[SelfMadeBum]

I have no idea what the fuck you're on about.

[Tactical Panda]

	Originally Posted by SelfMadeBum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have no idea what the fuck you're on about.

Sadness about the general state of the world.

[SelfMadeBum]

Right.

Okay.

[Tactical Panda]

Although to be more accurate I suppose I should say "of everything".

[anticlimatic]

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	Originally Posted by Tactical Panda To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Although to be more accurate I suppose I should say "of everything".

Oh, woe is Fi.....

[Tactical Panda]

	Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Oh, woe is Fi.....

Not really. All types can feel basic human emotions.

[Indubitably]

Incase you guys haven't noticed yet...


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Just sayin... you know... that I got 5:1 odds in favor of the OP starting this thread precisely becasue he knew he would get to talk mad shit once it was undeniably over-ripe with analogs to the defacto standard "I wonder why INTJs are so much more awesome that the other types..." INTJf thread template.

At least I know thats the reason that I would have had for posting it.

[Tactical Panda]

	Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	the defacto standard "I wonder why INTJs are so much more awesome that the other types..." INTJf thread template.

The defacto template is pretty much "What type is this person/am I?"

As to INTPs, some of them seem to only demonstrate a narrow scope of behavior. This falls within that boring, limited scope. INTPs who fall outside of it I find more interesting.

Your spin on things that happen here are seriously flawed, and to some rather transparent. A claim to meta supremacy to save face is old news on the internet, and the foundation for most of internet debate culture when argument has been rationally demolished. Or people expect it to be.

[Indubitably]

Originally Posted by Tactical Panda To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The defacto template is pretty much "What type is this person/am I?" As to INTPs, some of them seem to only demonstrate a narrow scope of behavior. This falls within that boring, limited scope. INTPs who fall outside of it I find more interesting. Your spin on things that happen here are seriously flawed, and to some rather transparent. A claim to meta supremacy to save face is old news on the internet, and the foundation for most of internet debate culture when argument has been rationally demolished. Or people expect it to be.

Oooh, ouch. Out come the claws, eh? Carefull Tactical Panda, you don't want to openly tip your cards too soon by revealing the fact that your rag tag band of stalwart Indubitably-Resistance fighter vigilantes are on to my insidious plot to enslave the minds of INTJs everywhere with rationally demolished propaganda do you? After all, who knows how many INTJs I've allready replaced with pod people?

Please do feel free to continue struggling fruitlessly with your recruitment efforts though. I am quite confident that between the subliminal programming, brain worms, and all those years dedicated to pretending that I posessed so little facility for the orchistration of diabolical plots that I would barely manage to topple the power structure of my sock drawer, has rather flawlessly lured virtually every INTJ on INTJf into a false sense of security.

Don't worry though, in the end, when the brain worms finaly mature, you won't even remember why you ever bothered to think like anything other than an INTP in the first place, and we'll all be one big happy INTP hive mind. Doesn't that sound like fun Tactical Panda? We'll all be the best of friends then. >:D

[Tactical Panda]

Dude, idiots on the internet trying to win arguments they are losing are hardly that outlandish. And that sort of behavior is a fact of modern life.

All they need to do is continue to be idiots. No intelligence or any new is required in their plots.

They don't need to be fought, just pointed out as being idiots as you casually pass by if you feel inclined. Sometimes rather indirectly.

[Melchizedek]

	Originally Posted by wolfyx To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think it’s pretty obvious (for the MBTI experts) why INTP personalities are more likely to be pioneers of thought. It’s also pretty obvious that the vast majority of Philosophers and Scientists that pushed the human understanding further were INTP personalities.

Oh yeah? Tell us about these obvious philosophers and scientists that were INTPs.

[Amphorian]

	Originally Posted by wolfyx To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But even if we take away my "ego" from the equation, the title of the OP still stands as an objective statement.

You better be proving yourself with well thought out logical arguments and empirical evidence in that case. Something you're failing greatly at so far. Especially in the case of understanding Jungian cognitive functions and the MBTI.

[scorpiomover]

	Originally Posted by Tactical Panda To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Sadness about the general state of the world.

Way too Fe, dude. Way too Fe. Seriously. You're starting to sound like an INFP, or an INTP with highly-developed Fe.


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[wolfyx]

	Originally Posted by Melchizedek To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh yeah? Tell us about these obvious philosophers and scientists that were INTPs.

Abraham Lincoln
U.S. President

Lincoln: "As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy."

Karl Marx: "[Lincoln] ... gives his most important actions the most commonplace form. ... Even when he is gripped by an idea, he talks [in dry phrases]."

Karl Marx: "[He behaves] as though apologizing for being compelled by circumstances 'to act the lion.'"

Ulysses S. Grant: "Lincoln ... was willing to trust his generals in making and executing their plans."

Kelley L. Ross: "[Lincoln] may simply have been a superb Machiavellian politician, using the necessary and sufficient means to achieving the good and just end."

[Lincoln's law partner:] "He cared little for simple facts. ... It was the underlying principle ... that Lincoln [cared about]."

Myers identifies Lincoln as an introvert.

Keirsey identifies Lincoln as INTP.


Albert Einstein
Physicist

Einstein: "To punish me for my contempt for authority, Fate made me an authority myself."

Robert Oppenheimer: "There was always with him a wonderful purity at once childlike and profoundly stubborn."

Stephen Hawking: "When a book was published entitled '100 Authors Against Einstein,' he retorted, 'If I were wrong, then one would have been enough!'"

Myers identifies Einstein as an introvert.

Keirsey identifies Einstein as INTP.


Charles Darwin
Biologist

Darwin: "A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections - a mere heart of stone."

Darwin: "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: It is those who know little ... who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."

Jung identifies Darwin as E-TJ.

Myers identifies Darwin as an extrovert.

Keirsey identifies Darwin as INTP.


Leonardo da Vinci
Inventor and painter

Da Vinci: "Practice must always be founded on ... theory ... and without this nothing can be done well."

Da Vinci: "The human foot - a masterpiece of engineering."

[Last sentence of a mathematical theorem in his notebook:]
Da Vinci: "Perche la minesstra si fredda."
("Whatever - the soup is getting cold.")

Freud: "My book on Leonardo is the only beautiful thing I have ever written."



Immanuel Kant
Philosopher

Kant: "There is nothing higher than reason."

Kant: "A [monarch] may evaluate his own governance. He can do this when ... he lays upon himself the reproach 'the Ruler is not above the Rules.'"

Kant: "I am an investigator by inclination. I feel a great thirst for knowledge."

Kelley L. Ross: "[Kant] wishes to construe reason as no more than the formal rules that become evident in logic."

Hannah Arendt: "Kant ... was much bothered by the common opinion that philosophy is only for the few ... because of this opinion's moral implications."

Jung identifies Kant as INTP.

Kant's notion of the ruler's discretion is the opposite of that of Nixon: "When the president does it, that means that it is not illegal."


Milton Friedman
Economist

Friedman: "To really understand something you've got to reduce it to its principles."

Friedman: "In every discipline, progress comes from people who make hypotheses, most of which turn out to be wrong, but all of which ultimately point to the right answer."

[Asked if he was a libertarian:]
Friedman: "I'm much more interested in having people thinking about the ideas, rather than the person."

Friedman: "The proper role of government is exactly what John Stuart Mill said. ... The proper role of government is to prevent other people from harming an individual [and not much else]."

David Friedman: "[With my father] it was simply taken for granted that what mattered was how good your arguments were, not who was making them."


Richard Dawkins
Biologist, author of 'The Selfish Gene' and 'The God Delusion'

Dawkins: "What worries me about religion is that it teaches people to be satisfied with not understanding."

Dawkins: "I don't want to sound callous ... even if I have nothing to offer ... that doesn't mean that what anybody else has to offer [is] true."

[On the school he is considering starting:]
Dawkins: "I am almost pathologically afraid of indoctrinating children. ... It would be a 'Think for Yourself Academy.'"


John Locke
Philosopher

Locke: "To love truth for truth's sake is ... the seed-plot of all other virtues."

Locke: "Logic is the anatomy of thought."

Locke: "Reading furnishes the mind only with materials of knowledge; it is thinking that makes what we read ours."

Locke: "Religion, which ... ought most particularly elevate us, as rational creatures ... is that where men often appear most irrational, and more senseless than beasts."


Franz Kafka
Author of 'The Trial'

Kafka: "Something like my [mixture of characteristics] I have never found anywhere else: Cold indifference, a childish helplessness approaching the ridiculous, and a brutish complacence."

Kafka: "[I have] the indifference of a self-sufficient but coldly imaginative child."

Kafka: "How easy it is to admire Napoleon!"

Peter Drucker: "What few people know is that outside his work as a fiction writer, Kafka is also the inventor of modern safety headgear, as used on construction sites."


Garry Kasparov
Chess champion and political activist, author of 'How Life Imitates Chess'

Kasparov: "In chess, bigamy is acceptable but monarchy is absolute."

Kasparov: "In everything you do analyze yourself and analyze your opponents. What are your strengths and weaknesses? What are his strengths and weaknesses? Analyze the field and then play by that."

Kasparov: "[Politics] is all about principles."


James Madison
U.S. President and author of the Constitution

Madison: "Truth [comes only] from those ... who cultivate their reason."

Madison: "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Madison: "Toleration is a gift, free men excise their rights."

Madison: "In ... assemblies ... passion [wrests] the sceptre from reason. Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob."

Garry Wills: "As a framer and defender of the Constitution [Madison] had no peer."

Richard Brookhiser: "Madison lived in his head and public speaking did not come naturally to him."

Richard Brookhiser: "Madison loathed Hamilton and loved Jefferson above all."

Keirsey identifies Madison as INTP.


Adam Smith
Economist

Milton Friedman: "There is not a line in 'The Wealth of Nations' that is not still applicable to this day."


Thomas Aquinas
Philosopher and theologian

Aquinas: "Reason in man is rather like God in the world."

Anthony Kenny: "[To Aquinas] the senses are what we have in common with dumb animals. ... Our better part [is] the mind ... and [its] intellectual contemplation."

Anthony Kenny: "[To Aquinas] the intellect [stands] at the summit of ... the human soul."

Ayn Rand: "Aquinas brought an Aristotelian view of reason back into European culture, and lighted the way toward the Renaissance."


René Descartes
Philosopher

Descartes: "Cogito ergo sum."
("I think, therefore I am.")

Descartes: "Each problem that I solved became a rule, which served afterwards to solve other problems."

Allen W. Wood: "Descartes recommended that we distrust the senses and rely on the ... use of our intellect."

Kelley L. Ross: "Descartes is justly regarded as the Father of Modern Philosophy. This is not because of the positive results of his investigations, which were few, but because of the questions ... and problems that he [raised], problems that have still not been answered."


Max Weber
Sociologist and philosopher, author of 'The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism'

Weber: "The modern world is but a convergence of factors so unlikely to occur as to be practically an accident."

Weber: "A fully developed bureaucratic mechanism stands in the same relationship to other forms as does the machine to the non-mechanical production of goods. Precision, speed, clarity."

Weber: "Nothing is gained by assuming that, if only the [prospect] of a non-[capitalist] economy was investigated seriously enough, a suitable ... method [for running such an economy] would be discovered ... [This] problem is fundamental to any kind of [Marxism]."


Friedrich A. Hayek
Economist and philosopher, author of 'The Road to Serfdom'

Hayek: "It may indeed prove to be far the most difficult and not the least important task for human reason rationally to comprehend its own limitations."

Milton Friedman: "My interest in political philosophy was rather casual until I met Hayek."

Ronald Reagan: "Hayek is amongst the top 2-3 of the all the people who ever influenced me."

Karl Popper: "I have learned more from Hayek than from any other living thinker, except perhaps Alfred Tarski - but not even excepting Russell."

Keirsey identifies Hayek as INT.


Marie Curie
Nobel prize in both physics and chemistry

Curie: "Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood."

Curie: "I am among those who think that science has great beauty."

Curie: "Be less curious about people and more curious about ideas."

Einstein: "Marie Curie is, of all [famous people], the only one whom fame has not corrupted."

Keirsey identifies Curie as INTP.


Hannah Arendt
Philosopher and author of 'The Human Condition'

Arendt: "Thinking ... interrupts all doing, all ordinary activities no matter what they happen to be. ... The moment we start thinking ... we stop everything else."

Arendt: "If the ability to tell right from wrong should have anything to do with the ability to think, then we must be able to 'demand' its exercise in every sane person no matter how erudite or ignorant."

Arendt: "Nietzsche ... has caused [philosophers] so much confusion."

Arendt: "The business of thinking ... undoes every morning what it had finished the night before."


Nagarjuna
Buddhist philosopher and author of 'The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way'

Nagarjuna: "The wise man's mind does not strive but simply reflects, free of desire."

Steve Hagen: "Nagarjuna's teachings have undergirded virtually all of the ... developments [in Buddhist philosophy] ... since his day. ... It is the clarity that he brought ... that makes him stand out."

Kenneth Innada: "Nagarjuna is a giant among giants."

Christian Lindtner: "Nagarjuna's teaching is rather like Zeno's."

Nagarjuna's notion of reflecting free of striving is the same as that of Darwin: "A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections..."


Dogen Zenji
Zen master and philosopher, author of 'The Shobogenzo'

Dogen: "A Zen master's life is one continuous mistake."

Dogen: "True reality ... is outside of [human] thought. ... Flowers fall even though we love them, weeds grow even though we dislike them."

Phillip Olson: "Kant's thesis ... seems close in spirit to Dogen's."


Thales of Miletus
Greek philosopher

Bertrand Russell: "Western philosophy begins with Thales."

Aristotle: "Thales was the first of the Greek philosophers."

Nietzsche: "As a mathematician and an astronomer, Thales had a chilly relationship with allegory and myth."


Parmenides
Greek philosopher, student of Xenophanes

Parmenides: "Let reason alone decide."

Parmenides: "You must learn all things, both the unshaken heart of truth, and the opinions of mortals in which there is no warranty."

Daniel W. Graham: "It may be a historical fact that Parmenides is a kind of super-logician."

Scott Austin: "[The thinking of] later philosophers appears softer by comparison."

Edward Hussey: "Like Descartes, Parmenides is trying to find an unassailable starting-point on which something further can be built."

Karl Popper: "I have spoken to Einstein and he admitted to me that his theory was in fact no different from the one of Parmenides."



Thucydides
Greek historian

Thucydides: "Few things are brought to a successful issue by impetuous desire, but most by calm and prudent forethought."

Thucydides: "The bravest are surely those who have the clearest [understanding of] what is before them ... and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it."


Edward Gibbon
Historian and author of 'The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Gibbon: "Reading could not teach me to think. ... [Only] rational application [could do that]."

Churchill: "I set out [to read Gibbon and] was immediately dominated both by the story and the style. ...I [read] it from end to end and enjoyed it all."

Roderick Graham: "For Gibbon's objectivity in writing about Christianity, he was heavily censored then, and still is today."

David Hume [in a letter to Gibbon:] "The dignity of your style, the depth of your matter [and] the extensiveness of your learning [makes your work an] object of esteem."

Unusually for INTPs, Gibbon also has Narcissistic traits.

Gibbon's notion of reading's relationship to thinking is the same as that of Locke: "Reading furnishes the mind only with materials of knowledge..."


Jimmy Wales
Founder of Wikipedia

Wales: "My style is somehow reflected in the Wikipedia style. A friend says it's a really good quality and also very infuriating that I'm so neutral all the time."

[When told he has been called a new and more open type of leader, the opposite of the command and control of Jack Welch:]
Wales: "I think there is something to that, in fact to the point where I am not always comfortable being called a leader."


Paul Graham
Essayist and tech startup investor at Y Combinator

Graham: "Rebellion is almost as stupid as obedience. In either case you let yourself be defined by what they tell you to do."

Graham: "Do you have any opinions that you would be reluctant to express in front of a group of your peers? If the answer is 'no', you might want to stop and think about that. If everything you believe is something you're supposed to believe ... odds are you just think whatever you're told."

Graham: "Occasionally the stimulation of talking ... makes you think of new things, but in general this is not going to generate ideas as well as writing does."


Larry Page
Founder of Google along with Sergey Brin

Page: "Building things ... is a really interesting intellectual exercise."

Page: "I find that [pursuing truth] is more important than trying to control people."

Page: "Part of our brand is that we're pretty understated."

Page: "[When Sergey and I first met] I thought he was pretty obnoxious. He had really strong opinions about things, and I guess I did, too."

Page: "Google is actually a great argument for [doing] pure research [because] we didn't start out to do a search engine at all."

Jan Yarow: "Page is more interested ... in lots of weird side projects [whereas] Mark Zuckerberg is focused 100% on Facebook's core business, and has never seemed to waver from that."


Sergey Brin
Founder of Google along with Larry Page

Brin: "I never rooted for [my schools'] sports teams. I was never one of the crowd supporting something or not. I like to maintain my independence."

Brin: "Managing people, and being emotionally sensitive, and all the skills you learn in terms of communication and keeping people motivated - [for me] that has been a challenge."

[Interviewer: "Do you tell yourself 'I changed the world'?"]
Brin: "That would be a little bit self-centered."

John Battelle: "The Google founders are two swords sharpening one another."



Alan Greenspan
Chairman of the Federal Reserve

Greenspan: "I had always viewed myself as an observer of events, never as a partaker of them."


Albert Speer
Minister of Armaments in Nazi Germany

Speer: "There are things for which one is guilty even if one might offer excuses - simply because the crime is so overwhelming that by comparison any human excuse pales to insignificance."

Speer: "Technology [can be used] to multiply [genocide]. ... The more technological the world becomes, the more essential ... individual freedom and the self-awareness of the individual human being [will be] as a counterpoise to technology."

[wolfyx]

Hilary Putnam
Philosopher

Putnam: "[I] develop [through] self-criticism. ... I am always dissatisfied with something ... I have previously written."

Putnam: "I think Freud tried, as Marx tried, to make his discoveries a closed system of ideas. I don't believe in closed systems of ideas, but that is not to say that one cannot learn from Marx and Freud."

Putnam: "Wittgenstein's arguments often have a pedagogical character."

Putnam: "Kierkegaard [is] more of a poet than a philosopher."

Putnam's self-criticism is the same as that of Arendt: "The business of thinking undoes every morning..."


Martha Nussbaum
Philosopher

Nussbaum: "It is always possible to retreat into your own thoughts, to say, 'I will live for my own thoughts.'"

Nussbaum: "I think the prime concern of philosophers is that you can never trust your own plans because everything is so fragile. So how are you going to live?"

Nussbaum: "[Chomsky is] amongst those intellectuals who think that one should not criticize one's friends, that solidarity is more important than correctness. ... It is loathsome."

Nussbaum: "[Butler's writing style] bullies the reader. ... Since one cannot figure out what is going on, there must be something significant going on."


Sonia Sotomayor
U.S. Supreme Court Justice

Sotomayor: "There is [a] satisfying feeling that one gets when one has arrived at a ... penetrating analysis."


Maria Goeppert-Mayer
Physicist

Goeppert-Mayer: "Winning the [Nobel] prize wasn't half as exciting as doing the work."


Steven Levitt
Economist and author of 'Freakonomics'

Levitt: "I am one of the most closed-off people you'll ever find when it comes to emotional topics. I have never learned, or tried to learn how to express emotions. I'm not proud of this, it just is the truth."

Levitt: "I know I love my wife [but she] wishes I weren't such an emotional invalid."


Greg Mankiw
Economist and blogger

Mankiw: "In my view, it is best to consider all knowledge as tentative. The best scholars maintain an open-mindedness and humility about even their own core beliefs."

Mankiw: "The one defining characteristic of a good professor is to be open to all viewpoints."

Mankiw: "[In a debate, Krugman's] first inclination is to think that [his opponent] is either a liar or a fool. It's amazing to me that an academic would behave that way. ... No one has a monopoly on the truth."


Thomas Schelling
Economist and author of 'The Strategy of Conflict'

Michael Kinsley: "Schelling [strips] away irrelevant detail and exposes situations ranging from nuclear standoff ... to a family's decision about what to have for dinner as stark dramas of warring self-interest."


Elinor Ostrom
Economist

[Asked about her childhood visits to her aunt's home:]
Ostrom: "That was a wonderful experience for me, the discussions they had. It was a serious ... home, and the discussions were very serious."

Ostrom: "After designing multiple [grand] research projects ... it is time to try to put thoughts ... together [in a book] even though I am still not fully satisfied with my own understanding."

Jacqui Bauer: "Ostrom is ... unforgiving [of] herself. But she's endlessly forgiving of others."


Alan Sokal
Physicist, responsible for the Sokal hoax

Sokal: "I'm merely a physicist with an amateur interest in the philosophy of science and perhaps some modest skill at thinking clearly."

Sokal: "What precisely do I mean by 'silliness'? ... Meaningless or absurd statements, name-dropping, and the display of false erudition [as well as] sloppy thinking and poor philosophy."


David Keirsey
Psychologist and author of 'Please Understand Me II'

Keirsey: "It is to the Rational temperament that humanity owes its Directors, Inventors and Masterminds."

Keirsey: "If I do not want what you want, please try not to tell me that my want is wrong."

Keirsey: "If I ... fail to act, in the manner of your design for action, let me be."

Keirsey identifies himself as INTP.


Eric Berne
Psychoanalyst and author of 'Games People Play'

Berne: "Every once in a while I decide to get angry. It never pays off, and I can see really that what I've done is self-indulgence. It's sort of fun to get angry and it makes you feel that you're right. It never does any good. ... There is no reason for an adult to get angry."

Berne: "[My system] is a system for understanding people's behavior ... and for predicting people's behavior."


Steven E. Landsburg
Author of 'The Armchair Economist'

Landsburg: "In the absence of explicit contracts, people who lecture other people on their 'responsibilities' are almost always up to no good."


Kelley L. Ross
Philosopher

Ross: "My concern ... is to examine the extent to which arguments used by both sides of [a] debate are poor. ... Bad reasoning ... always serves to demonize ... and to further radicalize and irrationalize."

Ross: "Although [associates of Ayn Rand like] David Kelley, Leonard Peikoff, and others now try to develop her thought into a complete philosophical system, nothing can hide the relative shallowness of her knowledge."

Ross: "Anyone who cares to can still familiarize themselves with Jefferson's thinking and principles - as every American should in a day when Constitutional government has effectively been destroyed."

Ross identifies himself as INT.


D.T. Suzuki
Writer on Zen and author of 'An Introduction to Zen Buddhism'

Suzuki: "Not to be bound by rules, but to be creating one's own rules - this is the kind of life [I'm] trying to have us live."

Suzuki: "We cannot put a stop to ... our philosophical inquiries any more than to our breathing."

Suzuki: "Oscar Wilde seems always posing or striving for an effect; he may be a great artist, but there is something ... that turns me away from him."


Fyodor Stcherbatsky
Philologist and author of 'Buddhist Logic'

Stcherbatsky: "The new born child and the animals are endowed with sensation and instinct ... but they do not possess discursive inference."

Stcherbatsky: "[In my book I discuss] logic [and] discursive thought [and] leave out instinct."


Steve Hagen
Zen master and author of 'Buddhism: Plain and Simple', student of Dainin Katagiri

Hagen: "We [should have] an open and inquiring frame of mind."

Hagen: "We should always be prepared to take another look at what we believe and begin to doubt it."

Hagen: "We must doubt and doubt again - doubt to the very bottom, to the ground, and then, doubt the ground itself."

Hagen: "Even in the simple statement 'I think,' Descartes had already ... assumed the existence of a self. ... Descartes clearly did not doubt enough."


Judith Rich Harris
Psychologist and author of 'The Nurture Assumption'

Harris: "What I learned about developmental psychology and social psychology I learned on my own."

Harris: "During the years I was writing psychology textbooks, I believed the evidence [for nurture's effect on children] too. But then I looked at it more closely and to my considerable surprise it fell apart in my hands. The evidence ... does not prove what it appears to prove."

Steven Pinker: "[Harris' contribution] was a devastating methodological critique that ... sent shockwaves throughout the academic community."


Anna Politkovskaya
Journalist and human rights activist

Politkovskaya: "What am I guilty of? I have merely reported what I witnessed, nothing but the truth."

Politkovskaya: "I have never sought my present pariah status. ... I am no political infighter."

[On being sent to meet with hostage takers:]
Politkovskaya: "As they had chosen me, I couldn't refuse [but] I am a very poor negotiator. I had no idea what to say [and] I'm not convinced that [sending me was] in any way effective."


Flemming Rose
Newspaper editor who solicited the Muhammad cartoons

Rose: "Doubt [is] the starting point of exploration and understanding of reality; doubt [is] the occasion for curiosity and the formulation of critical questions."

Rose: "Censoring the cartoons is very discriminating against Muslims because [it is] in fact saying, 'OK, we understand that you are so wild and uncivilized that we apply a different standard to you.' ... If I were a Muslim I'd be very offended."

Rose: "[In the early 1930s] the Nazis were repeatedly arrested on the grounds of hate speech legislation. Hate speech laws proved a boon to Hitler."


Linus Torvalds
Creator of Linux

Torvalds: "I'm really happy that I'm not a traditional manager. I don't have to manage logistics and people. I can worry purely about the technical side."

Torvalds: "I have a really hard time making any judgment."

Torvalds: "Lots of people have ideas. It's actually finishing them [that matters]."

Torvalds: "[I appreciate] Richard Dawkins for being such an outspoken critic of muddled thinking and anti-scientific thought."


Jürgen Habermas
Philosopher

Habermas: "In discourse, the unforced force of the better argument prevails."

Habermas: "When I dined with Foucault I had expected to meet a charlatan, but the man was in fact something entirely different - he was a philosopher!"


Marie-Louise von Franz
Psychologist and author, student of Jung

Von Franz: "My God, these Feeling types! ... Sensitive people are just tyrannical people - everybody else has to adapt to them."

Von Franz: "An extravert's [introspection] is especially genuine and and especially pure and deep. Extraverts are often so proud of this that they boast loudly about what great introverts they are. They try to make it a feather in their cap - which is [again] quite extraverted."

Von Franz identified herself as I-TP.

[Melchizedek]

Okay, good. I just wanted to confirm that you don't know what you're talking about.

[wolfyx]

	Originally Posted by Melchizedek To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Okay, good. I just wanted to confirm that you don't know what you're talking about.

Logically defend your statement!
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[anticlimatic]

	Originally Posted by Tactical Panda To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	They don't need to be fought, just pointed out as being idiots as you casually pass by if you feel inclined. Sometimes rather indirectly.

...most of the time completely indirectly. Typically, if the person in question is AWARE AT ALL that they are being mocked or questioned, the mission is considered failed.

All of the INTJs I know love doing this kind of sarcastic smarmy shit to people they think are 'stupid.' Out of curiosity, why? What good does it do?

Does it communicate anything to them? No.
Does it affect anything at all? No.
Does it make you...I don't know...feel better about yourselves somehow? How/why?

[Ghostwheel]

Originally Posted by wolfyx To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Immanuel Kant Philosopher Kant: "There is nothing higher than reason." Kant: "A [monarch] may evaluate his own governance. He can do this when ... he lays upon himself the reproach 'the Ruler is not above the Rules.'" Kant: "I am an investigator by inclination. I feel a great thirst for knowledge." Kelley L. Ross: "[Kant] wishes to construe reason as no more than the formal rules that become evident in logic." Hannah Arendt: "Kant ... was much bothered by the common opinion that philosophy is only for the few ... because of this opinion's moral implications." Jung identifies Kant as INTP. Kant's notion of the ruler's discretion is the opposite of that of Nixon: "When the president does it, that means that it is not illegal."

Can't say I agree with all your choices, but as someone who has read the Critique of Pure Reason, I find Kant's writing to be extremely INTP-ish.

Beyond that, I honestly don't know why we're having an INTJ vs INTP civil war here.

I always thought the big bout was Intuitors vs Sensors!
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[Amphorian]

	Originally Posted by wolfyx To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Logically defend your statement! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

First you need to logically defend your position. The burden of proof is on the individual that stakes the claim. You need to prove that you understand the Jungian cognitive functions and the branches of personality theories that developed from them (MBTI, Keirsey, etc.)

So far you've demonstrated you do not understand the MBTI, especially in the fact you believe particular types (mainly introverts and intuitives) are superior in their ability to navigate and understand the world (physical and of the conscious mind). All type of thoughts processes are necessary for survival and advancement of humanity. And I'm not talking just MBTI at this point. No one can ever be fully a hundred percent objective about the knowledge they've obtained because they'll never possess all knowledge.

Secondly, INTPs are limited in their thought just like everyone else because of their thought process. INTPs, being an introverted thinker first and foremost, are limited in their understanding of holistic and organic systems and processes. Ti doms (myself included) can have an intellectual understanding of such systems and processes, but we'll never fully appreciate and instinctively understand them like Fi and Fe users do. We're like fish out of water in regards to those type of systems and processes. With that said, a Ti-dom's true understanding will always be limited. We'll always be outside observers looking in with some areas of understanding.

Third and finally, posting a list of individuals you believe to be INTP doesn't cut it as empirical evidence. Including if you give a few quotes and personality theorist gurus' opinions. You haven't linked to any objective sources. Nor have you established your own personal argument in regards to these individuals' behaviors, cognitive processes, motivations, and interaction styles. No one can take you seriously until you give a well thought out argument. Even then, you must take your own argument with a grain of salt when typing other individuals, especially dead ones.

Personality theory doesn't define everything about an individual. Personality theories are based on archetypes and general classifications. Not all INTPs are genius. While there are sensors and feelers out there that are genius and or innovators. Not every INTP is perfect with math, grammar, philosophy, ethics, science and so forth.

INTPs' strengths lie in the ability to navigate the endless possibilities of the systematic and mechanical of the abstract and theoretical. Because of that, they're more likely to come up with ideas that seem like that have no physical grounding or application. INTPs intellect can go unappreciated and or not even understood, because many types, including NJs seek out practical applications for the physical world (considering out day to day business operates in such conditions). However, most types can understand INTPs. The case is usually people don't appreciate the INTP thought process because they find the musing or ideas not worth the time to discuss.

It is true there are many people that are ignorant, and or arrogant especially in regards to critical thinking and comprehension. But such does not stem from their cognitive functions, their base personality or potential. Such has to do with poor parenting, lack of proper education, etc.

Other types are able to explore the areas that INTPs can't fully explore or appreciate. And their findings in those areas are just as important as INTPs findings and perspectives about the world and universe at large.

[Aeon]

Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Incase you guys haven't noticed yet... To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Just sayin... you know... that I got 5:1 odds in favor of the OP starting this thread precisely becasue he knew he would get to talk mad shit once it was undeniably over-ripe with analogs to the defacto standard "I wonder why INTJs are so much more awesome that the other types..." INTJf thread template. At least I know thats the reason that I would have had for posting it.

I don't really want to be drawn into this mess but for the record, I'm with you on this.

Of course there's always a chance that this is just another drop of lunacy in the ocean of the interwebs. But if I were the OP, damn, I'd be tickled pink at the number of people up in arms against something so inflammatory and ridiculous.

[Tactical Panda]

	Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Way too Fe, dude. Way too Fe. Seriously. You're starting to sound like an INFP, or an INTP with highly-developed Fe. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

INFPs don't use Fe in their main four. Wouldn't they prefer to use Fi?

Originally Posted by wolfyx To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Albert Speer Minister of Armaments in Nazi Germany Speer: "There are things for which one is guilty even if one might offer excuses - simply because the crime is so overwhelming that by comparison any human excuse pales to insignificance." Speer: "Technology [can be used] to multiply [genocide]. ... The more technological the world becomes, the more essential ... individual freedom and the self-awareness of the individual human being [will be] as a counterpoise to technology."

Speer: "In all my activities as Armament Minister I never once visited a labor camp, and cannot, therefore, give any information about them. "

Speer: "I would rather not tell you here things which every German has at heart."

Speer: "“It is clear that a worker who has not enough food cannot achieve a good work output. I already said yesterday that every head of a plant, and I too at the top, was naturally interested in having well-fed and satisfied workers, because badly fed, dissatisfied workers make more mistakes and produce poor results.”"

Speer: "“No doubt concentration camps were a means, a menace used to keep order.”"

Speer: "“I assert that a great number of the foreign workers in our country did their work quite voluntarily once they had come to Germany.”"

Why I picked the Nazi... sigh.

Speer was a man who, while knowing what he could do, more importantly knew what he couldn't do. His vision and commitment was strong enough to shape his trial - by self-analysis of what could have been and thus what fell into his responsibility.

He kept secrets, and spoke of ends and means under his own name without hiding behind the authorities and books of others.

I contest Speer because I have researched him, and know little of the others compared to him. In other words...

Pick the first quote I selected of Speer for my reasoning on the matter.

Also, in another time and place I would support his 'Ruin Value' theory of architecture. Perhaps in a world without Nazis.

Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

...most of the time completely indirectly. Typically, if the person in question is AWARE AT ALL that they are being mocked or questioned, the mission is considered failed. All of the INTJs I know love doing this kind of sarcastic smarmy shit to people they think are 'stupid.' Out of curiosity, why? What good does it do? Does it communicate anything to them? No. Does it affect anything at all? No. Does it make you...I don't know...feel better about yourselves somehow? How/why?

A smarmy person deserves a smarmy return.

An idiot deserves an idiotic response.

We return as a reflex action - one dollar matched for one dollar, unless the matter is worth actually investing our concern with. Then we turn autopilot mental reflex off.

It's that simple. You give a dollar you get what you pay for - expecting more for your buck by virtue of a pathetic attempt is wishful thinking some of us are happy to crush.

It perpetuates an option being signalled as available to you: take up effective self improvement or if you have no excuse you get no sympathy. Here is no free food, so it may be best to learn to fish. It is a tough take on some old, probably rationally motivated wisdom.

That you know smarmy INTJs, if they are actual INTJs and are not a mistype, may say something about the company they keep or perhaps even about you. It is a possibility, but merely a possibility.

[anticlimatic]

	Originally Posted by Tactical Panda To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A smarmy person deserves a smarmy return. An idiot deserves an idiotic response.

I was actually complaining about INTJs doing the exact opposite of what you advise: giving idiots smarmy responses, and giving smarmy folks idiotic responses (the latter not so much an INTJ thing-- 'idiotic responses' don't seem to be within their capacity, at least in their minds).

What I'm talking about is the sarcastic passive-aggressive comment to the idiot, wherein only they (the INTJ making the comment), and folks who are like-minded, are even aware that they are being sarcastic, and mocking the idiot. The idiot remains oblivious. Why keep the idiot oblivious, isn't that the whole constructive point of mockery? He's not just going to suddenly grow Ni wings on the fly, and read all the way into your clever little jab there.

I'm not accusing you of doing this by the way (I have actually observed that you tend to lean away from this practice fairly hard), but it is a pattern I have noticed in most of my INTJ peers.

[Oros Ull]

Ugh no…

I know a lot of INTPs and while they are very dedicated and capable in their professions and fields of interest they are pretty much useless for anything else. Especially when it comes to the human equation which is typically met by resentment, anger and misanthropy.

[Tactical Panda]

Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I was actually complaining about INTJs doing the exact opposite of what you advise: giving idiots smarmy responses, and giving smarmy folks idiotic responses (the latter not so much an INTJ thing-- 'idiotic responses' don't seem to be within their capacity, at least in their minds). What I'm talking about is the sarcastic passive-aggressive comment to the idiot, wherein only they (the INTJ making the comment), and folks who are like-minded, are even aware that they are being sarcastic, and mocking the idiot. The idiot remains oblivious. Why keep the idiot oblivious, isn't that the whole constructive point of mockery? He's not just going to suddenly grow Ni wings on the fly, and read all the way into your clever little jab there. I'm not accusing you of doing this by the way (I have actually observed that you tend to lean away from this practice fairly hard), but it is a pattern I have noticed in most of my INTJ peers.

What do smarmy responses look like and what do idiotic responses look like? You may be right... or may not be. I haven't given the issue of smarm a lot of thought. It sorts of feels like telling your knee to move a bit forward, or wiggling your chin. It seems like a mundane sort of day to day reaction.