[firebee]

Originally Posted by Ravendicon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

But it's not in the context of a situation requiring hyper-specific gender terms. I've overheard more than one conversation now, in which people wished to be referred to as female or male bodied. These were both casual conversations in which the distinction was ultimately irrelevant. Now, I understand that for somebody who is more genderqueer it might be simply more comfortable being referred to as such, but I don't see why it has to become a cultural norm.

There's nothing that says that it has to be a cultural norm for people to refer to themselves in this way, or for people to request being called a given thing. There are plenty of things that are requested and granted as a matter of goodwill between people without establishing the action in question as a universal cultural norm.

	Originally Posted by Ravendicon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's hyperbolic to say, but why should our society have 18 categories of gender?

Why should it not? Not to be excessively vehicular, but I probably see more than 18 models of car on any given drive to work and there certainly exist many more. The world has not yet exploded, and I'm perfectly capable of interacting with them according to the rule "If you don't want to be in an accident, don't drive into it" while still retaining the option of more individualized consideration as appropriate.

Similarly, it's not all that hard to interact with people according to the rule "If you don't want to be rude, call people what they prefer to be called."

Or for that matter by the rule "If you don't want to hear terminology that you object to, don't eavesdrop on other people's conversations."

---------- Post added 02-06-2012 at 10:09 PM ----------

And concerning the question of how "If you don't want to be rude, call people what they prefer to be called"...

Let us say that I had some sets of friends in college -- more than 18 of them even. All 18 of them even had different names. Not one of them the same name. Imagine!

I managed somehow. Then Miss Ravenbottom married Mr. Snodgrass and suddenly became known as Mrs. Snodgrass. Oh no! I have been calling this person Miss Ravenbottom for ONE ENTIRE YEAR, and now she has not only changed her title but her last name as well? This is truly vexing. Still, over the period of time between the preacher saying "I now present to you Mr. and Mrs. Snodgrass" and, er, the time the happy couple exited the stage... somehow I managed to comprehend that the way we refer to people changes.

So we have come to an uneasy peace with that point. Now Miss Winklepicker has married Mr. Crum. Okay. I get this. I do. She is now called Mr... No! Mrs. Crum. What? "Mrs. Winklepicker-Crum"? OH FUCK. You mean not only do people change their names with marriage, they do so according to different systems sometimes?

I ask you, is this truly reasonable? Do we not only have to remember who married our friends, but also their preferences regarding how to stick their names together? I mean, given that they're already making me remember so many blasted names and given that you could conceivably come up with any number of name-changing systems up to and including John and Suzie suddenly demanding to be called Lady Queen of Dagrolphia and Sir Grand Poobah of Everything (respectively) just because they happen to now be having socially-sanctioned sex?

...

With gender variance it's much simpler, obviously. Like the conversation I had awhile back --

"So, Clara -- is she still dating that nutcase Loretta who dumped us in that horrific conflagration of drama?"
"No, Mike finally broke up with Loretta. Thank Sciencey Buddha."
"Oh, he's going by Mike now?"
"Yep."
"Cool. So what's he up to lately then?"

End of problem. Simple!

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by Ravendicon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yay.. zibber's back! I must say I didn't miss your "gender doesn't exist" arguments. Sexual Dimorphism is a reality! That's mostly what I'm talking about here. A conversation about behavioral gender roles, is another thing entirely.

Yay! It sounds less stupid if I make it bold! And more true!

If you don't have time to add the slightest smidgen of a foundation for your ridiculous claim, I don't have time to continue acknowledging you.

[Aven]

	Originally Posted by AGHRMS To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm Gender Fluid, meaning I can be as either gender depending on, in my case, my partner's preference, and am Pansexual, so I understand what your saying. Hm... Yes, I think I can identify with you in that aspect. On an unrelated note, nice Clover avatar.

I am not sure people who do not feel this way can actually break it apart and understand it successfully. I don't even think we can, not fully.

And thanks :].

[AlfredSchnittke]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The sex binary is a human concept and absolutely open to criticism. Be careful not to confuse human concepts with Actually Existing Things.

Dude, do you know that human thoughts are Actually Existing Things? Thus making Human concepts Actually Existing Things as well??

Dude, I know, like...my mind...was like, so totally blown when I realized this! fuuckkkk brahhh, it's like, the craziest shit EVER!!

---------- Post added 05-03-2012 at 06:25 AM ----------

I really try not to think about how my so-called gender influences me...

I would prefer to be fluid, but it seems unrealistic.

If I could come to possess a vagina in the bedroom whenever I wanted, or just switch out my penis for one at any time, then sure, I would agree, it's all fluid etc...

But at the end of the day, despite my intense desires to have a vagina, I look down and have to deal with the reality that there is a penis there. It sucks, but that's just how it is...life is absurd.

How do you guys that identify as "fluid" deal with this? How do you ignore your genitals?

They, just like any other part of the human body, inform your conscious experience in some way...don't they?... I think it's a huge mistake to think that they don't. Consciousness is not "all in the brain", it's a bodily phenomena, and the genitals surely affect the reality of each individual in some way.

[MechanicalSun]

Originally Posted by Aven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

There is this term called "genderqueer" [google it], which more or less describes how I feel towards gender. But it's still not good enough. Humans are human to me no matter what they look like. I understand females and males act differently and I understand the limitations of, say, restrooms and swimming pool changing rooms. Even so, I cannot look at people as anything but people when it comes down to it, I find it strange that people are being hurt over stupid things like their sexual identity. However, I myself don't consider myself male or female, I am just human. I don't feel like a female, I don't feel like a male, sometimes I feel more feminine and sometimes more masculine (more often than not). In the end though, gender is not important to me like it is for a lot of other people. Anyone else?

Conceptually:
Are you what you think/feel you are?

Psychologically:
Your issue appears to be related to an identity problem.

Biologically:
Sexual reproduction brings many advantages, like genetic diversity -> higher probability of surviving (natural selection pressure and genetic drift).

Males and females ARE different, from a chromosomic/phenotypic/physiological point of view.

You might have some hormonal imbalance.

In general: You seem to feel superior/independent/exempt to the idea of male/female social niches, and convinced of it's validity. But, at the same time, you look for acceptance of others(i.e this forum) of your position. Showing thereby inconsistency.

	I find it strange that people are being hurt over stupid things like their sexual identity

You judge/conceive others as stupid for having a different position/emotional response than yours towards sexual identity. In my opinion, this could be used against your own stance.

As for myself: I am a human, a man and accept it. Thou I also understand that, the latter, doesn't imply that my intellectual capacity -for a given task- is any better/worse from that of females.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by AlfredSchnittke To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Dude, do you know that human thoughts are Actually Existing Things? Thus making Human concepts Actually Existing Things as well?? Dude, I know, like...my mind...was like, so totally blown when I realized this! fuuckkkk brahhh, it's like, the craziest shit EVER!!

All human concepts are completely valid?

[firebee]

	Originally Posted by MechanicalSun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Your issue appears to be related to an identity problem.

The issue appears to be related to an identity. Where's the problem?

[AlfredSchnittke]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	All human concepts are completely valid?

If "Actual Existence of Things" is your criteria of "valid" then yes.

[Aven]

Hm, I don't see a problem whatsoever
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
, I never said I had an issue.

And everyone judges, however that is not what I meant. I don't think the people who do not view things as me are stupid, I find the concept of people being hurt over sexual orientation stupid, there is a difference.
Other than that, your thoughts seem to be all over the place, what is exactly your point?
Also, by the way, if you want to somehow imply I have a "stance", that is just not the case, I am not arguing for the way I see the world to be the standard, as so many people here seem to think, I am simply sharing how I see the world.
Keep in mind any sort of argument for argument's sake will be ignored.

[Vagrant]

I think the INTJ personality type is gender neutral by definition. "Gender" is typically determined by a society, rather than biology. Since INTJs don't understand societal traditions, most of us tend to be gender neutral (mentally).

I'm an INTJ male, but I've never identified with either "gender" of society. I see myself as being a mix of both in my mind. Physiologically I'm male and attracted to women, but I don't see myself as male or female.

[linnet]

For years I struggled with gender identity. I grew up in a tiny Albertan town of roughly 800 people full of cowboys and housewives. For years the thought of being lesbian terrified me, as well as the way sometimes I felt like a boy instead of a girl. Just in the last few years I've become exposed to all sorts of gender expression; the idea of anything but bisexual, gay, or straight blew my mind.
I've come to realize that I don't identify predominantly with any gender, and that I experience varying degrees of masculinity and femininity depending on the day. I'm attracted to people more than their bodies. It's been such a struggle to get to this point; everyone in the town I used to live in still believes I'm lesbian because my hair is too short and my clothes are too baggy.

It seems ridiculous that people discriminate over something as ambiguous as sexual preference. Gender seems like such a social construct, like labeling people based on their dessert preference or something.

[MotiveToSuture]

I personally identify as agender. Gender is a none issue for me and it's not something I really care about at all. The only time it ever comes up is when I have people in my life trying to force me into rigid gender roles that don't apply to me.

	It's hyperbolic to say, but why should our society have 18 categories of gender? It seems like a hell of a lot of overhead for people to cater to.

Because unfortunately human beings resist simplicity. Everything is infinitely more complicated then it appears to be. People also have the need to label everything.

[Shadeylark]

meh, man, woman, black, white, gay, straight; i usually just don't think about it.

for myself, i identify as a straight white male. but the importance of that to me isn't so much that it occupies my every waking thought. if you were to ask me on any given day how i identify myself, i wouldn't tell you that, i'd probably say something like gamer instead actually.

not to say that im oblivious to occasions when someone will do something that will call attention to their gender or color... but i tend not to notice until then.

after which point unless i see a valid reason for them having focused attention on that portion of their identity (or if its the only portion of their identity they feel is valid), i get irritated.

---------- Post added 08-03-2012 at 12:01 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think the INTJ personality type is gender neutral by definition. "Gender" is typically determined by a society, rather than biology. Since INTJs don't understand societal traditions, most of us tend to be gender neutral (mentally). I'm an INTJ male, but I've never identified with either "gender" of society. I see myself as being a mix of both in my mind. Physiologically I'm male and attracted to women, but I don't see myself as male or female.

id agree that most INTJ's are probably gender neutral...

but i tend to disagree with gender being defined by society rather than biology. male and female bodies are physiologically different, which produces different levels of hormones and neural pathways (among other things), which in turn creates distinct differences, both physically and mentally, between men and women.

remember, there is a distinct difference between how you personally identify and what you physically are, anyone who's pre-op understands this. you just can't dismiss physical limitations and boundaries because we don't personally agree with them. endeavour to change them, sure, but while they are in effect, they must be acknowledged.

society simply takes those differences and amplifies them, it does not create them.

[setsume]

	Originally Posted by Ravendicon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The only thing that bothers me about this whole idea of genderqueer, is that it is being used as an extreme form of political correctness. If you feel like you don't fit a gender--fine; but let's not force our society into eliminating the concept of gender altogether.

This is the big problem I have with modern feminism. Let women who want to be feminine, be feminine, and let men who want to be masculine be masculine.

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[Midhiel]

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think the INTJ personality type is gender neutral by definition. "Gender" is typically determined by a society, rather than biology. Since INTJs don't understand societal traditions, most of us tend to be gender neutral (mentally).

Whoa, that seems like a very big leap to me.

I have no problem whatsoever with gender neutrality and, though it confuses me sometimes, it's something I find very interesting to learn about - but I'm definitely not gender neutral myself. I am unquestionably cis female.

I'm not a girl because society told me to be one. I'm a girl because I feel like a girl.
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[katatonic]

I'm female and identify as female but I don't identify as straight/gay/bi or anything else. I've only dated cis males, but if any other type of person came a long who I had chemistry with, their gender identity wouldn't matter.

I'm down with the entire spectrum of gender identity and sexual orientation.

[zo3gI]

I completely understand! im strangely attracted to people that you cant tell what gender they are. i've always been like this. inside my head i've always felt more masculine or neutral, once in a while i'll feel more feminine. i've almost never dressed and acted like one specific gender. its hard to explain. if anyone ever asks i just say i like confusing people...