[Phaze228]

	Originally Posted by Silence To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's a national symbol. A pledge is defined as a solemn promise or undertaking, so the Pledge of Allegiance would be considered a daily affirmation.

You make a promise, and keep saying that promise everyday? That's silly.

[Silence]

I don't think that's what Francis Bellamy had in mind...

---------- Post added 08-14-2012 at 11:30 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Phaze228 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You make a promise, and keep saying that promise everyday? That's silly.

Why? People repeat things every day; is that silly as well?

[stoopidkitty]

I pledge allegiance to a flag and meow meow meow and 'MURICA FUCK YEAH. And God!

Right? I always have a hard time remembering the words. I don't think I butchered the wording too much.

[VF1J]

	Originally Posted by Vermillion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Haha what a good little drone you are. If you were born in the middle east I suppose you'd be suicide bombing shit lol, what a joke. You have no will of your own. You are a pawn, just another beast trained to worship symbolism. Pathetic. I piss on the flag and pledge allegiance to my cock. Fuck America, all hail my balls.

"I pledge allegiance to the balls of the INTJ Forum member Vermillion, and to the phallus for which they are attached, two testicles under one penis, indivisible unless cut off, with liberty and justice for all."

[Eyedears]

	Originally Posted by titi monkey To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Kind of stupid to force children to recite things they don't understand. Children learn more from the example of their parents and from their surroundings.

Agreed. We used to have to say it every morning in grade school, circling the flagpole, hands on our hearts (which I always found utterly asinine---typical INTJ reaction, LOL!), before we went in for instruction. It never stuck with me: it was nothing more than a mindless, boring ritual, which I never questioned (good little Prussian that I was, reared by 2 adult ones), the same way I never questioned anything that adults required of me. But it certainly in no way contributed to whatever patriotism I later developed (mine is not of the flagwaving/4th of July parade variety). By highschool, the whole procedure nauseated me---and I was a staunch conservative by then.

I don't believe in pledging allegiance to anything or anyone but God. Period. No other entity is worthy or trustworthy enough.

To instill true patriotism, they should've had us, bit by bit, memorize the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. But that would of course create a type of American who'd never stand for the kinds of Gramscian encroachments that have become part and parcel of US politics and society for the past 50 years.

[Warrior]

	Originally Posted by Vermillion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Haha what a good little drone you are. If you were born in the middle east I suppose you'd be suicide bombing shit lol, what a joke. You have no will of your own. You are a pawn, just another beast trained to worship symbolism. Pathetic. I piss on the flag and pledge allegiance to my cock. Fuck America, all hail my balls.

Read through this thread and tell me which one of us is the drone. I'm one of the few that stand out from this crowd. It would be pretty easy to come here and say "yeah, just like the rest of you guys, I think it is a joke", but that isn't what I said, is it?

I have plenty of will power and I choose to use it to express my patriotism both in public and in private. I'm not ashamed of doing so. I'm not standing up during the pledge because I don't want to be hassled because I didn't stand up. Real will power there. I'm standing because I believe in what I'm doing.

If we're looking for someone following the crowd, there are plenty of other posters in this thread, including you, that you can look to.

[Polymath20]

I always wondered why a flag needs so much allegiance.

[EdmontonAspie]

The Pledge of Allegiance. *sigh*

About the most exciting thing associated with it
was when the Daughters of the American Revolution
and the Knights of Columbus successfully agitated
to have the words "under God" added to the pledge
in a deliberate counter to "godless" Communism.

*yawns* At least this thread *yawns* cures in...som...zzz...ni...
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*Brahms's lullaby plays in background*

[JTG]

I haven't said the pledge since i figured out what all the words meant. I was pretty confused at the time that they could have children reciting this promise before they could even know the meaning.

Then, later in life, i started to grasp the full weight of what the pledge says. I was horrified that they could require children to say the words before they could even understand the significance.

It's like some retarded kind of brainwashing. Everything is too fluid to make a pledge like that (as a child) to some monolithic entity of which you have no real mental grasp.

As a side note, the only people i've ever seen to make a big deal about saying the pledge - especially about needing others to say it - are also the only people i've seen who feel comfortable bullying people for holding dissident beliefs or for giving unfavorable opinions. These are hypocrites of the highest order, the same as Christians who live viciously attacking others and lawyers who use the letter of the law to piss on the spirit of it.

[MysteriousGnome]

The closest thing to this that I experienced was induction into pioneer organization under socialist Yugoslavia (
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). I had no idea what I was doing.

[titi monkey]

Originally Posted by Eyedears To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Agreed. We used to have to say it every morning in grade school, circling the flagpole, hands on our hearts (which I always found utterly asinine---typical INTJ reaction, LOL!), before we went in for instruction. It never stuck with me: it was nothing more than a mindless, boring ritual, which I never questioned (good little Prussian that I was, reared by 2 adult ones), the same way I never questioned anything that adults required of me. But it certainly in no way contributed to whatever patriotism I later developed (mine is not of the flagwaving/4th of July parade variety). By highschool, the whole procedure nauseated me---and I was a staunch conservative by then. I don't believe in pledging allegiance to anything or anyone but God. Period. No other entity is worthy or trustworthy enough. To instill true patriotism, they should've had us, bit by bit, memorize the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. But that would of course create a type of American who'd never stand for the kinds of Gramscian encroachments that have become part and parcel of US politics and society for the past 50 years.

What is so maddening is that, if we did encourage memorization, or at least a strong familiarization with the Constitution, so many minorities would have gained their proper rights so much sooner than they did (because people would not tolerate discriminatory laws -- or at least would not be able to claim ignorance in their support).

Constitutional republics rely on an educated electorate. It makes one wonder why so many try so hard to keep the masses ignorant. Surely there could have easily been a strong countermovement to the marxism of the universities had not powerful capitalists also benefitted from an ignorant populace. Plenty of massive corporations would likely have also been reeled-in on the grounds of anti-competitive behavior.

As for patriotism, it also includes an acknowledgement of where we went wrong, and what we did about it. Pledging allegiance to a flag before one is aware of all the bad ways it was used (along with the abundant good) only serves to plant the seeds of resentment and feelings of betrayal in those who granted their trust to the "grown-ups" who were supposed to be looking out for them, not lying to them.


I have to admit I don't understand the part of your post that mentions pledging allegiance to God. God is an abstract notion (as in, not a concrete object) that not all people can relate to.

It's my belief that the wording of the early framers refers to God in a very specific way: it is an acknowledgement that we are fallible humans, an aberration of nature, destined to live-out our short lives as best we can. It is an act of humility, recognizing that the intellect does not reign supreme in nature, and that the laws of something greater than man have the final say so.

[Boredom]

I always sat down when told to stand for it. One of my English teachers even called me and the others who sat, communists. I abhorred it and felt as if it was a medieval ritual. I did have gym before that English class, so I came back sweaty and tired and I did not feel like standing. I didn't believe in god and I had a general dislike of this country's corrupt disposition, so that's why I argued with teachers to stay seated. I refuse to "pledge allegiance" to something I don't believe in. I honestly have no idea why anyone would take such a puerile thing so seriously. Kinda glad high school is over with, I don't have to deal with this b.s. anymore.

[True Rune]

I said it a few times in elementary, but that was it. It didn't become a struggle until I refused to do it as an adult. I see no worth in being bound to one country when I can serve the good of the world.

(Jeez, I sound NF here!)

Originally Posted by Warrior

Read through this thread and tell me which one of us is the drone. I'm one of the few that stand out from this crowd. It would be pretty easy to come here and say "yeah, just like the rest of you guys, I think it is a joke", but that isn't what I said, is it? I have plenty of will power and I choose to use it to express my patriotism both in public and in private. I'm not ashamed of doing so. I'm not standing up during the pledge because I don't want to be hassled because I didn't stand up. Real will power there. I'm standing because I believe in what I'm doing. If we're looking for someone following the crowd, there are plenty of other posters in this thread, including you, that you can look to.

It is not as though we conform to non-conformism, we like you (I assume) are also only doing what we believe. I'd like to ask why you feel so patriotic, while also acknowledging your willpower to believe in what you want to.

[Warrior]

	Originally Posted by True Rune To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It is not as though we conform to non-conformism, we like you (I assume) are also only doing what we believe.

The point was whoever was calling me a drone because I was doing what everyone else was. I pointed out that, at least as far as this thread goes, I'm one of the few not doing what most people are claiming to do.

	I'd like to ask why you feel so patriotic, while also acknowledging your willpower to believe in what you want to.

Becasue without the latter, the former is impossible. Just because I evaluated the various options and decided to choose the one that looks superficially like what everyone else doesn't mean I didn't actually choose that.

If you want to stand and say the pledge, fine. If you don't, fine. There are a couple very good reasons why someone would not.

[CallMeSpooky]

Not an American here, but I was rather disturbed when I first learned about the Pledge in American schools. Given my own behaviour back in school, I'm sure I would have clashed with teachers had I went to an American school. I wouldn't have a problem standing while the Pledge is recited, but I wouldn't want to say it.

My main objection isn't even the patriotism. I am fine with people being patriotic as long as it's not chauvinism or imperialism. The problem is that pledging allegiance to something - an idea, a country, a person, whatever - should be a personal thing and decision. Forcing you to say it essentially nullifies the meaning behind it, and any such examples of forced speech are really the opposite of individual freedom, and always give me a feeling of authoritarianism. Another problem is with young children saying it. They're not capable of understanding what it actually means and should not be forced to.

[Backslash]

Sins I'm not American I never had to deal with this.
However if I where, I would not participate in it because of the "one nation under god", seeing as i'm not Christian.

[INTJRyan]

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Say the original pledge and do the original salute.

[LiamN]

I advise to watch the entire (short) video. I'm confident most will enjoy.

But to see the pledge, start 5:51 seconds into the video.

Your opinions are what I seek. Ya? Nay?


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[Starbucks]

As one from Europe I find this having resemblance to North Korea. And before all non INTJ's make their own conclusions I want to explain what I mean. It's just repeating your loyalty to your country it is brainwashing doing something over and over with a group of people. I don't say this to be controversial, I've read the psychology behind it once.

[Chameleon]

Is it not attempting to do the same thing it preaches against?

[The Dan Keizer]

Dan Keizer pledges allegiance to free interaction, the worker retaining the product of his labor, heavy fucking metal and cornucopia for all.

Black flag, baby! WoOOOOoooo!!!

[Paul Siraisi]

I remember it as a sort of extended groan by a bunch of poor little tykes who truly didn't give a shit.

I love my country, and am pretty creative about that. Don't really need to recite anything.

[fokalina]

I don't know one way or the other, but does it actually brainwash people? If the Pledge is the only thing patriotic a child has had in their life, are the somewhat patriotic? Or does it not just brainwash with patriotism (to a flag, a country, a principle, whatever)?

[jasonkramer]

just another way to keep a social group unified. this is a very good thing and helps prevent a lot of problems by reducing diversity(cultural, religious, class, etc). anything that you can do that gives people less reason to see major differences between each other is a good thing. the more you can see someone as being like you, the less likley you are to want to harm them. essentially create a very collectivist society. this of course goes against American thinking and will lead to Americas rightful downfall. reckless diversity loving idiots.

[YetAnother]

I find pledging allegiance to pretty much anything pointless.