[The Dan Keizer]

I was never much of a pickup artist. I didn't mind spending a long time getting to know a person before hanging out as friends.

And even when I finally took the shot at going home, I didn't use any lines. I was just there at closing time and asked if they would like to sleep at my place. (Which meant fuck then sleep.)

[NeverPhased]

Originally Posted by cizzo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Hey bro I'm gonna level with you. I studied PUA heavily, I even went on a bootcamp! Yeah I approached like 40 girls in one night once. I always knew deep down a lot of it is bullshit, and I'm sure a lot of your INTJ sensabilities tell you the same. Sure there are good points in there, I mean yeah, be confident, be funny etc etc. That's just shit everyone says. My journey right now is I rarely look at that stuff except Mark Manson and some RSD (just kinda fun to watch) and I make up my own mind on the ideas. I approach girls in clubs as I choose, sometimes I don't approach at all. I've gone on dates here and there. And you know what the PUA stuff probably hurt more than it helped. The one positive was that it was a catalyst for me to DO something finally. The healthier way is the cliche bullshit line of "be yourself!". The memorized lines are terrible IMO, they just can't work because they can in no way come from any kind of truth or real place within you. The idea that you can attract almost any girl is the biggest lie in PUA, even though a lot of the guys don't say that anymore. Women have a far much greater range of what they find attractive, so in essence yes you can improve yourself, work on your social skills but you will always be rejected. And now I realize that's good, it just isn't meant to be if she does reject you. I'm kind of going on and on now but a lot of what I think is what Mark Manson teaches. Start here - To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Thanks for the feedback it's good to hear a negative story about someone who's actually tried. I'll definitely look into the Mark Manson material.

After reading this
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journal of how someone is changing their life around using PUA techniques, I just don't see how I can loose more than I can gain by robbing a few methods and customizing them into my own approach. While his results are more PUA focused, I feel I could definitely take encouragement from how he has gained a comfortable presence around attractive women.

---------- Post added 06-20-2012 at 10:54 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Boreal To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I like how you're posting this in a forum where many of the female members pride themselves on A.) being perceptive enough to tell a flake at a mile, and B.) perfectly willing to bring the axe down.

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[Samoan Corleone]

Originally Posted by NeverPhased To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The funny thing is, this is exactly what PUA is about, you should read up on it more. As already said, it is a tool, to be used as one wishes. My aim is to become more in touch with who I am, to not crumble when I see a gorgeous girl and talk to her like I would any other girl. Just be confident in who I am. I can see why PUA is seen as a "desire to score/have sex" but if you look past this, a lot of the time, men who follow the strategy have simple long term goals to live a life where they have "come to grips with who [they] are, let go of [their] desire to score / the social pressure to be successful with women and just be?"

"Gaining self-confidence by any other name..." I guess. That's ultimately a good thing, whether it be for dating, your career, or any aspect of your life. Keep at it, I say.

[llBradll]

I've read some material. It's not recommended to follow the guidelines too much. Most of tactics will attract the wrong kind of women. It does have useful tidbits of information though, and it definitely has entertainment value.

[PurpleGiraffe]

	Originally Posted by IQ65 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Good old social constructivism:P

You know it.
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Originally Posted by NeverPhased To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well in order to become more comfortable talking to strangers and women I find attractive, I have no choice but to break out of the little shell I live in. I have always been more than happy to keep to myself and can go weeks without ever opening my mouth to a stranger. It is not in me to randomly have a chat with someone I don't know/just met on the street. But I want to overcome this and change. Anytime I do have an interesting random interaction I get a positive boost from it. I want to be able to approach anyone and have a healthy conversation if necessary or not. In reality I will always have withdrawn tendencies but I will have to force myself into talking to strangers one conversation at a time, until it becomes natural (or less nerve wracking) and something I hope I'll enjoy. In truth it is still me but I will be just forcing myself to do something I normally need 6 pints of beer to do To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I have a program for you to follow, OP. It's amazing! You should try it! It will help change your life.

You would do anything to change your life you say? You feel lost and trapped and like you are repeating the same cycles?

All right, well, for the low, low price of $19.95 I'll tell you all the secrets in my new e-book!

Now get out your wallet, and I'll tell you it all. You've got your card ready? Okay, good!

It's called GOOYCZ (Get Out Of Your Comfort Zone!)

You know that scary thing that you don't like getting out of because it feels safe? That nice thing? Also known as your house, your reality, the idea that you can control everything? Yeah, that thing. Now leave it! Go!

Follow the uncomfortable and you'll find your way!

*Laughs at pile of cash*
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Seriously, though, there isn't any secret. Any special path you can take. Life isn't a one-size-fits-all package of bullshit constructed by some people who *know it all.* Because people generally don't know shit, and the people who will tell you the most that they know the ways to do things often know it the least.

Being genuine is scary, but it's the only way to live unless you aren't looking for others to be genuine too. What PUA does is build you a new shell. Rather than clinging to your old routines, you are clinging to these ideas and this fake you, and that's fine, but then, one day you might wake up and realize that that's what it was - a new way of coping to a desire for change - and that you didn't like the empty shell you had to create.

I was scared of others for a long time too. I was so afraid of change and desperately wanted it at the same time, and it wasn't until I realized that I truly wasn't happy and that I was keeping a paradigm that I didn't even like, just for the sake of habit and comfort, that I changed. Sometimes, we clinge to our routines and patterns not because we enjoy them, but because they are what we know. So, realize that you don't know a whole lot, and you have a lot to learn and that you want to learn and get out there. You'll fall down occasionally and that's a good thing because when all of the cuts and bruises have healed you might be able to look back and realize that you opened up in ways you never imagined and you were able to do it as you.

[Distance]

Any woman dumb enough to fall for PUA, is 40 bricks short of a load. If you're looking for a bimbette or emotionally retarded woman, live it, learn it, love it.

[Zephyranthes]

Personally i'm still waiting for the "how to attract an emotionally stable, non-crazy, high self esteem woman" guide from someone around here, but most people around here just seem to repeat the nonsensical "be yourself" crap and throw rocks at anything else.

PUA itself is still basically crap. Negs and "high value" baloney something or other, making up dumb stories about how wildly successful you and other variously crazy ideas that they think "work". Read the pua lingo site thingy for about 5 minutes, giggle at the idiocy, and then keep looking for real substance in dating advice until you find something that clicks with you mentally, and that your intuition can agree with. It should be obvious that being an outright asshole does not create successful longterm relationships.

I personally spent a few months rummaging through PUA type advice trying to find answers, specifically through David DeAngelo's stuff, found it be confusing and not specific or detailed enough to actually provide answers, and moved through it along with most of the rest of "normal" PUA type advice, the stuff that thinks negs and randomly being an asshole are attractive to woman.

[The Dan Keizer]

	Originally Posted by Zephyranthes To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I personally spent a few months rummaging through PUA type advice trying to find answers, specifically through David DeAngelo's stuff, found it be confusing and not specific or detailed enough to actually provide answers, and moved through it along with most of the rest of "normal" PUA type advice, the stuff that thinks negs and randomly being an asshole are attractive to woman.

You were trying to find the answers to exactly what questions?

[Zephyranthes]

	Originally Posted by Dan Keizer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You were trying to find the answers to exactly what questions?

"What do women want?", why does a woman choose one man over another, and the 50 bazillion other odd questions that need to be addressed in order to be any sense of balance or "logic" to the idea of relationships. PUA answered just about zero of these, and most of them just continued to play off the "women are illogical, your success will be random luck. But here, buy my book for $59.99 and i'll tell you things that work occasionally even though women are still random crazy".

[Sk8ordude]

The principles behind PUA work on everybody, its observations of human nature, men women there really is little difference in their core nature.

PUA is applied social dynamics, there are few fields that cover it in such depth, with oh so much data. There is no force that man can wield more powerful then the ability to work a room, and there is no greater driving force to innovation then mans desire to get into some chicks pants.

It just so happens that like every field the focus of the masses is misguided in the pursuit of the crude. I dont let preconceptions get in the way of my explorations, and I dont define myself by any piece of knowledge. I've never paid a dime for anybody’s PUA book, I use youtube and forums.

[AlfredSchnittke]

What is the difference between "social skills" and "social manipulation"?

[KonTiki]

NeverPhased, thanks for starting this thread. And thanks for all the links that were suggested.

About 5 years ago one of my friends handed me a copy of The Game. He got really into it, developing routines and going out every night. I went as his wingman sometimes. It was uncomfortable, because I would have to lie. (Eg, I'd be the guy who got a drunken text from his girlfriend saying she loved him for the first time. "Ladies, what does that mean?") Still, I can't complain too much, because I ended up talking to tons of people, and it was really fun. As far as I know, he got lots of digits but never actually scored. Then, he met a woman not using game and now they are happily married. Who knows, maybe game gave him the confidence he needed.

As for me, I've read maybe a half-dozen books on social dynamics and such. I'm more aware of my appearance (eg, grooming, physique, body language, voice) and the importance of having good stories ready. But I gave up on being a PUA. Instead, I started taking dancing lessons and have found other ways to meet girls (eg, online, where my excellent writing skills shine through). Besides, my trouble has never been attracting women, it's keeping them.
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I guess what I'm saying is that I want to encourage you down the path to becoming a PUA. Get out there and meet some ladies! Just make sure to report back. With pictures, preferably!

[TyphoonBlizzard]

Originally Posted by KonTiki To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

NeverPhased, thanks for starting this thread. And thanks for all the links that were suggested. About 5 years ago one of my friends handed me a copy of The Game. He got really into it, developing routines and going out every night. I went as his wingman sometimes. It was uncomfortable, because I would have to lie. (Eg, I'd be the guy who got a drunken text from his girlfriend saying she loved him for the first time. "Ladies, what does that mean?") Still, I can't complain too much, because I ended up talking to tons of people, and it was really fun. As far as I know, he got lots of digits but never actually scored. Then, he met a woman not using game and now they are happily married. Who knows, maybe game gave him the confidence he needed. As for me, I've read maybe a half-dozen books on social dynamics and such. I'm more aware of my appearance (eg, grooming, physique, body language, voice) and the importance of having good stories ready. But I gave up on being a PUA. Instead, I started taking dancing lessons and have found other ways to meet girls (eg, online, where my excellent writing skills shine through). Besides, my trouble has never been attracting women, it's keeping them. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I guess what I'm saying is that I want to encourage you down the path to becoming a PUA. Get out there and meet some ladies! Just make sure to report back. With pictures, preferably!

I have the book right here, and I believe at the very end, the lesson was that the same that the computer learnt in WarGames, the only way to win is not to play at all. For a book about the PUA, and all the scoring that went on, yeah, you do end up scoring a lot, but you don't have that emotional attachment.

My personal view on it is that people can do whatever you want, you want to be yourself, or use what the PUA preaches, it is completely up to you. But for me personally, it's whether or not you want to be yourself, or a pretend self.

[sunitaishot]

Much of PUA is pseudo-psychology.

The Alpha Male concept is key though. Despite modern society decrying gender roles and bases, I think women naturally are geared towards the assured provider type. Anthropologists studying hunter-gatherers in Africa have shown that in such societies, males are chosen on their provision skills and ability to lead. it's something clearly ingrained, despite what modern PC society says.

---------- Post added 06-21-2012 at 08:41 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by AlfredSchnittke To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What is the difference between "social skills" and "social manipulation"?

Skills needed to get on with other human beings. hence social skills are key life skills.

[Nomatterwhat]

	Originally Posted by Zephyranthes To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Personally i'm still waiting for the "how to attract an emotionally stable, non-crazy, high self esteem woman" guide from someone around here, but most people around here just seem to repeat the nonsensical "be yourself" crap and throw rocks at anything else.

Be the man your ideal woman would want to be with... Its really not rocket science and becoming that man will serve more than ones penis.

If one is looking for ways to manipulate the described woman to trigger attraction instead of becoming the man she would want to be with he must expose himself to people, not only women, to people. And all those guides, books, bootcamps are there merely to create motivation to do so. Its just some smart people created a market out of this illusion.

Just go out there, talk to people, dont go after the pussy, get to know people, have fun, entertain them, teach them something, learn something from them.

And dont be yourself, never, you are your worst enemy, always progress, become the man who is better than you, admire that guy, envy that guy, become that guy and then hate him too in order to progress. Its just a smallest mindset you need to achieve it really, though i admit its not easy to install into your own head.

[sunitaishot]

I don't see how "be yourself" is crap.

Which woman would fall for a man based not on his attributes? The fact is there is no set type that can get a date. Popular culture presents an image, but there really is not a type. it depends largely on the values of the individual involved.

[Boreal]

	Originally Posted by sunitaishot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The Alpha Male concept is key though. Despite modern society decrying gender roles and bases, I think women naturally are geared towards the assured provider type. Anthropologists studying hunter-gatherers in Africa have shown that in such societies, males are chosen on their provision skills and ability to lead. it's something clearly ingrained, despite what modern PC society says.

I feel like it's not so much ingrained as it's still valid. The "assured provider type" forms the basis of what most people are looking for in a partner, especially if they want to start a family. Why wouldn't you want someone who's dependable and makes a good salary?

[sunitaishot]

	Originally Posted by Boreal To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I feel like it's not so much ingrained as it's still valid. The "assured provider type" forms the basis of what most people are looking for in a partner, especially if they want to start a family. Why wouldn't you want someone who's dependable and makes a good salary?

I think dating is subjective, in that we all have different criteria for such. But IMO it's too PC to say that traditional male qualities are not a factor. To me this is why most say confidence is key.