[Thales]

So, it would seem I've run into somewhat of a dilemma. As of this past May I have graduated with both my Associate of Arts and my high school diploma. I would consider going to university to give myself some more time to make decisions, but alas I did not study or try hard in school at all. As a consequence my GPA is nothing remarkable, and I doubt I could get enough money in scholarships and such to go for university.

My options have been narrowed down to: get another two year degree in a specific field of Information Technology (such as Computer Engineering Technology, Information Systems Security, or Networking Technology), get as many certifications as possible, and try my best to see if anyone will hire me when I do not have experience and only possess a passion for the field of IT.

My goal was to get a contract with Facebook and pursue a full-time position once it opened. I was luckily accepted for an interview, but I did not make it past that. I did a follow up with the interviewers (only one has replied thus far, sadly) but her feedback was: work on teamwork (team building skills), and work experience. I was praised for my professionalism and resume. Since that fell through, I have since posted my resume online on Monster and have received an e-mail from another contracting agency that was interested in speaking with me (they haven't replied back yet; may have to give them a call).

Where I live there are quite a few data centers coming around (and I would love to work in them) but I believe that all interviews will end the same (as Facebook) and want me to have more work experience. What are some suggestions that I can do to obtain this work experience? I'm extremely passionate for the field of IT, and am willing to do work in just about any division of it (programming, networking, security, design, help desk). However, when I look around, I just do not see any job positions that I'm likely to be accepted for. They all want years of experience in what they're hiring for. Should I just begin applying for these and see if they're willing to let me in the door with what I know, and let me learn what I do not on the job?

[CrudeHypothesis]

Ever considered entrepreneuring your own ideas?

[sentientbeing]

Experience is more important than academic credentials in the IT world (especially software)

What field do you want to work in?

If it is related to software/web development, you should start learning the languages and methodologies by reading and practicing on your own. You can get a cheap amazon server and deploy your applications, having something to show is more impressive than a degree.

AS degree does not really mean much for software development. If you plan to do computer support, networking, and other IT related jobs, it maybe a good complement for a certificate. Otherwise, it is better to pursue a BS/BA degree because most jobs require it.

Gain more experience, find a concentration and improve your skills.
For school, take out loans or get grants, it will be a good investment.

[Axion004]

(To some extent) I have absolutely no idea what I want to do and I have a Bachelor's degree and work > 50 hours per week. I think you should try an internship before going directly into IT(I work at a software company and I really don't want to spend the rest of my life working in software. Math/Science are much more interesting).

[mieu]

Internships--you don't always need to be in school to get one, and they don't expect you to have experience.

What made her say that you need to work on teamwork?

[Still Standing]

Doesn't sound like an INTJ thing, but would volunteering be an option?

A few things I've just found on a major volunteering website in my area:

	Volunteer computer programmer needed to work on publicity materials and the organization's official website. Requirements: experience and interest in computer programming and in presentations involving graphics (pictures, videos, charts, etc.).

	Volunteer needed to assist with the development and maintenance of the Citizen Factory website. This will involve working to resolve bugs and develop new features using Ruby on Rails.

	Volunteer computer technician needed to assist with various technical equipment problems. It's not necessary to be at the centre on a regular basis, but only when problems occur.

[Thales]

	Originally Posted by CrudeHypothesis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ever considered entrepreneuring your own ideas?

I have. I believe that I will be starting up a few projects that are of interest to me, and then go through with the one I believe in the most. I think that this would look good on a resume and beef up some type of a "work experience." I'd also enjoy it, so that's a plus to that.

On a side note, anyone interested in creating/working on a project (or projects) with me? I think it'd be fun to make one as a team.

	Originally Posted by sentientbeing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Experience is more important than academic credentials in the IT world (especially software) Gain more experience, find a concentration and improve your skills.

That's a conundrum, isn't it? Experience is more important, but how does one get experience when they can't get a job due to lack of experience? The answer would be to do internships or volunteer work (as mentioned below), but there is no other way to do it unless you find an employer who is willing to hire you without it.

	Originally Posted by Axion004 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	(To some extent) I have absolutely no idea what I want to do and I have a Bachelor's degree and work > 50 hours per week. I think you should try an internship before going directly into IT(I work at a software company and I really don't want to spend the rest of my life working in software. Math/Science are much more interesting).

I'd be fine working more than fifty hours a week. The contract with Facebook was a minimum of forty a week, and averaging 60 (according to the technicians already working there.)

Thank you mieu and Axion004 for mentioning internships. I had completely forgot them and will begin immediately searching for available ones and sending some e-mails to companies that I would like to try to begin internships with.

	Originally Posted by mieu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What made her say that you need to work on teamwork?

I'm not sure, really. My friends said that the way I answered some of the questions gave the vibe of an extreme loner, but I don't really think so. I mean.. I work in a grocery store currently and people love me, so I'm most certainly not that bad. After all, in a data center, you can often go ten hours without even seeing anyone so I don't even see how it would be a bad thing.

I think I really ended up screwing the interview though by falling into their open-ended questions which lead to me answering the "illegal" questions they aren't allowed to forwardly ask you. (Such as age, parent's marital status, etc.) Probably was also a put-off I asked for a two week notice. Oh the regrets!

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Doesn't sound like an INTJ thing, but would volunteering be an option?

If I cannot find any internships, I will most certainly be looking into this route as well. Whatever I can do to get some experience on my hands will help me out majorly. Thank you for the suggestion! It's greatly appreciated.

[LifesEcstasy]

I really think you are overlooking the teamwork aspect in that feedback from Facebook. Any company knows that experience can be gotten on the job if you are the right candidate. Being the right candidate is more about how likely it is that you will fit in and work with others than it is years of experience. The last person any company wants to hire is someone who is brilliant at their job but gets everyone else off-side in the process. They end up firing these individuals. Workplaces are about working with others even if the others are crap at their jobs or haven't a clue. Employers still value your ability to get along more than they do your actual expertise, especially at the entry level.

I would be focusing less on the IT experience and more on building up a case for you being a great teamworker. Being great at teamwork means...

You acknowledge other people's point of view
Decisions are a consensus or collaborative effort more than they are your decisions
You encourage and praise other people
You value the input of others

Unfortunately a lot of INTJs come across as loaded guns, people likely to work alone, disregard other people's input and point out the flaws in other people's work. That will get you close to nowhere in the corporate world. The ultimate team working ability is a position where you are a team leader.

Ever wondered why ExFx's are so successful? Because they spend the majority of their time making other people feel validated and good. They don't even have to be very skilled at their own job as long as they are good at the other part of it.

[Autumnleaf]

Don't sweat it. You did well for just graduating. Focus on the direction they gave you and do the leg work while applying for more jobs. As long as you keep at it and don't let it get you down you will eventually land where you want to be.

fire
see where you hit
recalibrate
fire again
see where you hit
recalibrate
fire again...
until you hit the middle of what you are aiming at

[Doppelbock]

A
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I though this was going to be a thread about the series "Lost." ;-)

(LOVED that show.)

Srsly. My advice is to not bother with 2-year degrees. Either get a B.S. and more, or try for the no-degree route. I have two guys working for me with no degrees; one making $100K+ and the other in the upper $80K range. If you are good enough, you can get away with this. At least in techy fields. The trick is to become the resident expert at some fairly narrow but much-needed techy discipline.

[mieu]

	Originally Posted by Thales To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm not sure, really. My friends said that the way I answered some of the questions gave the vibe of an extreme loner, but I don't really think so. I mean.. I work in a grocery store currently and people love me, so I'm most certainly not that bad. After all, in a data center, you can often go ten hours without even seeing anyone so I don't even see how it would be a bad thing.

Unfortunately in the hiring world, being a loner is never going to be a good thing. Ever. Even if you're a one-man band, you're always going to have to work well with at least your manager (and they have to trust you not to be a total weirdo to whomever you come in contact with on your projects and thus represent the team/department poorly), and self-declared loners tend not to move upwards and flourish, because many times the higher positions involve them managing other people. Hinting that you would rather work alone is pretty much a death sentence when working for a big company. Even if you didn't hint at it, I wouldn't be so nonchalant that they may have gotten the impression from you overall.

What data centers have you been in? o_O. I guess if you're the only person working on the architecture then you wouldn't see anyone, and it'd depend on where your actual 'desk' is. I thought Facebook known for it's open-air offices--that they don't even have cubes, just big round tables seating multiple people and their computers. That's what most expose's on what Facebook's employee culture seem to indicate. Then again if you interviewed for work at one of their data centers, it may not be at Facebook HQ, so big assumption on my part.

	I think I really ended up screwing the interview though by falling into their open-ended questions which lead to me answering the "illegal" questions they aren't allowed to forwardly ask you. (Such as age, parent's marital status, etc.) Probably was also a put-off I asked for a two week notice. Oh the regrets!

[Thales]

Originally Posted by LifesEcstasy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I really think you are overlooking the teamwork aspect in that feedback from Facebook. Any company knows that experience can be gotten on the job if you are the right candidate. Being the right candidate is more about how likely it is that you will fit in and work with others than it is years of experience. Unfortunately a lot of INTJs come across as loaded guns, people likely to work alone, disregard other people's input and point out the flaws in other people's work. That will get you close to nowhere in the corporate world. The ultimate team working ability is a position where you are a team leader.

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Don't sweat it. You did well for just graduating. Focus on the direction they gave you and do the leg work while applying for more jobs. As long as you keep at it and don't let it get you down you will eventually land where you want to be.

	Originally Posted by Doppelbock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Srsly. My advice is to not bother with 2-year degrees. Either get a B.S. and more, or try for the no-degree route. I have two guys working for me with no degrees; one making $100K+ and the other in the upper $80K range. If you are good enough, you can get away with this. At least in techy fields. The trick is to become the resident expert at some fairly narrow but much-needed techy discipline.

I ended up getting the job at Facebook. They contacted me once they heard I was looking for other jobs to tell me that I was actually still being considered for two jobs that were opening two months from now. (I didn't know that.) They ended up calling me yesterday instead of the end of August, however.

Originally Posted by mieu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

What data centers have you been in? o_O. I guess if you're the only person working on the architecture then you wouldn't see anyone, and it'd depend on where your actual 'desk' is. I thought Facebook known for it's open-air offices--that they don't even have cubes, just big round tables seating multiple people and their computers. That's what most expose's on what Facebook's employee culture seem to indicate. Then again if you interviewed for work at one of their data centers, it may not be at Facebook HQ, so big assumption on my part.

Only this one. There are no real desks akin to what you're thinking of. There are just more of.. lounge areas. You're given a laptop to do all your work with, and rolling desks for equipment you need to pack around while fixing servers. Also, no cubes at all. You're right about that. There are some of those 'big round tables' (I'd say more oblong, though).


Again, thanks for all the ideas in this thread. I'll keep them in mind whenever I find myself lost (hopefully I won't, but you never know) again.