[RBM]

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Las Vegas Review-Journal

Originally Posted by LVR

On May 26 the Review-Journal published an article about an ongoing federal tax evasion trial. The primary defendant, Las Vegan Robert Kahre, stands accused of tax fraud for using the rather inventive argument that he could pay people in U.S. minted gold and silver coins based on their precious metal value but for tax purposes use their face value, which is many times less. The story was posted on our Web site. When last I checked nearly 100 comments were appended to it, running the gamut from the lucid to the ludicrous. This past week the newspaper was served with a grand jury subpoena from the U.S. attorney's office demanding that we turn over all records pertaining to those postings, including "full name, date of birth, physical address, gender, ZIP code, password prompts, security questions, telephone numbers and other identifiers ... the IP address," et (kitchen sink) cetera.

...

	Originally Posted by LVR
	There was no indication what they were looking for or what crime, if any, was being investigated, just a blanket subpoena for voluminous and detailed records on every private citizen who dared to speak about a federal tax case. Sure, some of the comments were a bit rough, but criminal?

...

	Originally Posted by LVR
	To add prior restraint to the chilling effect of the sweeping subpoena, we were warned: "You have no obligation of secrecy concerning this subpoena; however, any such disclosure could obstruct and impede an ongoing criminal investigation. ..."

Yup, I'd call that pretty chilling, alright !

[paleoeco]

I had a prof in college who used to work for the LVR. If the same group of guys are "in charge" there as was back then, I have a feeling the LVR will fight it.

This is a clear violation of free speech, and quite frankly, I'd suspect they were claiming authority for the subpoena from the Patriot Act. UGH!

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by paleoeco To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I had a prof in college who used to work for the LVR. If the same group of guys are "in charge" there as was back then, I have a feeling the LVR will fight it. This is a clear violation of free speech, and quite frankly, I'd suspect they were claiming authority for the subpoena from the Patriot Act. UGH!

	Originally Posted by LVR
	Bottom line: We could fight the federal subpoena, at considerable expense, and lose. Our attorneys are now trying to see if we can limit the scope of the information sought.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a very calculated move on the Feds part rather than the legality aspects.

[SShack]

This happened to me less than a month after my newspaper site started allowing comments.

Believe me, it'll be quashed, particularly since most comment software doesn't even give the newspaper access to this information.

Edit: Correction, something like this happened to me, but not as expansive. They sheriff's department wanted information about somebody who posted a comment a recipient believed to be threatening. We didn't have any information they couldn't get off the site themselves. So we just printed out all the comments and brought them in to court and they were satisfied.

[Pandemonium]

They are pissed because people know that the fractional reserve system is ridiculous?

[reb]

the feds are extremely protective of the 'monetary system'. any 'alternatives' are pursued like a dog on an injured rabbit. i wish i could remember the fella's name-somewhere in the upper midwest-who tried to use his own currency in a local thing....the irs took him down. hard.

i read an article on barter sites today; i'm wondering how long before they subpoena names that have passed through or used those sites. the net giveth, and the net taketh away.....

[Pandemonium]

From what I understand there is no law in the United States stating you must pay federal income tax but on the other hand they knock down your front door as an incentive to pay.

[Sulurith]

	Originally Posted by Pandemonium To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	From what I understand there is no law in the United States stating you must pay federal income tax but on the other hand they knock down your front door as an incentive to pay.

I've heard this as well, but I'm very confused by it.
There is no legal recourse the government should have if one does not break a law by not paying the income tax.

I will need clarification on tax law I think, but in the US that tends to be an oxymoron.

[SShack]

Well, I gave the incident some publicity on the libertarian blog I participate in, not that it will likely make much of a difference.

[JohnDoe]

	Originally Posted by Pandemonium To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	From what I understand there is no law in the United States stating you must pay federal income tax but on the other hand they knock down your front door as an incentive to pay.

This is a myth.

[Brion]

The Subpoena is invalid probably and the correct legal response is to make a motion to quash the Subpoena... the website operator can ask an atty to draft the motion.

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Las Vegas Review-Journal ... ... Yup, I'd call that pretty chilling, alright !

Brion added to this post, 8 minutes and 24 seconds later...

Well in law school actually took a course entitled federal personal income tax... Of course studying the tx law is like reading stero instructions... They define terms with the term itself.. no kidding.. Under the defintion of income (by memory) it says something like.. Income is income earned (...) ect.

Anyway, it is a "myth" 98% mostly... All the people that challenge it in tax court have lost... some famous names such as Wesley Snipes even.

Thy Myth part comes from the fact (also by memory) a google serach can provide better analysis but the US Constitution has Article 8, which among other things is the taxing and spending clause of the government... it essentially does establish the right to have the government tax and spend but ties it vaguley to some state rights and apportionment according to population... some have argued that it applies only for the federal government to tax the states and not individuals... it is a spurious argument at best and there are many decisions refuting such claims.

The basic principle is simple.. without the federal governement having the authority to tax, the federal government would not exist.

	Originally Posted by Sulurith To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've heard this as well, but I'm very confused by it. There is no legal recourse the government should have if one does not break a law by not paying the income tax. I will need clarification on tax law I think, but in the US that tends to be an oxymoron.

Brion added to this post, 11 minutes and 57 seconds later...

Article 1 section 8 US Constitution

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.





Brion added to this post, 22 minutes and 10 seconds later...

The 16th Ammendment to the US constitution also allows the federal income tax

[Pandemonium]

	Originally Posted by JohnDoe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This is a myth.

Sorry dude I can't post any information to rebuttal...all too libertarian for you. It was quite hard to even convince you of the truth that the US federal reserve is privately owned by a consortium of banks. What do you call someone that refutes the factual truth?

Since your in the US you can always ask your local tax office to clarify the issue, I suppose.

[INTJRyan]

	Originally Posted by Brion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	it essentially does establish the right to have the government tax and spend but ties it vaguley to some state rights and apportionment according to population... The 16th Ammendment to the US constitution also allows the federal income tax

No. The right is derived solely from Art I section 8. The 16th removes the apportionment requirement.

[Night Runner]

The most common excuse I've heard for not paying the income tax was
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: Evidently, there were a few bugs and glitches during the ratification of the 16th Amendment, and therefore the IRS doesn't have any authority whatsoever. It's an old Libertarian argument, and it seems valid enough (at least at first glance) but it never held up in the court of law (because that would set a precedent and that would be bad)...

[ClydeB]

Regarding the private money. You can have private currencies in the United States. The only caveat being no coins. It has to be paper based. The laws are varied, but that seems to be the enforced intention of the federal government.

Coin based money information

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[LaoTzu]

I think of things like these as 'test' cases... Testing to see how passive the public has become. There should be a great outcry for BS tactics like this...


Hell, even the threat that names will be taken is a violation of freedom; and could lead some people to be silent on this or any number of issues.

[Visum]

Current situation regarding taxes. The link is full of youtube videos, so take it for what it is worth.

Ed and Elaine Brown Trial Starts in New Hampshire

Edward Lewis Brown and his wife, Elaine Alice Brown, residents of New Hampshire, gained national news media attention in early 2007 for not paying the U.S. federal income tax and refusing to surrender to federal government agents after having been convicted of tax crimes.


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[Mader]

No federal taxes.

Tell that to Al Capone.