[UltraIncredible]

Have any of you ever known someone who just seemed like a total jerk with no redeeming personal qualities? Just a complete, degenerate scumbag of a human being? Yet for some reason people still hang out with them, talk to them, do them favors and call them a friend? What's with that anyway?

[Feral]

I have at least one friend who is probably viewed that way. Truth is, he is an asshole. But I understand him. He also has a lot of redeeming qualities, the largest of which being his incredible mind. It's an asshole mind to be sure, but I find him entertaining. He simply gives no fucks about what other people think. We have a long and storied history already, so I'm never wondering what the hell is wrong with him. Also not a degenerate scumbag, at least not at this point in life. Under his assholiness, there's a gentle heart and a scarred soul. He doesn't make friends easily, but his real friends who stick around do so because they love him fiercely.

I know the types you're talking about though. I think they tend to be insecure people, and they try to put on a front through that. Then other people who are also insecure want some of that action, so they hop on their coat tails and try to hitch a ride.

[pyramidheadrock]

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What's with that anyway?

Dominance is a really atractive trait, specially for males. By asserting himself, showing off, and mocking others, this assholes appear to be more "alpha". And, of course, other males would like to recive acceptation from this alpha male, thus being their friends.

[UltraIncredible]

Originally Posted by Feral To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I have at least one friend who is probably viewed that way. Truth is, he is an asshole. But I understand him. He also has a lot of redeeming qualities, the largest of which being his incredible mind. It's an asshole mind to be sure, but I find him entertaining. He simply gives no fucks about what other people think. We have a long and storied history already, so I'm never wondering what the hell is wrong with him. Also not a degenerate scumbag, at least not at this point in life. Under his assholiness, there's a gentle heart and a scarred soul. He doesn't make friends easily, but his real friends who stick around do so because they love him fiercely. I know the types you're talking about though. I think they tend to be insecure people, and they try to put on a front through that. Then other people who are also insecure want some of that action, so they hop on their coat tails and try to hitch a ride.

So in his case it's more like one of those asshole-with-a-heart-of-gold type things?

[Polymath20]

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Have any of you ever known someone who just seemed like a total jerk with no redeeming personal qualities? Just a complete, degenerate scumbag of a human being? Yet for some reason people still hang out with them, talk to them, do them favors and call them a friend? What's with that anyway?

You seem to be talking about almost every ENTJ I've ever met. They can be abrasive, so thicker-skinned people don't mind them. ENTJ types seem to be comedians and entertainers, which people enjoy a good laugh if they can also take the abrasive quality. They are also intense and passionate, which can be exciting to be around.

[UltraIncredible]

	Originally Posted by pyramidheadrock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Dominance is a really atractive trait, specially for males. By asserting himself, showing off, and mocking others, this assholes appear to be more "alpha". And, of course, other males would like to recive acceptation from this alpha male, thus being their friends.

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You seem to be talking about almost every ENTJ I've ever met. They can be abrasive, so thicker-skinned people don't mind them. ENTJ types seem to be comedians and entertainers, which people enjoy a good laugh if they can also take the abrasive quality. They are also intense and passionate, which can be exciting to be around.

So if they can be entertaining enough, or dominant enough, or successful enough, it compensates for being such a prick and either attracts people or makes them want to ride their coattails? Not necessarily just extraverts either. Plenty of introvert assholes who still have friends. (Some of them even on this forum!)

[Coffeebean]

I had a "friend" like that in high school one year. Despite the fact that he was blatantly using us, we kept him around because he was so cute that we could get out of trouble just by having him with us sometimes. Also, funnies.

[pyramidheadrock]

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So if they can be entertaining enough, or dominant enough, or successful enough, it compensates for being such a prick and either attracts people or makes them want to ride their coattails?

Yes. Given, of course, that those followers are also pricks.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You seem to be talking about almost every ENTJ I've ever met. They can be abrasive, so thicker-skinned people don't mind them. ENTJ types seem to be comedians and entertainers, which people enjoy a good laugh if they can also take the abrasive quality. They are also intense and passionate, which can be exciting to be around.

Ha. Pot, meet kettle. ENTPs are major assholes.

[ButterflyPsyche]

I actually talked to my psych professor about this phenomenon during the middle of the lecture hall class one day, and I still wasn't completely satisfied with his answer.

Here's a paraphrase of the conversation, although N.B. it occurred two months ago so obviously it won't be word for word on spot (I dug up my old notes and the powerpoint from that class though to jog my memory).



BP: "You talk about how general compatibility [i.e. the positive traits 'loyal, trusting, kind, forgiving, dependable, cheerful, sense of humor, cooperative'] traits are what people tend to seek out for friendships... but why then are the 'Queen Bees' so popular? There's definitely a stereotype that the nasty bullies tend to have a pack of wannabes surrounding them. I've even read a book, Queen Bees and Wannabes, about the whole issue. Why do cliques exist if this is true?"


Professor: "Ah! Yes. Well, it's all about maturation. When children are younger, in say, grade-school and middle school, their brains are not fully developed yet. They don't know how to interact socially as much so they operate out of fear of the bully. Scientifically speaking, the vast majority of people should grow out of seeking out people like that after college because the brain finishes developing around that time."



So there you go, it's apparently developmental.

But I still don't buy it that people "grow out of it"... I know I've heard about office cliques and bureaucracy everywhere. So who knows.

[Cat1021]

I think there are at least a couple different reasons for this. One being that these people are assholes themselves and like behavior will stick together. Another is that, like another poster said, the asshole might have some redeeming qualities others don't know about. For all we know, he may save dying puppies on the road. And another is the "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality. The mentality that the guy is a super dick, and they would rather be on the side of the line that isn't usually a target of his worse behaviors.

[UltraIncredible]

Originally Posted by ButterflyPsyche To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Professor: "Ah! Yes. Well, it's all about maturation. When children are younger, in say, grade-school and middle school, their brains are not fully developed yet. They don't know how to interact socially as much so they operate out of fear of the bully. Scientifically speaking, the vast majority of people should grow out of seeking out people like that after college because the brain finishes developing around that time." So there you go, it's apparently developmental. But I still don't buy it that people "grow out of it"... I know I've heard about office cliques and bureaucracy everywhere. So who knows.

I think people in their 20s and 30s do tend to be more mature than people in high school or middle school, and some people look back with regret on what kind of person they used to be. But yes, there's still the whole office politics, cliques, backstabbing BS in different forms when people are mature adults. It's just that they're a lot better about hiding it or making themselves look the opposite. A guy like Donald Trump doesn't even try to hide it, everyone knows he's a total asshole. But I'm guessing that it's easier to be like this when you're already (or on your way to being) super rich, a professional athletes or entertainer, a media pundit, or otherwise holding some position of power and influence.

[Fox]

Think back to the first assholes you've meet way back when you were a kid in school. That asshole was probably a natural leader who could gather and persuade a crowd. Rather than be a target of their asshole behavior you can be on the winning side.

Even now people recognize that alpha dog even if they are asshole version of one. They will get followers and ass kissers no matter what.

[Polymath20]

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So if they can be entertaining enough, or dominant enough, or successful enough, it compensates for being such a prick and either attracts people or makes them want to ride their coattails? Not necessarily just extraverts either. Plenty of introvert assholes who still have friends. (Some of them even on this forum!)

well remember, thick skinned people will not perceive them as assholes.

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ha. Pot, meet kettle. ENTPs are major assholes.

I can definitely be a prick, but usually I try to reserve that card for people who particularly earn my ire
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[Distance]

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I can definitely be a prick, but usually I try to reserve that card for people who particularly earn my ire To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

While I can be a major asshole, there are ENTJs who aren't. To blanket ENTJs like that, is to blanket ENTPs.
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[sircockburn]

Nah. It only looks that way. Until you look closer and see that the asshole is actually sort of just forcing himself in the groups. Or is ultimately being used, even if just for entertainment.

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ha. Pot, meet kettle. ENTPs are major assholes.

O ya? Well, xxxx types stand for a censored 4 letter word!
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[frontaLobotomy]

Hm, have you not seen the people these types usually hang out with? It's rarely a stellar line-up.

[Polymath20]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	While I can be a major asshole, there are ENTJs who aren't. To blanket ENTJs like that, is to blanket ENTPs. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

That's why I said almost every ENTJ. It's the type of blanket where your feet stick out the bottom cause they're too hot.

[Haumea]

	Ha. Pot, meet kettle. ENTPs are major assholes.

ENTPs are deliberately provocative, subversive assholes. ENTJs are bossy, organizer assholes.

They're just different types of assholes.
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[Polymath20]

I do have to say that sometimes I just like getting a rise out of someone
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---------- Post added 08-22-2012 at 09:06 AM ----------

PS. Probably why Litchee nicknamed me "TrollyMath"

[Haumea]

Has anyone come up with an "MBTI: What type of asshole are you?" list yet? If not, that'd be a worthy contribution to the field.

[Polymath20]

I've seen charts focusing on the dysfunctions of each MBTI type. For us ENTP types it was "This fantastic new idea I have will change the world... if I ever get around to finishing it..."

[sunitaishot]

Because common advice on how to make friends is BS. it's not about being "nice", it's about connecting with people.

People who are "bad" but still have friends simply may connect with others of similar temperaments/value systems, or be adept at connecting with others.

I think the ideal of "be kind and people will flock to you" is something out of the PC social belief system. I think human associations are complex than that, since how we value, judge and warm to others is complex.

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Have any of you ever known someone who just seemed like a total jerk with no redeeming personal qualities? Just a complete, degenerate scumbag of a human being? Yet for some reason people still hang out with them, talk to them, do them favors and call them a friend? What's with that anyway?

Strong boundaries and making it hard to get positive feedback - make it so that only those people who really like or respect you, or put in effort to hang around you, will hang around you. This might initially be those weak / insecure people who find strength in your strength. Having the respect of someone or a group of people, in turn shows other (average) people that you have social value and are probably worth hanging around.

And typically the jackass probably is feeding the people emotions that they would like. Like rebellion that helps insecure people feel stronger by association. Selling independence and not caring - for when people are having a hard time or are being treated badly by others... which allows those people to feel better, and possibly be more productive in their lives.

Its only intelligent people who would automatically filter and judge what this person is doing or saying, as opposed to just experiencing the social impact (people who likely either don't need that kind of guy, or wouldn't be accepted in his circle easily anyway because they would refuse to conform to his expectations)

[John F Kennedy]

There's a group around each individual, whether good or bad, who wants to be in the centre.