Swine Flu and Flu Shots - Immune System Issues

**Krazy P** · 10-30-2009, 07:40 AM

Just wanted to give a heads-up to people out there...

There is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that flu shots in general and swine flu shots in particular greatly increase the chance of very serious immune system reactions.

A colleague of mine was paralyzed for two weeks shortly after a shot last year. The first thing the immune specialists asked him was, "Did you have a flu shot recently?" When the answer was yes, they muttered and walked away. Naturally, he pressed them for more information. They won't say much except that there is a "startling" connection in their practices with these two events.

My daughter is in nursing school. She asked me if she should get the shot and I said no. She may be required to get the shot. A day or so ago the Clinical Director of the program (an MD) recommended against the shot. The reason: immune system issues. Apparently the swine flu vaccine is "worse than the average" flu shot for the incidence of provoking bad immune system reactions.

The basics are that after the flu shot your immune system gets "confused" and attacks the lining (sheath) of your nervous system resulting in rapid degradation that can lead to paralysis and death.

There have already been many cases of this reaction with the new vaccine.

So, it is a trade-off. If you are in a "high risk" group with poor health, and other problems with pulmonary issues - it might be worth it. A normal healthy person - I would not do it.

altoid · 10-30-2009, 09:18 AM

I never get flu shots simply because everyone I know who does then immediately gets the flu. I don't think I've heard this before though.

**iglookazoo** · 10-31-2009, 09:36 PM

Got a flu shot once when I was fourteen, per my mom's suggestion. Everyone in the family had a really bad reaction to it---> I had trouble breathing and thought my throat would close up. That, and everybody ended up getting the flu anyway. Ironic, considering that flu shots are supposed to help people like my parents (Mom = rheumatoid arthritis; Dad = type 2 diabetes).

I will say this: when I had the flu back in March, I threw up more than I ever did, didn't want to move at all, and thought I was going to die (I've been miserable, but not THAT miserable). That, and I had the "honor" of passing it to the rest of my family (with my brother throwing up more than I did). Was that H1N1? Although it wasn't "officially" recognized until April, I think it was around as early as March. Everyone I talked to that got sick over Spring Break told me they had NEVER been that sick, even with the flu.

Flu viruses mutate every season, and while the shot only protects you from what they THINK is going to be the main strain, you can end up catching the flu anyway from a different strain (or developing complications from the shots themselves). Not all vaccines are created equal, and should mercury really be in ANY vaccine? They're always talking about how bad it is for us...

Never again, even if it is for "man-bird-pig". I'll stick to hygiene, proper diet/exercise and staying away from sick people, and having the courtesy/common sense to stay home when I get sick.

**Silverity** · 10-31-2009, 09:43 PM

There are numerous types of vaccines: "inactivated (modified live virus that don't cause disease), broken up (virus broken up), boiled/dead (killed virus), protein (a couple proteins that make up the virus are made using eggs - no virus is used in the process)"

I stole that from a BSc major in my faculty, for the record, she knows more about it than I do.

So my question is, any idea which type you took? Might've had something to do with it.

**S3raphymn** · 11-03-2009, 11:21 PM

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't H1N1 kill mechanism stem in part from a cytokine storm, which (in my limited medical knowledge) is akin to having a gigantic autoimmune green light to burn through your entire system with IgG antibodies?

If that's so, then taking flu vaccines, even with an 'inactivated' form, might still have the potential to trigger a cytokine storm and cause all sorts of bad things to happen. I remember a professor telling me about six months ago that it was because H1N1 triggers cytokine storms that it affects people the flu won't normally affect; teens, young adults, and other people with healthy immune systems.

Scary stuff.

**Nameless** · 11-04-2009, 12:05 AM

I don't trust shots in general. Probably because I'm needlephobic, but there must be other ways than sticking needles in us. I've had bad reactions with them that I would trade for hoping I get lucky instead and I don't think injecting viruses into myself is really safe. Why can't our immune system just work like it's supposed? /idealist

As corny as it sounds, when I truly believe I'm not getting sick, it doesn't happen! I think that has to do with the mind-body connection though or oranges, because they are truly miracle foods lol. Every time I eat an orange for example, I feel really freshed and like clean inside.

**Webbster** · 11-04-2009, 12:29 AM

I get my flu shots every year. The Canadian health system has saved my life a couple times, so they have earned my trust. I also research treatments ahead of time to see which implementation is preferable. I don't particularly trust anecdotes because people often psych themselves out when it comes to medicals treatments, if the placebo effect can be positive, I can't see why it can't be negative. And, if I do end up dying as a result of a botched vaccine, at least it can help lead to the further refinement of future vaccines.

nacht · 11-04-2009, 02:25 AM

To much fear, not enough facts in this thread.

	Originally Posted by Krazy P To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Just wanted to give a heads-up to people out there... There is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that flu shots in general and swine flu shots in particular greatly increase the chance of very serious immune system reactions.

[citation needed]

"Circumstantial evidence" is just about useless in this case, especially when we have a long history of research that indicates the exact opposite.

No vaccine is 100% safe for everyone, the question is "are the complications better or worse than those of the flu, given the odds of getting the flu." For this the odd report of complications are (entirely) worthless, and you will want something more concrete than something that happened to a fried or that you heard on the news.

There is some thought that there might be a 1-2 out-of-a-million chance of getting Guillain–Barré Syndrome from (any) flu vaccination, but this is:

a) Not A(H1N1) specific
b) Not worse than getting the disease (where the problem rate appears to be on the order of a tenth to a third of a percent).
c) Not confirmed despite the number of people who get the vaccine
d) Not news.


	A colleague of mine was paralyzed for two weeks shortly after a shot last year. The first thing the immune specialists asked him was, "Did you have a flu shot recently?" When the answer was yes, they muttered and walked away. Naturally, he pressed them for more information. They won't say much except that there is a "startling" connection in their practices with these two events.

There's nothing "startling" about it. There is a paralytic condition that has may or may not be linked to seasonal flu vaccinations (again, at a rate of about 1-2 out of a million if it exists at all, it may simply trigger it or there may be a coincidental appearance that gets noticed more often) that has an incident rate already of 10-20 out of every million people.


	My daughter is in nursing school. She asked me if she should get the shot and I said no.

If your daughter is in nursing school, she should be properly educated in the risks involved. Which include that the probability of getting the flu * probability of severe complications is probably greater than the problem of side effects if you get the shot.


	She may be required to get the shot. A day or so ago the Clinical Director of the program (an MD) recommended against the shot. The reason: immune system issues. Apparently the swine flu vaccine is "worse than the average" flu shot for the incidence of provoking bad immune system reactions.

A citation is, again, needed here. A random reference to an anonymous clinical director who is an MD (and not a researcher, I'll note) without an actual report, study, preliminary finding, or even a name is useless to everyone.


	The basics are that after the flu shot your immune system gets "confused" and attacks the lining (sheath) of your nervous system resulting in rapid degradation that can lead to paralysis and death.

This is a claim about an autoimmune disorder that has been circulating but, to date, there is no evidence for. The claims generally center around a belief that there is squalene in the vaccines and that squalene is responsible for Gulf War Syndrome, however:

a) There is no squalene in the vaccine.
b) Squalene has been used in over 22 million doses of vaccines in europe without evidence of a problem.

Now, again, [citation needed]. Your note is particularly in need of such citations, because it fails to provide adequate information for readers to do any checking whatsoever, and doesn't even include claims such as "the squalene is causing it" or "it is causing GBS," instead we just see vague fearmongering about paralytic autoimmune diseases. Use the names so that people can actually loop up the information, and use citations where available to make your point.


	There have already been many cases of this reaction with the new vaccine.

Prove it. If there have "been many cases" then it should be relatively easy to demonstrate. You can start with
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which is limited (as a self-reporting system) but should be more than adequate for at least building a "circumstantial" case against this vaccine.

A quick search on my own found:

Life threatening: 7
Hospitalized: 12
Emergency Room: 204
Death: 3

There are also some minor incidents, which are expected.

Looking at the flu from other years, and looking at other vaccines, I'm not seeing above average rates of incidents in that. If it were a particularly serious situation, it is likely it would show up here. Especially given the number of doses already administered. But, unless I am dramatically misreading the numbers, the situation isn't nearly as dire as you seem to be trying to indicate. In fact, it doesn't seem out-of-norm in any way.

Citations:

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**Elena** · 11-04-2009, 10:12 AM

mmh..
Today about 4 I got a phone call from the hospital to get my "Normal flu" and swine flu jabs the same day.
I said I would get them, but im not so sure anymore.
I have an unexplained (for the moment) heart condition so I thought it would be best to get it.
Should I?

**Silverity** · 11-04-2009, 10:32 AM

	Originally Posted by Elena To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	mmh.. Today about 4 I got a phone call from the hospital to get my "Normal flu" and swine flu jabs the same day. I said I would get them, but im not so sure anymore. I have an unexplained (for the moment) heart condition so I thought it would be best to get it. Should I?

I am. After having the flu I will tell you that it is exhausting, your energy just gets sucked out of you. Now, this is my biased opinion: but if I were you I'd get it because if you have a heart condition why risk making your body labour harder while it tries to heal up through the flu? I have an auto-immune disease and know my immune system is messed so I want to make its job easier by not getting sick.

Plus, really, H1N1 is seven days of aches, coughs, fevered dreams and isolation. Ew. Even for an introvert like me: Ew.

**DewFuel** · 11-04-2009, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Krazy P
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Just wanted to give a heads-up to people out there...

There is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that flu shots in general and swine flu shots in particular greatly increase the chance of very serious immune system reactions.

A colleague of mine was paralyzed for two weeks shortly after a shot last year. The first thing the immune specialists asked him was, "Did you have a flu shot recently?" When the answer was yes, they muttered and walked away. Naturally, he pressed them for more information. They won't say much except that there is a "startling" connection in their practices with these two events.

So a highly virulent and mutagenic strain of the 1918 spanish flu type (H1N1) that killed about 3% of the world population doesn't scare you as much as 2 weeks of paralysis?
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	The basics are that after the flu shot your immune system gets "confused" and attacks the lining (sheath) of your nervous system resulting in rapid degradation that can lead to paralysis and death.

wat. i haven't heard any credible study report on that.

**Mader** · 11-04-2009, 11:24 AM

In 1918 we did not have the antibiotics that we have today.

I suspect that the fear of the flu shots this year is really a general lack of trust in the government in many areas. Also, a rejection of too much government in our lives, we are becoming uncomfortable with so much government.

nacht · 11-04-2009, 12:59 PM

	Originally Posted by Mader To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In 1918 we did not have the antibiotics that we have today.

Antibiotics only save if you if you catch a secondary bacterial infection, and not even then. I know a woman who died to A(H1N1) who was otherwise apparently healthy, and I was laid flat by it for a week with several additional weeks of recovery. The consequences of getting this disease are serious, even with modern medicine.

On top of this, all indicators are that
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.


	I suspect that the fear of the flu shots this year is really a general lack of trust in the government in many areas. Also, a rejection of too much government in our lives, we are becoming uncomfortable with so much government.

The "flu shot" is not any different than it has been for the last 30 years and it is still provided through the same channels it always has been, and is produced by the same companies. There are a few new products on the market (e.g., flunase), but that's the basics of it.

There is paranoia this year that is being stirred up by right wing commentators (e.g.,
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), but that's not because people "are becoming uncomfortable with so much government," that's because of lies, misinformation, and distortions designed to make you afraid. It is all manufactured angst.

This goes double when one considers that the thing is entirely optional except for people in very specific circumstances, and even largely for them.

---------- Post added 11-04-2009 at 02:00 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Elena To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	mmh.. Today about 4 I got a phone call from the hospital to get my "Normal flu" and swine flu jabs the same day. I said I would get them, but im not so sure anymore. I have an unexplained (for the moment) heart condition so I thought it would be best to get it. Should I?

Talk to your doctor, but my guess is the answer is going to be "yes, absolutely." The stress on your heart from the vaccine is going to be less than the stress of getting the flu.

**haCkmYsTyLe** · 11-05-2009, 12:39 AM

I don't remember getting sick... other than one time when I was on a rushed vacation.
I did take a few shots a few years back. Didn't like the results so I stopped taking them since. I haven't gotten sick or anything without the shots. So I don't really see why I should be getting the flu shots at all.

**Elena** · 11-05-2009, 08:48 AM

	Originally Posted by nacht To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Talk to your doctor, but my guess is the answer is going to be "yes, absolutely." The stress on your heart from the vaccine is going to be less than the stress of getting the flu.

I guess your correct,and I will discuss it with my normal Doctor. Tomorrow im going to unrelated apppointment with my heart doctor, so I will ask for his oppinion aswell. Thanks for your help.

	Originally Posted by haCkmYsTyLe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't remember getting sick... other than one time when I was on a rushed vacation. I did take a few shots a few years back. Didn't like the results so I stopped taking them since. I haven't gotten sick or anything without the shots. So I don't really see why I should be getting the flu shots at all.

Maybe the 1st jab you got helpped you be immune to the flu, but I dont know much about that sort of thing.

**Murky Muse** · 11-05-2009, 12:55 PM

Personally I think the flu isn't as big of a deal as it's made out to be. But then again I've never had it, nor have I had any flu shots. Strep-throat, on the other hand, honestly scares me; the last time I had it I nearly had to go to the ER.

**Architectonic** · 11-10-2009, 06:38 AM

You guys might be interested in these posts:

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**Delarge** · 11-11-2009, 10:58 AM

You're referring to the potential for molecular mimicry resulting in Lou Gehrig's Disease. The probability of such an event occurring is minimal, though I should add that both the vaccine and the A/H1N1 virus have the ability to induce such a condition.

If you're at serious risk for exposure and complications, I'd recommend undergoing inoculation.

**brdmadgrl82** · 11-11-2009, 05:00 PM

I probably had the swine flu...was sick with flu like symtoms once prior to flu season and again a couple of weeks ago. My employer was exposed to it, and had two people at school with confirmed swine flu. If you have a strong immune system I wouldn't worry about getting the shot. My husband decided to get the shot anyway (his choice). It's interesting to read about the possible side effects of the vaccine. This reminds me when I had some vaccines done (since I volunteer in clinic and had to) I suffered the worst headache for three weeks after the fact. Interesting how our bodies react.....

10-30-2009, 07:40 AM	#1
Krazy P Member [17%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 703	Just wanted to give a heads-up to people out there... There is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that flu shots in general and swine flu shots in particular greatly increase the chance of very serious immune system reactions. A colleague of mine was paralyzed for two weeks shortly after a shot last year. The first thing the immune specialists asked him was, "Did you have a flu shot recently?" When the answer was yes, they muttered and walked away. Naturally, he pressed them for more information. They won't say much except that there is a "startling" connection in their practices with these two events. My daughter is in nursing school. She asked me if she should get the shot and I said no. She may be required to get the shot. A day or so ago the Clinical Director of the program (an MD) recommended against the shot. The reason: immune system issues. Apparently the swine flu vaccine is "worse than the average" flu shot for the incidence of provoking bad immune system reactions. The basics are that after the flu shot your immune system gets "confused" and attacks the lining (sheath) of your nervous system resulting in rapid degradation that can lead to paralysis and death. There have already been many cases of this reaction with the new vaccine. So, it is a trade-off. If you are in a "high risk" group with poor health, and other problems with pulmonary issues - it might be worth it. A normal healthy person - I would not do it.
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10-30-2009, 09:18 AM	#2
altoid Core Member [103%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,129	I never get flu shots simply because everyone I know who does then immediately gets the flu. I don't think I've heard this before though.
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10-31-2009, 09:36 PM	#3
iglookazoo Member [02%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 104	Got a flu shot once when I was fourteen, per my mom's suggestion. Everyone in the family had a really bad reaction to it---> I had trouble breathing and thought my throat would close up. That, and everybody ended up getting the flu anyway. Ironic, considering that flu shots are supposed to help people like my parents (Mom = rheumatoid arthritis; Dad = type 2 diabetes). I will say this: when I had the flu back in March, I threw up more than I ever did, didn't want to move at all, and thought I was going to die (I've been miserable, but not THAT miserable). That, and I had the "honor" of passing it to the rest of my family (with my brother throwing up more than I did). Was that H1N1? Although it wasn't "officially" recognized until April, I think it was around as early as March. Everyone I talked to that got sick over Spring Break told me they had NEVER been that sick, even with the flu. Flu viruses mutate every season, and while the shot only protects you from what they THINK is going to be the main strain, you can end up catching the flu anyway from a different strain (or developing complications from the shots themselves). Not all vaccines are created equal, and should mercury really be in ANY vaccine? They're always talking about how bad it is for us... Never again, even if it is for "man-bird-pig". I'll stick to hygiene, proper diet/exercise and staying away from sick people, and having the courtesy/common sense to stay home when I get sick.
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10-31-2009, 09:43 PM	#4
Silverity Core Member [275%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,003	There are numerous types of vaccines: "inactivated (modified live virus that don't cause disease), broken up (virus broken up), boiled/dead (killed virus), protein (a couple proteins that make up the virus are made using eggs - no virus is used in the process)" I stole that from a BSc major in my faculty, for the record, she knows more about it than I do. So my question is, any idea which type you took? Might've had something to do with it.
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11-03-2009, 11:21 PM	#5
S3raphymn Member [06%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 273	So, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't H1N1 kill mechanism stem in part from a cytokine storm, which (in my limited medical knowledge) is akin to having a gigantic autoimmune green light to burn through your entire system with IgG antibodies? If that's so, then taking flu vaccines, even with an 'inactivated' form, might still have the potential to trigger a cytokine storm and cause all sorts of bad things to happen. I remember a professor telling me about six months ago that it was because H1N1 triggers cytokine storms that it affects people the flu won't normally affect; teens, young adults, and other people with healthy immune systems. Scary stuff.
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11-04-2009, 12:05 AM	#6
Nameless Member [09%] MBTI: INXP Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 389	I don't trust shots in general. Probably because I'm needlephobic, but there must be other ways than sticking needles in us. I've had bad reactions with them that I would trade for hoping I get lucky instead and I don't think injecting viruses into myself is really safe. Why can't our immune system just work like it's supposed? /idealist As corny as it sounds, when I truly believe I'm not getting sick, it doesn't happen! I think that has to do with the mind-body connection though or oranges, because they are truly miracle foods lol. Every time I eat an orange for example, I feel really freshed and like clean inside.
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11-04-2009, 12:29 AM	#7
Webbster Member [07%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 298	I get my flu shots every year. The Canadian health system has saved my life a couple times, so they have earned my trust. I also research treatments ahead of time to see which implementation is preferable. I don't particularly trust anecdotes because people often psych themselves out when it comes to medicals treatments, if the placebo effect can be positive, I can't see why it can't be negative. And, if I do end up dying as a result of a botched vaccine, at least it can help lead to the further refinement of future vaccines.
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11-04-2009, 10:12 AM	#9
Elena Core Member [140%] MBTI: INTX Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 5,631	mmh.. Today about 4 I got a phone call from the hospital to get my "Normal flu" and swine flu jabs the same day. I said I would get them, but im not so sure anymore. I have an unexplained (for the moment) heart condition so I thought it would be best to get it. Should I?
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11-04-2009, 11:24 AM	#12
Mader Member [36%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,475	In 1918 we did not have the antibiotics that we have today. I suspect that the fear of the flu shots this year is really a general lack of trust in the government in many areas. Also, a rejection of too much government in our lives, we are becoming uncomfortable with so much government.
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11-05-2009, 12:39 AM	#14
haCkmYsTyLe New Member [01%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 19	I don't remember getting sick... other than one time when I was on a rushed vacation. I did take a few shots a few years back. Didn't like the results so I stopped taking them since. I haven't gotten sick or anything without the shots. So I don't really see why I should be getting the flu shots at all.
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11-05-2009, 12:55 PM	#16
Murky Muse Member [02%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 102	Personally I think the flu isn't as big of a deal as it's made out to be. But then again I've never had it, nor have I had any flu shots. Strep-throat, on the other hand, honestly scares me; the last time I had it I nearly had to go to the ER.
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11-10-2009, 06:38 AM	#17
Architectonic Member [08%] MBTI: xxxx Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 357	You guys might be interested in these posts: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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11-11-2009, 10:58 AM	#18
Delarge Member [09%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 380	You're referring to the potential for molecular mimicry resulting in Lou Gehrig's Disease. The probability of such an event occurring is minimal, though I should add that both the vaccine and the A/H1N1 virus have the ability to induce such a condition. If you're at serious risk for exposure and complications, I'd recommend undergoing inoculation.
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11-11-2009, 05:00 PM	#19
brdmadgrl82 Member [12%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 512	I probably had the swine flu...was sick with flu like symtoms once prior to flu season and again a couple of weeks ago. My employer was exposed to it, and had two people at school with confirmed swine flu. If you have a strong immune system I wouldn't worry about getting the shot. My husband decided to get the shot anyway (his choice). It's interesting to read about the possible side effects of the vaccine. This reminds me when I had some vaccines done (since I volunteer in clinic and had to) I suffered the worst headache for three weeks after the fact. Interesting how our bodies react.....
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