[KarmicKaos]

(huge) Edit:

I've decided to summarize my huge post into a couple concise questions. If you want to read the entire thing it's quoted below...

Why do INTJs struggle with relationships so much?

How can I let my Korea girlfriend know that I feel deeply for her but do not yet want to get married?

[blueback]

You seem to be in need of far more stimulation than the other INTJs I've talked to (and myself). Your post indicates you constantly move from one place to another, you seek out short term relationships, and you then agonize over your past.

Actually, that doesn't sound very INTJ to me. Did you have a screwed up childhood or something?

[DrEast]

You may not realize it, but you're asking dozens of questions here in the two questions you've asked, and that makes it a daunting task to answer them clearly. I'll give it a shot when I get off of work, though.

[Parallel]

Originally Posted by KarmicKaos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Oh man, where to start... Problem #1: Girlfriend - First off, I don't believe in love, I do however believe in a "high-level of mutual compability," which I think I have with my INFJ g/f (who doesn't want to talk to me). I think she's freakin' adorable, very intelligent (straight A's in classes that aren't even in her native tongue), and considerably more caring that I am. Despite my usual need to spend a tremendous amount of time by myself I think I could probably spend everyday which her and not be bothered - and I did - for about a month. But, apparently her mother is pushing her towards marriage and she seems to think that's a good option. She also wants babies, and soon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I've heard from some of my male Korean friends that she (as in all Korean girls) just wants to hear that I want to get married in order to feel comfortable. Something to do with Asian women not being very independent. Maybe there's someone who grew up in Asia that can reflect on that? However, I can't lie about that knowing I don't want to get married for at least a couple more years. We're both 23, and just started on our MBA's. I want to start a career before getting married, etc. I expressed my disinterest in staying in Korea long-term. I also love to travel and want to go live in South America or maybe Europe again. However, finding somebody who wants to do that too, and can actually do it, is nearly impossible I think. A couple months ago I was thinking I would never get married until I was like 30. Now I've changed my mind to maybe 25 because of the circumstances. She made a valid point saying that she didn't want to spend her time on someone who wasn't considering getting married. However, a few weeks before this she went and told all her friends that she might have found the one (I assume it was me To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ). Now she said she doesn't want to see me for awhile. She skipped class on Tuesday and apparently had a headache, riiiight. we have class again this Saturday and she says she's coming then. I think I'll just back off for a few days and let her think. I just don't know for sure where her brain is at. Two years ago her Father died from cancer. Her mother has been drifting in and out of depression for that past 2 years and is apparerntly struggling with that right now. I feel for her, I do, however, why is she listening to her mother when she's the way she is? My g/f says it's her dream to get married early and have babies but I think it's really her mother's dream. She said her mother always said she regretted not marrying earlier because all her friends had kids in college, and she had a kid in elemntary school. Whatever, that's a dumb reason as far as I'm concerned. Problem #2: I suck at relationships and may be a sexual deviant (not really) - But, I do suck at relationships in general. Many of the other INTJs on this forum may feel the same way? I also tend to look back at all the short relationships I've had (never lasting more than 4 months) quite often and feel I'm a huge failure in that category. Going back about 6 years, I'm 23, so since I was 17. Most of my relationships have ended because I'm moved somewhere else, but I don't think they would be much longer anyways. Maybe it's my Catholic guilt but I also sometimes regret having had sex with certain people. However, at least in one circumstance we were totally drunk off our rocker and I barely remember what happened. I don't know if I regret having had sex with her more or not knowing if I was any good, since large quantities of alcohol tend to have an effect on that sort of thing and she didn't want to see me again. I guess we can leave the question of whether I use women to another thread. However, it's not purpose, other guys say they never regret having slept with anybody. Is this simply boasting or am I the single male who's had a one night stand and regrets it? Basically, all relationships in my life have been far below expectations which is why it really sucks that it looks like this one is going to end because I feel good being around her (and she seems to enjoy being around me). Also, my longest "relationship" was with a woman 10 years older than me. It was purely sexual, it lasted intermittenly over about a year and a half. I think I seek out gratification through "hooking up" when I should have just stuck to my hand all along (that was funny). Although, honestly, I haven't had that many sexual partners. Maybe I'm being too hard on myself? I have plenty of acquaintances who at least claim to have had many more. Hopefully, anybody willing to read all that can give me some advice.

So as a Korean female, I'll try to give you some advice.

Problem #1: Females that grow up in Asia vs. females that grew up in western society have very different values so yeah, if she grew up in Korea it's most likely that her main goal in life is to get married and have children.

As for you questioning why she is listening to her mother even though she might seem not mentally sound right now, in Asian culture what your parents say is most important in guiding your decisions if you want to be the perfect daughter. Don't question it, just accept that it is the way it is.

Problem #2: I definitely understand what you mean when you say you suck in relationships in general. This is what I've told every boyfriend that I've ever had. As INTJ's it doesn't come as naturally to us as it does to other types to know how to accommodate a romantic partner into our lives since we need so much space and get bored real easily (maybe this is because of ADD). Our actions are usually seen as selfish, cold, and distant to our significant other when we don't even realize it or mean to be.

I think bottom line is, grow some bigger balls and make the decision to commit to her or stop wasting her time. Because if you do decide to commit to her, know that she will have high expectations of you as a fiance/husband as in Asian society, the bf/fiance/husband is usually the caretaker/head of the household/someone that needs to assume responsibility and really manage the well-being of your wife and future children.

[KarmicKaos]

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You seem to be in need of far more stimulation than the other INTJs I've talked to (and myself). Your post indicates you constantly move from one place to another, you seek out short term relationships, and you then agonize over your past. Actually, that doesn't sound very INTJ to me. Did you have a screwed up childhood or something?

Well, I take anti-depressents. My dad was an alcoholic but others have definitely had it worse.

	Originally Posted by DrEast To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You may not realize it, but you're asking dozens of questions here in the two questions you've asked, and that makes it a daunting task to answer them clearly. I'll give it a shot when I get off of work, though.

Apologies, I'm not feeling like my usual, logical, INTJ self lately.

	Originally Posted by Parallel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	grow some bigger balls

That might just be the solution, lol.

[blueback]

Maybe you could get prosthetic balls, fake it till you make it, LOL.

But seriously folks. . .

Keep in mind that when you invite someone into your life you can't tell them to leave their baggage at the door. Other types feel much more strongly that they owe loyalty to family members than INTJs do, so she is going to come as a package deal with her mother.

Other types are much better at self-deception than we are. If you commit to her she is going to assume that means you agree with her. Even if you carefully explain that there are some things you won't compromise on, she will nod her head and assume that you will compromise on them later. Women pretend to want to back a man up on anything he decides but once they get you committed to them they turn up the pressure to get their way. They figure, rightly so, that you will give in rather than abandon the relationship.

However, I have heard that in Asian cultures the wife is expected to do whatever her husband wants her to do. She wants to obey her mom, but once she's married to you she might switch to obeying you. I don't know her, but I suppose it's possible. I doubt an INTJ would marry a slave, though.

She is probably doing a "take away." It's when you completely withdraw from someone to give them a chance to miss you. If she comes back and doesn't have anything to show for being out of contact, like a decision or at least a better sense of what she wants, then she is probably just manipulating you.

Oh, if you marry her you will probably end up being expected to take her mom into your house when she can't care for herself anymore. That's another Asian culture thing, I think.

I guess it depends on what's more important to you. As an INTJ I completely understand the difficulty in finding a member of the opposite sex I can spend a lot of time around. However, I also understand the desire to keep my options open until a more optimal solution presents itself. It's a risk management problem. Do you commit to her and steel yourself to deal with whatever sub-optimal situations you find yourself in as a result, or do you avoid committing yourself to her and steel yourself to deal with whatever sub-optimal situations you find yourself in as a result? Does keeping her in your life have a higher expected value than keeping your options open?

[green eyes]

	Originally Posted by KarmicKaos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My g/f says it's her dream to get married early and have babies but I think it's really her mother's dream. She said her mother always said she regretted not marrying earlier because all her friends had kids in college, and she had a kid in elemntary school. Whatever, that's a dumb reason as far as I'm concerned.

I’m not Asian, but I am an INFJ. My dream was also to get married early and have babies.
We INFJs put a lot of importance on a “special”, deep, and romantic relationship. I’ve personally always felt like my main purpose in life was to love.

I don’t think INFJs live out other people’s dreams. We are too stubborn and driven by our own ideals. Sure, her mother may have helped her form those ideals, but they are still her own. I wouldn’t advise you to try and change that, ‘cause you’ll only be wasting a lot of time and energy. This is something that is very important to her, and she isn’t going to budge just because you think it’s a stupid idea.
Often we INFJs think our perceptions on important life matters are the “right” ones.

	She made a valid point saying that she didn't want to spend her time on someone who wasn't considering getting married. However, a few weeks before this she went and told all her friends that she might have found the one (I assume it was me To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ).

If you give her mixed signals about your feelings on the matter, she will most likely stay around, because she is obviously devoted to you (and she probably feels capable that her devotion can convince you)…but if you continually act adamant about not going in that direction anytime soon, you are likely going to lose her.

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you commit to her she is going to assume that means you agree with her.

There is a possibility that to her… “I’m committed to you.” and even “I care deeply about you and think we are highly compatible.” = “I want to marry you (even if my brain hasn’t realized/fully accepted it yet).” The more you try to tell her that you are very aware that you don’t want to marry her anytime soon, the more she may translate that into really meaning that you really don’t care that deeply for her and that the relationship is flawed/not good enough for you. It could be very hard for her to wrap her head around the idea that even though you do see yourself married someday, and even though you do care deeply for her and find the relationship highly compatible, that you don’t have the intent of marrying her anytime soon.

[blueback]

Tell her that the artificial sense of security she can gain by forcing her partner into a committed relationship is dwarfed by the size of the risks she is inviting. People change, people are uncertain, people make mistakes, a ring and a promise isn't going to change any of that.

Tell her that relationships between people are uniqe and individual things, they have to be formed based on the specific circumstances and the individuals involved. There is no such thing as a cookie-cutter relationship, there is only the illusion of one. If she wants to be with you she is going to have to comprimise her ideal relationship and you are going to have to compromise yours. That compromise is probably going to be the date you two get married. She probably thinks that the act of getting married is inherently "right" and you two will deal with any problems afterwards. You probably think that the act of taking the time to ensure the two of you are going to be together for a long time, before getting married, is "right" and you'd rather find all the problems before the ceremony.

Or don't. You could just let the relationship run its course and see what happens.

[onlyparallel]

[QUOTE=blueback;87819] There is no such thing as a cookie-cutter relationship, there is only the illusion of one. If she wants to be with you she is going to have to comprimise her ideal relationship and you are going to have to compromise yours. That compromise is probably going to be the date you two get married. She probably thinks that the act of getting married is inherently "right" and you two will deal with any problems afterwards. You probably think that the act of taking the time to ensure the two of you are going to be together for a long time, before getting married, is "right" and you'd rather find all the problems before the ceremony.

QUOTE]

I agree with you blueblack. I mean, if you're serious about this girl you want to make sure that you're on the same page as her in your relationship. She's going to need to realize that compromise is necessary for relationships to work. At the same time, you have to be sensitive and understanding about the cultural differences between the two of you. You have to reassure her that you understand her point of veiw while working out some kind of middle ground you can both agree to.

[Uytuun]

I've only read your long post that was quoted by parallel. It seems like you both have fundamentally different ideas of what you want out of life...there are only so many cultural differences a relationship can take, especially for an INTJ.

	A couple months ago I was thinking I would never get married until I was like 30. Now I've changed my mind to maybe 25 because of the circumstances.

This kind of stuff scares me.

That's not an answer to your questions, but perhaps it helps anyway.

[KarmicKaos]

Suprisingly good advice from green eyes, blueback, and parallel.

Uytuun, sorry to scare you, lol

Anyway, I'm going to see her tomorrow (Saturday) in class. I'm fully expecting her to sit on the other side of the room or something. So my expectations are low, but we'll see what happens...

[fonmaneal]

From what I have read, my thoughts are you are still looking for someone/somewhere else. If that is the case, you should " Stop fishing and cut bait."

End it quick and clean. Stop dragging it on!

[Motor Jax]

are most, if not all, INFJ relationships an enigma?


*settles back into his chair to absorb Sigmund Freud's The Interpretation of Dreams*