choose the best one?
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07-05-2012, 06:57 AM	#13
Dancingqueen Core Member [126%] MBTI: iNTJ Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 5,055	Unsolicited advice is generally seen as thinly veiled criticism. This applies to all MBTI types.
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07-05-2012, 11:29 AM	#15
mcantrim Member [37%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,494	I guess the question here is if we are talking about interactions with people who are neurotic/dramatic or if we are talking about more or less normal people.
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07-05-2012, 01:14 PM	#17
mcantrim Member [37%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,494	^Good point. When I am talking about people who are more or less not normal, I am talking about people who are more than two standard deviations from the mean - in other words outside of what would be considered standard variations in personalities.
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