[plotthickens]

It's passive-aggressive and reeks of butthurt. "Friendzone" is used in place of "won't let me fuck her, what a bitch" where men/boys feel entitled to sex. Proof: it is never used by those who would not want to fuck her.

To those who use it: you're not entitled to sex with any/every woman. Get over it, get over her, and move the fuck on.

[Versipellis]

Originally Posted by katatonic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You may be right about just needing space. But I wouldn't be able to remain friends with them until I had moved on 100%. That would be causing myself unneeded emotional stress. For me it's a little different because once I show interests in someone it's very hard to turn off. So the only logical thing for me to do is to cut them out of my life. That's the only way that I can turn off those feelings. I've never had a friendship with someone and then developed feelings for them so I can't speak to that. In my situation it started out with the intentions of being more than friends but I guess his feelings dwindled while mine did not, yet he still wanted to be friends. Wanting a relationship with someone is a lot more complex than just wanting to have sex with someone. I think the part that's hard to stomach is the emotional part rather than the sexual part. At least that's what it would be for me.

I was referencing sex as one example of something that a friendship typically does not have but a relationship does. Perhaps I should have made the distinction differently. In a relationship, you need to be able to accept everything about the person. If there's something that just doesn't mesh well between the two, then a full blown relationship isn't ideal. Sex is one of those things. A friendship, however, can still thrive without the full puzzle fitting well. That was what I was trying to go for. I find it a massive insult that someone thinks they can achieve a full match, then opt for nothing since they can't get the things a relationship has that a friendship doesn't.

Though, if you want to argue the point, you could say that sex is something you can get outside of a relationship. This is certainly true. I suspect the only trait of a relationship you can't achieve fully in a friendship is the closeness that comes out of it.

[UltraIncredible]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's passive-aggressive and reeks of butthurt. "Friendzone" is used in place of "won't let me fuck her, what a bitch" where men/boys feel entitled to sex. Proof: it is never used by those who would not want to fuck her. To those who use it: you're not entitled to sex with any/every woman. Get over it, get over her, and move the fuck on.

Wanting sex with somebody isn't the same thing as feeling entitled to it. Some guys think they're entitled, sure. Other guys just have their expectations disappointed. Of course someone who doesn't want sex with somebody isn't going to describe themselves as in the friend zone, because from their perspective they're not on a lower level than they want to be at.

The flipside is when a woman wants to have a serious relationship with a guy and he just wants casual, no-strings-attached sex. Also known as the friends-with-benefits zone.

[kingfish]

I am still utterly confused by 'Friend Zone'.

It seems to be a lack of maturity from all of the scenarios I have read to try and explain it. Friends. More than friends. So what? Personally if I was interested in someone enough to be 'more than friends' then that would be because they got through the 'worthy enough to be a friend' filter first. And I'm pretty picky so wouldn't be dismissing them because they didn't want sex with me. Sex isn't that hard to come by. People who make it through the 'worthy' filter are. I guess I am mature enough to not get my knickers in a knot over them not finding me sexually attractive.

Seriously, I stopped needing people to declare whether we were friends when I was about six. Then you met someone and you asked. Once you mature a bit beyond that you just see how things work out. You just KNOW. Same as when you mature beyond that into the realm of platonic/sexual friendships. You just let them develop and you know. I have never had to ask anyone and have never been asked. It's just obvious. Have I rebuffed male friends' advances. Sure. Has it altered our friendships? (Thinking...) No, not even in a single case. I have been rejected also and it altered nothing between the two of us either. And I've gone from friends to lovers and the other way and maintained the integrity of the friendships.

For me though there is very little difference between platonic friendships and sexual ones aside from the sex. I would give and expect pretty much the same things in either...other than sex.

The Friend Zone is in people's heads. I suspect it is something people grow out of.

[Vaiz]

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:

Edit**

I'm sorry I should add something other than that this is an entertaining thread lol. The fact is the most efficient way to describe this is the ladder theory and its extremely accurate.

There are two ladders. One is romantic and the other is non-romantic relationships. The average person (when meeting another) decides which ladder that other person will be climbing within 5-ish minutes.

Here is where things get tricky. If you begin climbing the romantic ladder, you can be moved to the friendship ladder with the flick of a wrist. However if you wish to change from the non-romantic to the romantic ladder, good luck. It is not impossible however social patterns need to be changed often between the two individuals as well as any groups they are immediately involved with.

Please keep in mind I am an ENFP so important details escape me
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I may have explained something incorrectly and I do apologize for that.

"Friendzoning" is the process of being moved from the romantic ladder to the non-friend ladder. This happens for various reasons. The people denying this exists probably are not familiar with an extreme amount of social situations or prefer to call it by other names. It is a cute name and if that bothers you reference the ladder theory instead; I think it does its job of taking the bite and embarrassment out of an awkward situation for someone.

Perfect example, friend A of mine was going after another friend of mine, friend B. A was in for the long haul, he won some serious brownie points all night long. It was definitely in the bag, romantic touches from her, she secluded him from the group (always means you are winning), then he did something very stupid and out of character. He made a comment about B's friend being overweight and she shut him down completely. Without a doubt he got permanently friendzoned after that night, and rightfully so. Now we could have said that he was moved from a romantic interest to a non-romantic interest, or that she lost interest in him. Any of the descriptions are accurate, but only one leaves a smile on your face because of how ridiculous it is.

Final edit: It appears I was too slow on that last edit
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[Coralaisly]

The OP doesn't allow for Nancy or Stacy... or Jack, for that matter (Who, quite frankly, is painted as a dopey victim in every scenario) to simply not be interested in the other party sexually and / or romantically, and want to just hang out socially as friends because the other person is just a cool guy / girl and he / she enjoys their company.

All four scenarios can happen, and do happen, but they're by no means all-inclusive.

The Friend-Zone is different for each person, and, news-flash! It's not a friendship death sentence, nor is it an insult!!

For me, it's "I like you as a person, I think you're cool and fun to be around, but I really don't want to sleep with you. I'm just not attracted to you that way." It really is just that simple. No need for anyone's jimmies to get all rustled, it's really just that I see them as friends. Is it really so bad to be friends with a (wo)man? When did friendship become toxic?! I happen to LIKE friendship!

After some digging is done, I find that this type of sentiment is usually the result of some sort of rejection where the pursuer fails to recognize that the object of their affection is human and probably doesn't have a lot of control over who (s)he's attracted to. Not being attracted to someone sexually / romantically doesn't mean you think less of them as a person, only that you think of them in a different capacity. It might be wise to remove (in this case) women from the pedestal and stop treating them as a celestial body to be reached, won and claimed. There is no set of obstacles that a man must overcome and then a woman will automatically be interested. It's personal and organic. It's also difficult and sometimes annoying and discouraging, but idealizing, dehumanizing and villainizing the other party gets no one anywhere and only breeds resentment down the line.

A while back, I even posted a thread about this asking if men on the forum had women in their lives who they liked as simply friends, but wouldn't pursue sexually / romantically to make a point to someone offline. Guess what? Men have friends they really just consider friends, too. I'm always surprised that this is such a novel concept, really. I've a male friend who has me in his friend zone and he's smack-dab in the center of mine, too, and we've known one another for years and hang out every chance we get. It's not a bad thing, it's simply a category. Some people don't mind categories.

[Litchee]

I do believe that this "friend zone" business is relatively simple.

It's the story of a guy (we'll call him Robert) who idolizes a woman. He is usually shy and uneasy about relationships with women as a whole, and he doesn't really see that woman as a human being but as a perfect goddess.
Whatever he may believe, his main motivation is sexual attraction. He really wants to have sex with that woman (we'll call her Julie).
Now, as he doesn't actually know that much about her actual personality (again, no matter what he may believe because "he's been here for her all these years", etc.), this Julie could be one of two kinds of women (I caricature for the sake of the argument. Of course there are more than two kinds of women in reality).

Scenario 1 : Julie is really a self-involved superficial bitch. As a result, she isn't really looking for a meaningful relationship or interested in finding out what Robert hides under his shy exterior. No relationship will ever happen between them unless she gets really really bored. That's basically why she keeps him around. Also, comfort, compliments, and gifts.
Robert is friendzoned.

Scenario 2 : Julie is really an awesome, beautiful and smart person. But she also has a ton of flaws and doubts and complex things about her that Robert isn't actually trying to discover. In fact, he's not being a good friend to her, despite what he might think. He doesn't challenge her, doesn't criticize her, doesn't stimulate her. He doesn't even really want to know her, in all her human imperfection. He just stands there adoringly. While being dishonest about his feelings/attraction to her (but not hiding them well enough for her to not be aware of them anyway).
So what is Julie to do? She keeps him as a friend because she doesn't want to blow him off and she still thinks he's an OK person. But for a boyfriend, she needs someone that she is attracted to and most women are more attracted to interesting, challenging men than to puppy dogs.
Robert is friendzoned.

Robert: get a life, buddy. Try to think of something else than your penis. I don't know if you'll eventually manage to get some one day, but I sure know that this ^ isn't how.

Now some men who claim themselves "friendzoned" who tell me that I'm wrong; they really do know this person and have an amazing connection to her and all her flaws 'n shit.
To what I will respond: then you haven't been friendzoned. You have been implicitly (or explicitly) rejected. This woman isn't interested in you. That's it.
You need to get out of this damaging friendship that obviously isn't good for you, or at least put a good deal of distance between you (no seeing her alone, no more than one online interaction per week, seeing other friends at least once a week without her).
I guarantee you, putting my good solid imaginary money on it, that after a few months tops away from this person, you will feel a lot better.

[Shadeylark]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's passive-aggressive and reeks of butthurt. "Friendzone" is used in place of "won't let me fuck her, what a bitch" where men/boys feel entitled to sex. Proof: it is never used by those who would not want to fuck her. To those who use it: you're not entitled to sex with any/every woman. Get over it, get over her, and move the fuck on.

it ain't so much the feeling of being entitled that is the issue...

its the feeling of being used.

these guys who get friend-zoned are, to put it simply, usually put in that emotional limbo by women who feel no compunction about taking everything the guy is giving them without a second thought. the guy is putting in the time and effort of a relationship, she's accepting his efforts, but not reciprocating. which would be fine... if she made it clear what her intentions were.

most of the time friend-zoned guys never get that sort of clarity from the women who pull this stunt... hence the resentment. friend-zoned guys are guys who don't get outright rejected, but instead are kept in limbo.

the guys are strung along by these women and they have every right to be just as pissed at it as a woman would be if the roles were reversed.

the difference is though, that guys don't typically play these same emotional mind-games with women (other kinds sure, but not this particular scenario)... so you don't hear about women being put in the same position, but don't for one second think that if the roles were reversed women would feel any differently. its even possible that it would be frowned upon even more harshly if it happened to women... because after all, no REAL man would ever turn down an offer of sex from a woman, right? i mean, all men think and care about is sex, right?!

[Litchee]

	Originally Posted by Shadeylark To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	these guys who get friend-zoned are, to put it simply, usually put in that emotional limbo by women who feel no compunction about taking everything the guy is giving them without a second thought. the guy is putting in the time and effort of a relationship, she's accepting his efforts, but not reciprocating. which would be fine... if she made it clear what her intentions were.

Right. Because it's her fault if the guy is attracted to her, it's her fault if he feels compelled to spend his time/energy/money on her behalf, and it's her responsibility to tell him that she doesn't feel the same way about him.
Some more tips for these guys:
- Don't be generous to someone if you're waiting for something in return.
- When you're unsure if a girl is interested in you, ask her. If she won't answer, take it as a no. If she answers vaguely, take it as a no. If she says no, take it as a no.

I really don't get why the second a guy starts being attracted to a girl, it automatically becomes her problem. Take charge of your life, guys.
I get that it's sad if you're not having any sex, but women on this planet aren't responsible for not being attracted to you. It's not really something they control.
Plus, chances are, some women are or will be attracted to you. Just give 'em a little time, and stop acting puppy-dog-like. Seriously. Stop.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by Litchee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I really don't get why the second a guy starts being attracted to a girl, it automatically becomes her problem. Take charge of your life, guys. I get that it's sad if you're not having any sex, but women on this planet aren't responsible for not being attracted to you. It's not really something they control.

As a way to explain it, imagine being angry at some stranger for not letting you stay in their home. It's their home and their choice to allow you to stay.

[Ender]

The flaw here is that people are lumping a nuanced phenomenon under one narrow term and using language like "men this" and "women that." Let's stop kidding ourselves; every situation is different. Every person is nuanced. The reasons for why a relationship works or doesn't work could be studied ad nauseum and would not become scientifically quantifiable. Why? Cause the people who are most successful are too busy being blissfully in love to describe the situation with any sort of rationality.

Love is not something inherently rational. It is an amazing, precious, and moving thing, but it is not rational.

People who use the term "Friend Zone" are most likely trying to find a way to: 1) Understand their circumstances in a summarized way, 2) Relate to others, and 3) (In the case of discarding the would-be romantic partner even as a friend) creating a detachment/distance from something very human. It's really not any more complicated than that. Bitterness happens - that's part of being human, but bitterness is not the beginning and end of the term. Some people are just in the wrong situations at the wrong time with the wrong set of experiences; to judge them all on either end is asinine and bespeaks a different kind of bitterness. A bitterness towards people that one has trouble understanding.

[Tough Love]

Friend Zoning... I 'Friend Zone' men all the time. I think it comes from a low self esteem and helps prevent a waste of my time. If the guy doesn't show interest immediately as i find myself attracted to him, or plays ''chase me' games', as a protective measure i friend zone him, ie mentally change the way i speak to him, react to him, my body language also changes, until the attraction goes. It gets rid of all those icky achey feelings.. Most women can afford to do this if they have a strong ego. I should think men do it too.

Fish. Sea...

[sunitaishot]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's passive-aggressive and reeks of butthurt. "Friendzone" is used in place of "won't let me fuck her, what a bitch" where men/boys feel entitled to sex. Proof: it is never used by those who would not want to fuck her. To those who use it: you're not entitled to sex with any/every woman. Get over it, get over her, and move the fuck on.

Maybe. But it seems a psychologically valid concept nonetheless.

[mieu]

	Originally Posted by kingfish To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Sex isn't that hard to come by.

I think everyone bitching about being in the friend-zone just went to get their pitchforks, you might want to start running.

[sunitaishot]

If a guy gets friendzoned, it's his own fault, and never the woman's.

Simply either be more attractive to her, or move on and find somebody else.

There are 7 billion people alive now. 3.5 billion of these are female. let us say that 1 billion of these are women of dateable age (excluding children and young adolescents). 1 billion more women (other than the one who friendzoned you) are available, so why moan?

[Nemesis]

I may be weird here, but provided the desire to be friends is sincere, I've never understood why it's a bad thing. If romantic compatibility isn't there, it's just not there. Move on to other interests with more potential. If the feeling of unrequited attraction is rough for you, by all means back off. But, blowing off a potentially rewarding friendship because of your own butt-hurt or irrational sense of entitlement seems foolish to me. It's not about anyone being "at fault", it's about accepting how things are versus how you want them to be.

Younger guys seem to weave so much of their self-worth, ego, and pride into dating and relationships these days. I can't imagine dating would be very satisfying for these guys even if things work out well.

[zibber]

Yes, because there's "a window to make a move" and if you miss it, all potential of amorous (sorry, sexual) attraction is gone.

Jesus the fuck Christ.

---------- Post added 08-23-2012 at 03:43 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Nemesis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I may be weird here, but provided the desire to be friends is sincere, I've never understood why it's a bad thing. If romantic compatibility isn't there, it's just not there. Move on to other interests with more potential. If the feeling of unrequited attraction is rough for you, by all means back off. But, blowing off a potentially rewarding friendship because of your own butt-hurt or irrational sense of entitlement seems foolish to me. It's not about anyone being "at fault", it's about accepting how things are versus how you want them to be. Younger guys seem to weave so much of their self-worth, ego, and pride into dating and relationships these days. I can't imagine dating would be very satisfying for these guys even if things work out well.

Wiener, vagiener, no-no, boo hoo.

(<- see fig.1)

[Shadeylark]

Originally Posted by Litchee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Right. Because it's her fault if the guy is attracted to her, it's her fault if he feels compelled to spend his time/energy/money on her behalf, and it's her responsibility to tell him that she doesn't feel the same way about him. Some more tips for these guys: - Don't be generous to someone if you're waiting for something in return. - When you're unsure if a girl is interested in you, ask her. If she won't answer, take it as a no. If she answers vaguely, take it as a no. If she says no, take it as a no. I really don't get why the second a guy starts being attracted to a girl, it automatically becomes her problem. Take charge of your life, guys. I get that it's sad if you're not having any sex, but women on this planet aren't responsible for not being attracted to you. It's not really something they control. Plus, chances are, some women are or will be attracted to you. Just give 'em a little time, and stop acting puppy-dog-like. Seriously. Stop.

not at all her fault if he's attracted to her, never said it was.

its her fault if she is aware of this attraction, and continues to allow him to think he has a chance when he in fact does not.

as an example of the kind of disingenuous behaviour im talking about... when a woman accepts a date from a guy she has no intention of becoming involved with, and never did, just because she's hungry/bored and wants a nice dinner she won't have to pay for.

that would be a friend-zone instance.

another problem too though, is that many times a woman will misinterpret the guy's intentions. just like how the man will misinterpret the woman's intention when he feels he's been friend-zoned.

alot of times, im willing to bet, there are women who are assuming a male friend's romantic attraction to her when it actually doesn't exist. in which case, i would say that friend-zone is not an accurate term (as friend-zone is a term that can only be applied from the perspective of the person with the feelings of attraction).

but then the problem really does fall on her for her inflated sense of self, her belief that male friends who have no interest in them physically are just out for sex. this is a problem ill bet happens all too often (probably not with the women on this forum, who by virtue of their temperament are less susceptible to such ways of thinking than the more commonplace guardian or artisan types).

its all a vicious cycle with both sides trying to blame the other, unfortunately, as with many things, simply by virtue of being the one with the vagina, women's points of view are usually taken as gospel in this sort of thing.

[Tough Love]

	Originally Posted by Shadeylark To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	.. when a woman accepts a date from a guy she has no intention of becoming involved with, and never did, just because she's hungry/bored and wants a nice dinner she won't have to pay for.

There are women who have the patience to sit through a dinner with someone they will have to waste time and energy on ditching at some point in the future? Are we perhaps living in Hollywood drama here?

There have been times i've offered to pay for dinner to make the point that this ISN'T going to go anywhere, once i've clocked that he thinks we are leading to somewhere more than just friends. I usually have to deal with a rather indignant male when i do. Perhaps the indignation is because they were expecting something and when i offer to pay it kills their expectation?

Too stressful.

I do not assume when someone asks me if i'de like to catch a bite, that it's a date. I try not to assume anything. I eat dinner with my girlfriends all the time. Generally we take turns to pay, but at times we will take each other out, that's what friends do where i come from. I know many men who do so as well with their male friends. Gay and straight.

If you really need things spelled out in black and white, ask. Don't faff around.

---------- Post added 08-23-2012 at 03:22 PM ----------

These threads serve one purpose only, and that is to drive a wedge between men and women.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by Tough Love To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	These threads serve one purpose only, and that is to drive a wedge between men and women.

Yanno what? That's very true. Well done, bitter men who want to share the bad feelings! *golf clap*

[AnaK]

I could see being sexually attracted to.someone, but not knowing enough about their character to.want to.be anything more than friends at that time.

I could also.see, in fact it has happened to.me, having a crush.on someone and we're only.friends, only.will ever be friends, see him date various women, but I still enjoy.talking and maybe even flirting with him. Maybe I'm just used to.not getting everything I want, but it doesn't burn me up.inside when I realize a guy doesn't want.to.date me.

[Versipellis]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Originally Posted by Tough Love These threads serve one purpose only, and that is to drive a wedge between men and women. Yanno what? That's very true. Well done, bitter men who want to share the bad feelings! *golf clap*

Err...actually, I was hoping to have the two sides understand each other to get rid of the ignorance there. I've seen a few threads like this before and was never satisfied with how they ended. I thought that I could perhaps steer the conversation into a mutual understanding. I do believe I'm failing. For the record, I am a woman. I have myself been friendzoned once, which I referenced in an earlier post, and that has lead to one of the best friendships I have. We really don't mesh well enough to date, he was correct in that, but as friends we have done fantastic.

I have also friendzoned a fellow who was interested in me. I had not been leading him on. In fact, I explicitly told him that I did not want to date. He had always seemed to accept this, but then one day I suppose it really did hit him that I would not date and he cut off ties with me. As I alluded to earlier, I found this to be incredibly hurtful and insulting. Here he was thinking we had enough compatibility to be in a relationship, yet he also decides a regular friendship is not worthwhile. You could argue that he was feeling all angsty and didn't want to be around me while he was still wanting, but it has been years from then and he is in a nice, healthy relationship now and still won't speak with me. I feel like that level of resentment is unwarranted and stems from either his or my ignorance somewhere. I was hoping to figure out where that ignorance drove a wedge by examining comments in this thread.

Tough Love and plotthickens, what I suggest is that the wedge is driven at some point prior to threads like this and I don't know where. What I would like to see is constructive discussion trying to figure out where that wedge stems from and how it can be avoided in the future. It floors me to think that a handful of people that I appreciate having in my life will one day cut off ties if they develop romantic intentions that I can't return. I feel like that's a time bomb for all my friendships, women included.

By the way, Nemesis, I completely agree with you.

[Tough Love]

	Originally Posted by Versipellis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Tough Love and plotthickens, what I suggest is that the wedge is driven at some point prior to threads like this and I don't know where.

The numerous other threads with the same theme? You can't manipulate people into agreeing with each other, no matter how you steer the conversation. It's just feeding the fire imo. Just another platform for people to use as a 'waaaaah waaaaah' stage.

[Versipellis]

	Originally Posted by Tough Love To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The numerous other threads with the same theme? You can't manipulate people into agreeing with each other, no matter how you steer the conversation. It's just feeding the fire imo. Just another platform for people to use as a 'waaaaah waaaaah' stage.

Unless the argument is based off of ignorance. If it is just different opinions clashing, then you're right and I'm wrong. This thread is completely pointless and a waste of time. Entertaining, perhaps, but a waste of time.

However, I believe the reason you see it less in older crowds is that they are mature enough to stop, think about the other person's reasoning, and then try to understand that. Once they do, they can accept the friendship. This, to me, is the understanding that happens once two people open up enough to slice that ignorance that previously existed to shreds. Not warring opinions on the subject matter, just ignorance in what the other person is thinking. What I want to see is if it is possible to achieve that same result with consistency. I personally don't want to needlessly lose perfectly good friendships if it really is just ignorance that's shooting them down.

[Tough Love]

Good luck enlightening people. I mean that wholeheartedly. Personally I am well past having patience for ignorant people when it comes to sex and gender related topics. Everyone grows up at their own rate, and if they don't, more fool them.