[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	One more thing. Anyone volunteering for Neighborhood Watch in an area that had experienced multiple recent burglaries would be a damned fool to do so with a CCL.

A concealed carry license is only necessary if you expect confrontations. Neighborhood watch is not supposed to confront. CATCH 22 YOU SAY?!

	What's the point of neighborhood watch if they can't follow and report suspicious activity? The reason 911 recommended that Zimmerman not continue following was for Zimmerman's own safety in case Zimmerman was right and Martin was indeed dangerous/criminal. Zimmerman chose to ignore his own safety for the potential benefit of his community.

No, the only people who are supposed to confront suspects are police. Here's why?

• The suspect might be dangerous.
• Officers must display identification, and are carefully monitored for behavior (because what they do affects court proceedings).
• Non-officers are rarely trained to actively defuse situations.
• Non-officers cannot legally apprehend a suspect (
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  ).
• Suspects have no legal responsibility to respond to non-officers.
• Non-officers have not taken the
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  .

	Have there been more burglaries in this particular neighborhood since the Martin killing? If not perhaps Zimmerman was right.

Except... not. Martin never committed any crime in the area.

Not to mention, criminals generally avoid places with lots of publicity. Like all the news media and whatnot crawling the area.

[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Zimmerman was an unidentifiable stranger to Martin. Martin was afraid of being harmed, and since running wasn't working, he tried fighting.

That's classic. So he "stood his ground" 70 yards from safety. Brilliant!

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As I said, being followed by a strange person is a harrowing experience. Male or female. To say it is a female-only experience is not only sexist, but ignores the fact that it's just plain fucking creepy.

I don't disagree. But the idea that he was "scared into fighting" is bullshit, pure and simple. Logical deduction alone destroys this theory.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Clearly I'm just a marijuana junkie. A stoner with no life. Not a guy who has an M.A. and a B.S. Nah, I couldn't earn a college degree.

I don't know who you are. I'll take your word for it. What I do know is that typically, teenagers brought up well with thier heads on straight do not get kicked out of school for smoking dope. Martin is not in very good company here, and it opens the door to question his mindset, motivations, etc.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	EXCEPT WE DON'T KNOW THAT. THAT'S ZIMMERMAN'S ACCOUNT.

Well we know it's supported by the broken nose, black eyes, gashes to the back of his head, etc. Martins only wound aside from the fatal gun shot wound was on his fist.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I love that I exposed your obvious sexism, and you have the audacity to say that. Nice. You'll make a great Republican.

Sexism? Whatever. I could understand a female being more vulnerable and have an awareness of that fact. If that makes me sexist, so be it.

I don't join herds. I leave that to the rest of you sheep to decide which one to join.

[Ray9]

It's not certain where all this information about who attacked who is coming from. People here seem to be manufaturing this information out of whole cloth. There has been no official version of the events leading to Martin's death yet people keep coming up with versions that suit their worldview. Hearsay is not evidence and that's all that's been released. Just because a person wants to believe something doesn't make it so. Logically the police probably acted appropriately from the beginning but that will now be decided by the courts. Some of these hyper-emotional outbursts are unbecoming.

[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's classic. So he "stood his ground" 70 yards from safety. Brilliant!

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	I don't disagree. But the idea that he was "scared into fighting" is bullshit, pure and simple. Logical deduction alone destroys this theory.

Except your "logical deduction" is based on false assumptions and assertions, without evidence to back them up.

	I don't know who you are. I'll take your word for it. What I do know is that typically, teenagers brought up well with thier heads on straight do not get kicked out of school for smoking dope.

Since I've student taught for a while in a high school, and it wasn't all that long ago I was in high school, I'll let you in on a little secret that you don't seem to get:

People don't do drugs because they want to be bad, or associate with bad types. People do drugs because they want to escape their pain and suffering, or they find this world too damn boring and dreary.

Teenagers "with their heads on straight" typically come from a more privileged background that actually teaches them both the positive and negative effects of certain substances.

	Martin is not in very good company here, and it opens the door to question his mindset, motivations, etc.

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? Motherfucker must be baaaaad.

	Well we know it's supported by the broken nose, black eyes, gashes to the back of his head, etc. Martins only wound aside from the fatal gun shot wound was on his fist.

Must we really go back to Stand Your Ground law again? I thought I shot that horse in the heart.

/pun in poor taste

	Sexism? Whatever. I could understand a female being more vulnerable and have an awareness of that fact. If that makes me sexist, so be it.

You instantly assumed I was female because I had an experience I found extremely scary, in which I had been followed by a creepy man. If you want to talk about biases, you have only to look in a mirror.

	Originally Posted by Ray9
	It's not certain where all this information about who attacked who is coming from. People here seem to be manufaturing this information out of whole cloth. There has been no official version of the events leading to Martin's death yet people keep coming up with versions that suit their worldview.

Somebody pinch me, I must be dreaming. I actually agree with Ray9!

	Originally Posted by Ray9
	Hearsay is not evidence and that's all that's been released.

...well, nobody's perfect.

[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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Nice link. Cute picture there of Trayvon too!

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Except your "logical deduction" is based on false assumptions and assertions, without evidence to back them up.

No. They're actually based upon what evidence has been revealed thus far. At the beginning of my initial post I asserted the right to reverse my conclusions upon examination of more evidence. But if what we know so far is not contradicted by additional evidence, Zimmerman did nothing illegal.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Since I've student taught for a while in a high school, and it wasn't all that long ago I was in high school, I'll let you in on a little secret that you don't seem to get: People don't do drugs because they want to be bad, or associate with bad types. People do drugs because they want to escape their pain and suffering, or they find this world too damn boring and dreary.

Dude! I'm really sorry you've had such a shitty life! But that's no reason to side with others like you against "the man". Just because Zimmerman was having a bit of a successful life and volunteering in the community is no reason to hate him.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Teenagers "with their heads on straight" typically come from a more privileged background that actually teaches them both the positive and negative effects of certain substances.

Again, try not to hate Zimmerman because he came from a more privileged background than Martin, there's no logic in that.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ? Motherfucker must be baaaaad.

Eating skittles and drinking tea doesn't make one "pure of heart". It'd be nice though to have your worldview. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Must we really go back to Stand Your Ground law again? I thought I shot that horse in the heart. /pun in poor taste

Poor reasoning as well.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[ You instantly assumed I was female because I had an experience I found extremely scary, in which I had been followed by a creepy man. If you want to talk about biases, you have only to look in a mirror.

Of course I have biases. I'm human as I assume you are. I just make every effort not to let mine adversely impact common-sense.

[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Nice link. Cute picture there of Trayvon too!

I know, it is.

	No. They're actually based upon what evidence has been revealed thus far. At the beginning of my initial post I asserted the right to reverse my conclusions upon examination of more evidence. But if what we know so far is not contradicted by additional evidence, Zimmerman did nothing illegal.

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.

You got multiple facts wrong on that first post.

I repeat, "Except your "logical deduction" is based on false assumptions and assertions, without evidence to back them up."

	Dude! I'm really sorry you've had such a shitty life! But that's no reason to side with others like you against "the man".

It's so convenient to punch straw men huh? Better than punching a real person I bet.

Against the man? That stereotype still exists?

	Again, try not to hate Zimmerman because he came from a more privileged background than Martin, there's no logic in that.

That straw man fighting back yet? No? Darn.

	Eating skittles and drinking tea doesn't make one "pure of heart".

"it opens the door to question his mindset, motivations, etc."


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	Of course I have biases. I'm human as I assume you are. I just make every effort not to let mine adversely impact common-sense. You should try it.

"Le sens commun est fort rare."


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[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You got multiple facts wrong on that first post.

Well name them. Let's sort them out logically one by one.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"it opens the door to question his mindset, motivations, etc." To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Is this your version of irony?

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"Le sens commun est fort rare."- To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No shit! You're telling me?

[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well name them. Let's sort them out logically one by one. (though by now I'm highly skeptical of your ability to do so)

In other words, you want me to review our entire conversation since we started?

Here we go:

• "The neighborhood in question had a recent history of burglary by black youths." -- We don't know this. The only other account I can find mentions two black men, but that's it.
• "Trayvon Martin's blood test revealed the presence of THC." -- As we've discussed, the amount of THC was irrelevant -- THC stays in the blood days, or even weeks, after the last time marijuana has been smoked. The amount in his system didn't make a difference.
• "even though Zimmerman probably believed himself to be in possible danger." -- Again, a neighborhood watchperson should not put themselves in danger.
• "Martin did not call 911, did not run, attempt to evade" -- Except he did.
• "or explain his presence to an adult" -- This is a supposition. We don't know exactly what happened in those moments before the fight.
• "which would be considered acceptable depending upon Martin's state of mind" -- See above THC comment
• "what we have here is a defiant teenager" -- Another supposition without evidence.
• "If one is tasked as a neighborhood watchman such actions might even be expected." -- Wrong. You do not confront a suspect as a neighborhood watchperson.
• "Physical assault is illegal." -- In this case, we don't know who started the fight. If it was Trayvon, he would be protected under SYG laws. Zimmerman would not.
• "the conclusion must be that Martin was the physical aggressor." -- You make a logical leap here that is not substantiated. The girlfriend on the phone with Martin heard what sounded like Martin being pushed. Again, the evidence is circumstantial at best, but "logical" assumptions do not work here.
• "Had Zimmerman not been armed he may well be the lifeless victim in this case." -- A baseless assertion.
• "Here in Texas just a few weeks before this all happened a large teenager jumped out of a car and, without provocation, sucker-punched a 40-something man who was walking down the street. The story is this was done "just for kicks"." -- Irrelevant

"People don't do drugs because they want to be bad, or associate with bad types. People do drugs because they want to escape their pain and suffering, or they find this world too damn boring and dreary."

I've been high a total of... 3 times I think? I'm 22 now. Help me, I must be a junkie.

	Is this your version of irony?

Irony: It just happens!

[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[*]"The neighborhood in question had a recent history of burglary by black youths." -- We don't know this. The only other account I can find mentions two black men, but that's it.

You're the only one questioning the validity of this evidence. There are even references to the recent criminal activity in the HOA letters along with references to the Neighborhood Watch.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[*]"Trayvon Martin's blood test revealed the presence of THC." -- As we've discussed, the amount of THC was irrelevant -- THC stays in the blood days, or even weeks, after the last time marijuana has been smoked. The amount in his system didn't make a difference.

What part of "not intended to imply impaired judgement during the incident" do you not understand? The relevance of THC is in what it reveals about TM's character and his obvious lack of respect for authority and law.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[*]"even though Zimmerman probably believed himself to be in possible danger." -- Again, not what a neighborhood watchperson should do.

That's your opinion. As GZ was the neighborhood volunteer and concerned citizen, he gets to use his own judgement which, though flawed perhaps, was not criminal.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[*]"Martin did not call 911, did not run, attempt to evade" -- Except he did.

Right. This is where you remind us that TM chose to "stand his ground" a 3/4 lob wedge from his safe-haven. He just couldn't quite make it there. And during the preceeding 5-6 minutes in which he feared for his own safety he couldn't have knocked on a door, called 911, and in an all out sprint he couldn't outrun GZ for the final 70 yards. Just. Couldn't. Do it.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[*]"or explain his presence to an adult" -- This is a supposition. We don't know exactly what happened in those moments before the fight.

Correct, it's supposition. But logical supposition given that GZ endured quite a beating before shooting TM. There's no evidence whatsoever to deduce that GZ had evil intent. It's perfectly logical to conclude based on the totality of other available evidence that had TM simply explained his visit to his dad's fiance, GZ would have probably watched him all the way there until inside and left it at that.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[*]"which would be considered acceptable depending upon Martin's state of mind" -- See above THC comment

Yes. Please do.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[*]"what we have here is a defiant teenager" -- Another supposition without evidence.

People of intelligence can deduce by the THC present in his blood and the beating he administered to GZ that there was defiance involved. Defiance of the law (smoking dope is illegal ya know?) Defiance of an adult who demonstrated suspicion.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[*]"If one is tasked as a neighborhood watchman such actions might even be expected." -- Wrong. You do not confront a suspect as a neighborhood watchperson.

No. YOU do not. What I do is at MY discretion so long as it stays within the boundaries of the law. GZ's actions did that, best we can tell from what we know thus far.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[*]"Physical assault is illegal." -- In this case, we don't know who started the fight. If it was Trayvon, he would be protected under SYG laws. Zimmerman would not.

Ass backwards. You cannot resort to physical violence as a FIRST option, which is precisely what it appears TM did do. He had other options all of which were more reasonable and safer for him personally. He made a very poor choice and it cost him his life.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[*]"the conclusion must be that Martin was the physical aggressor." -- You make a logical leap here that is not substantiated. The girlfriend on the phone with Martin heard what sounded like Martin being pushed. Again, the evidence is circumstantial at best, but "logical" assumptions do not work here.

Um, it ain't much of a leap when one party has had the hell beat out of them and the other party's only injury (aside from the fatal GSW) is to his fist.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[*]"Here in Texas just a few weeks before this all happened a large teenager jumped out of a car and, without provocation, sucker-punched a 40-something man who was walking down the street. The story is this was done "just for kicks"." -- Irrelevant

Not entirely. The relevance lies in what can happen. It demonstrates that teenagers, while not complete, mature adults are close enough physically to inflict lethal force.

[Urshulgi]

BWhen I lived in a predominantly low-income black apartment complex, I tried not to judge the people there as being likely criminals.

I got robbed at gunpoint by two black teenagers, as thanks for my tolerance.

Sorry, but profiling exists because it fucking works.

[Vagrant]

	You're the only one questioning the validity of this evidence. There are even references to the recent criminal activity in the HOA letters along with references to the Neighborhood Watch.

I never denied there was crime in the area. However, you're asserting they're all black. I'm saying there's no evidence to indicate that.

	The relevance of THC is in what it reveals about TM's character and his obvious lack of respect for authority and law.

It indicates nothing but your prejudice for those who choose to use it.

	That's your opinion. As GZ was the neighborhood volunteer and concerned citizen, he gets to use his own judgement which, though flawed perhaps, was not criminal.

Not, it wasn't criminal. But it was an extremely poor decision on his part, one he should've followed the dispatcher on. One he should've followed his neighborhood watch training on.

	Right. This is where you remind us that TM chose to "stand his ground" a 3/4 lob wedge from his safe-haven. He just couldn't quite make it there. And during the preceeding 5-6 minutes in which he feared for his own safety he couldn't have knocked on a door, called 911, and in an all out sprint he couldn't outrun GZ for the final 70 yards. Just. Couldn't. Do it.

And here's where you're making illogical assertions and assumptions. We have no idea who confronted who. We have no idea if GZ decided to get aggressive while Martin was catching his breath, or if Martin turned around to fight. WE DON'T KNOW. What we do know is that TM did in fact run on several occasions, and his path was headed toward his dad's fiancee's house.

	Correct, it's supposition. But logical supposition given that GZ endured quite a beating before shooting TM.

No, it's not a logical supposition. Some evidence suggests that GZ shoved TM first -- which would explain TM fighting back. But GZ's account differs. To suggest you have some insight the police don't have is insane.

	There's no evidence whatsoever to deduce that GZ had evil intent.

I doubt he did. I don't think GZ is an evil person. Just a person who made some incredibly poor decisions given the situation.

	It's perfectly logical to conclude based on the totality of other available evidence that had TM simply explained his visit to his dad's fiance, GZ would have probably watched him all the way there until inside and left it at that.

Another baseless assertion. We don't know that, and there is no way we could conclude that.

	Defiance of the law (smoking dope is illegal ya know?)

He had already been punished by his school for this. But I guess punishment once isn't enough. I guess he deserves
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, huh?

	Defiance of an adult who demonstrated suspicion.

Defiance to what? Defiance to a man who has been chasing you for some time without making his intentions clear? Yeah, I'd be pretty fucking pissed at him too.

	No. YOU do not. What I do is at MY discretion so long as it stays within the boundaries of the law. GZ's actions did that, best we can tell from what we know thus far.

Neighborhood watch classes teach you specifically to stay away from the suspect/perpetrator. For the multiple reasons I mentioned earlier. George Zimmerman was working on his criminal justice degree -- the guy wanted to be an officer. He assumed that he could go in just like the cops and everything would be all hunky-dory. In other words, he was acting like a vigilante, not a neighborhood watchperson.

	Ass backwards. You cannot resort to physical violence as a FIRST option, which is precisely what it appears TM did do. He had other options all of which were more reasonable and safer for him personally. He made a very poor choice and it cost him his life.

AGAIN, YOU ARE ASSERTING SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T KNOW. WE DON'T KNOW WHO WAS THE FIRST AGGRESSOR. DO I NEED TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS SOME MORE?

Regardless of who threw the first punch, TM was justified in self-defense under the SYG law, as he believed he was in imminent danger.

	Um, it ain't much of a leap when one party has had the hell beat out of them and the other party's only injury (aside from the fatal GSW) is to his fist.

Have you never been in a fight either? It is completely possible for the initial aggressor to get beaten the hell out of without the defender suffering a scratch. To assume otherwise is naivete.

It is unlikely TM would have tried to kill GZ -- He had little incentive to kill him, just incentive to get him to stop pursuit. The injuries GZ suffered actually look relatively innocuous for head injuries. Head injuries typically gush significantly more blood than those photos show.

	Not entirely. The relevance lies in what can happen. It demonstrates that teenagers, while not complete, mature adults are close enough physically to inflict lethal force.

And cows eat grass.

It's still irrelevant.

[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I never denied there was crime in the area. However, you're asserting they're all black. I'm saying there's no evidence to indicate that.

Yes I am. Because it was reported and established that the recent rash of burglaries in the area were believed to have been committed by blacks.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It indicates nothing but your prejudice for those who choose to use it.

You couldn't be more wrong. In fact I've told my own kids, two of which are teenage males right now that personally, I can't see the logical justification for alcohol being legal and marijuana illegal. Makes no sense to me however, I've also told them that for as long as they remain in my house and under my care and support they'll obey the laws as written. When they're out on their own supporting themselves, paying taxes like the rest of us they can choose to break laws at their own discretion so long as they understand and are prepared to deal with the consequences.

One of the consequences of breaking laws (whether as an adult or as a teenager) is being evaluated as someone who has less than a full measure of respect for authority. TM obviously fits this description.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Not, it wasn't criminal. But it was an extremely poor decision on his part, one he should've followed the dispatcher on. One he should've followed his neighborhood watch training on.

First of all there's no proof that he didn't try to follow the advice he was given. The early edited audiotape made it seem as though he didn't. Now it seems there's a version where he responded "OK" before complaining that "they always get away" or something to that effect.
But even if he absolutely didn't follow that advice it's not a criminal act, and everything that transpires for the remainder of his lifetime cannot be blamed on the failure to follow this advice. It's amazing to me that some of you sheep can reverse the roles in your own mind as completely as you're doing. One person can be in fear for his life simply because he's being followed yet the other isn't in fear for his life after having his nose broken and while still in the process of being beaten? C'mon, get real.
Whatever "poor or questionable" choices GZ made, once he's on the ground with a broken nose screaming for help he's become the victim. That's really the bottom-line of the case, no matter what else you believe happened or what you believe led to it.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And here's where you're making illogical assertions and assumptions. We have no idea who confronted who. We have no idea if GZ decided to get aggressive while Martin was catching his breath, or if Martin turned around to fight. WE DON'T KNOW. What we do know is that TM did in fact run on several occasions, and his path was headed toward his dad's fiancee's house.

You're right that we don't know who confronted whom or "who started the fight". But here's what we do know; only one of the two were screaming for help and based upon the physical condition of the two actors at the conclusion of the confrontation only one person was in need of help until the gunshot. The person in need of help prior to the gunshot was GZ. So no matter what else happened or is speculated upon TM was winning the fight and had effectively ended the risk of "mugging" or whatever he thought was going to happen. TM could have and should have ceased beating GZ but he didn't. That's why he's dead.