[Apex]

I am really bewildered in regards to my MBTI type I really want to pin point it, I don't like being on the fence. Whenever I take the MBTI test, I usually score INTP, but I relate to INTJ's more, so I was thinking perhaps I'm just a Lazy INTJ, similar to what House is presumed to be. For the most part I resemble INTJ's more but have INTP tendencies. What do you guys think? Is a Lazy INTJ even possible or should just be called INTP?

[jndiii]

I'm not sure how House is or is not a lazy INTJ (never seen the show), but yes, there are lots of lazy INTJs out there. (I'm one.)

Part of the problem is that the J/P dichotomy in MBTI tends to make more sense for the Sensing types (no pun intended), because SJs tend to very concretely organize their world, while other types (SPs, NPs, NJs) do not.

INTJs organize their ideas and their plans, but tend to let concrete aspects slide unless they care about them. If I am having guests over, then yes, I make sure my living room is clean and presentable. I also plan to make sure I have food, a clean bathroom, and other such amenities, because not having such preparations tends to cause problems (and not all such problems are immediately visible). But if I plan to have no guests, and am living mostly as a hermit, my organization mostly applies to doing my job and making sure I'm staying within my budget and taking care of minimal cleaning (laundry, dishes, etc.), but not everything.

Also, there is a tendency of INTJs to not realize how nitpicky they really are in some areas until they see other types' habits. When I shared an apartment with an INTP, I'd generally keep my stuff from cluttering the common areas (kitchen, living room), but he'd just pile his stuff wherever. I moved out about 2 months before he did, cleaning up my stuff, and I said he could have the whole deposit back if he wanted; instead, he left a pile of trash and not only forfeited the deposit, but incurred even more cleanup charges, incidentally getting a collection agency on my ass for his messiness. (He took care of it; he's not that irresponsible. But he was willing to try for the solution that he thought he could get away with, because, after all, he said, "You never get the deposit back anyway, even after cleaning the heck out of the place.")

[anticlimatic]

INTJs and INTPs have similar looking letters, but are worlds apart. All of the functions, which are the fundamentals of MBTI, are inverted between the two. Study up on them just a tiny bit, and the answer may seem self evident.

INTJ: introverted intuition, extroverted thinking, introverted feeling, extroverted sensing
INTP: introverted thinking, extroverted intuition, introverted sensing, extroverted feeling

[CrudeHypothesis]

Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

INTJs and INTPs have similar looking letters, but are worlds apart. All of the functions, which are the fundamentals of MBTI, are inverted between the two. Study up on them just a tiny bit, and the answer may seem self evident. INTJ: introverted intuition, extroverted thinking, introverted feeling, extroverted sensing INTP: introverted thinking, extroverted intuition, introverted sensing, extroverted feeling

Even if they are worlds apart, there is evidence to suggest that the next two functions to develop are the primary and auxiliary functions in the opposite orientation to their prefered. However, some say that people don't have any functions in the oposite orientation, and that using them as so drains the fuck out of them, so the previous statement seems questionable.

The surest route to identifying the orientation of the primary function is through understanding the inferior function. However, we are not consciously aware of it, so asking yourself questions about it is practically useless. You'll have to get someone else to describe to you what your behavior is like when you're stressed.

[anticlimatic]

	Originally Posted by CrudeHypothesis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	However, we are not consciously aware of it, so asking yourself questions about it is practically useless. You'll have to get someone else to describe to you what your behavior is like when you're stressed.

Another large difference between INTPs and INTJs is that INTPs are much more "self-aware," or "self-conscious." Ti users, particularly with a Si function, have a tendency to know what their driving motivations are fairly accurately. I'd say that if you weren't sure, and felt more of a mystery to yourself, then Ti/Si really wasn't your thing...but at the same time general indecisiveness is a prevalent INTP trait, so who can tell? Personally, I think self awareness is the root certainty from which other uncertainties arise.

[Tactical Panda]

	Originally Posted by Apex To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I really want to pin point it, I don't like being on the fence.

Why do you want that?

[Lilie]

	Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Another large difference between INTPs and INTJs is that INTPs are much more "self-aware," or "self-conscious." Ti users, particularly with a Si function, have a tendency to know what their driving motivations are fairly accurately.

I'd say the opposite based on observing INTPs in the wild. Or maybe they do know, but they change their minds a lot? Or don't act on their motivations consistently? They're always driving all over the place and the motivation appears random to an observer.

[jndiii]

Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Another large difference between INTPs and INTJs is that INTPs are much more "self-aware," or "self-conscious." Ti users, particularly with a Si function, have a tendency to know what their driving motivations are fairly accurately. I'd say that if you weren't sure, and felt more of a mystery to yourself, then Ti/Si really wasn't your thing...but at the same time general indecisiveness is a prevalent INTP trait, so who can tell? Personally, I think self awareness is the root certainty from which other uncertainties arise.

"Self-awareness" has little to do with MBTI type, and is a far more complicated matter than one might realize. The reality is that the various personality types are "differently aware". This often manifests, especially in INTPs and INTJs, as the belief that others are stupid/ignorant/unaware, even as oneself is utterly ignorant of one's lack of awareness, of one's blind spots.

Yes, one sees things that others do not, but one misses things that are plainly obvious to most others. The particular things these might be differ from type to type, and don't fall clearly into categories of "self-awareness" or otherwise.

[reckful]

@OP —

Contrary to the impression you might otherwise get from
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and some of his fellow cognitive function aficionados on internet forums, the mainstream MBTI has been centered around the four dichotomies (i.e., E/I, S/N, T/F and J/P) since the beginning, and remains dichotomy-centric in its relatively recent "Step II" version — the manual for which, in a change from previous MBTI manuals, apparently
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(If you're feeling dweebish, you can read more about the MBTI's dichotomy-based approach in
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and
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) In fact, in a couple of relatively recent articles in the journal published by the owners of the MBTI (
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), James Reynierse has pointed out the dearth of empirical support for the cognitive functions and referred to them as a "category mistake."

For input from me on J/P and related issues (including whether you can be an INTx) and a roundup of online INTJ and INTP profiles, see
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and the posts it links to.

[anticlimatic]

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes, one sees things that others do not, but one misses things that are plainly obvious to most others. The particular things these might be differ from type to type, and don't fall clearly into categories of "self-awareness" or otherwise.

I hear your lecture and I concur for the most part. However blind I may to be m̶o̶s̶t̶ some things, there is but one thing in which I have a much clearer understanding than anyone else has, or could have, and that is myself. Maybe it's not an INTP thing, and maybe it's just me, but please allow me to pull some (possibly) plausible logic for it out of my ass, on the fly here:

Intuition, in my experience, is an engine of mistakes..and thinking is an engine of structure and stacking. INTJs, which lead with Ni, make all of their mistakes in their own heads, and typically make much fewer of them with Te in the real world-- therefore dodging most external checks and balances for said mistakes, beyond their own capacity to correct them themselves (and most of the time simply dropping them, and moving on is sufficient). INTPs on the other hand, make their mistakes externally with Ne, and then sort the consequences and very tangible results from these mistakes out with Ti, first and foremost. As we learn most about ourselves from our mistakes, I think this gives INTPs, or at least just me, a painfully accurate self-depiction-- at the genuine cost of actually knowing just how good, bad, weak, or strong we really are. Of course anyone has the capacity to shove their heads up their asses and flee from reality, I just think that INTPs have a natural set of tools to not do this. Or maybe do it, and do it a bit too well.

	Originally Posted by Lilie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'd say the opposite based on observing INTPs in the wild. Or maybe they do know, but they change their minds a lot? Or don't act on their motivations consistently? They're always driving all over the place and the motivation appears random to an observer.

Knowing our motivations means knowing how apt they are to change radically. I think this is why you see a lot of commitment dodging from INTPs. That they are able to "drive all over the place" is indicative of a level of comfort for their fluctuating motivations, I think. Someone who trusts themselves less is more likely to "stay the course" regardless of how much they feel like ditching it.

....maybe. No idea, really.

[jndiii]

Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I hear your lecture and I concur for the most part. However blind I may to be m̶o̶s̶t̶ some things, there is but one thing in which I have a much clearer understanding than anyone else has, or could have, and that is myself. Maybe it's not an INTP thing, and maybe it's just me, but please allow me to pull some (possibly) plausible logic for it out of my ass, on the fly here: Intuition, in my experience, is an engine of mistakes..and thinking is an engine of structure and stacking. INTJs, which lead with Ni, make all of their mistakes in their own heads, and typically make much fewer of them with Te in the real world-- therefore dodging most external checks and balances for said mistakes, beyond their own capacity to correct them themselves (and most of the time simply dropping them, and moving on is sufficient). INTPs on the other hand, make their mistakes externally with Ne, and then sort the consequences and very tangible results from these mistakes out with Ti, first and foremost. As we learn most about ourselves from our mistakes, I think this gives INTPs, or at least just me, a painfully accurate self-depiction-- at the genuine cost of actually knowing just how good, bad, weak, or strong we really are. Of course anyone has the capacity to shove their heads up their asses and flee from reality, I just think that INTPs have a natural set of tools to not do this. Or maybe do it, and do it a bit too well.

My comments were not inspired by any desire to lecture, but based on my current studies of Enneagram typology. The main thing to recognize about Enneagram is that it types you by your blind spots, your lack of awareness, of how you think you are handling things well when you really aren't. 1s think they're fixing the problems they see, 2s think they're helping others, 3s think they're being successful, 4s think they're extremely self-aware (!), 5s think they're mastering something worthy of mastery, 6s think they're trusting in something trustworthy, 7s think they're new plans/ideas will solve their current problems, 8s think that confronting anything that gets in their way will resolve things, 9s think that avoiding problems will solve them. And it's not "think" so much as an instinctual reaction to the world: one is doing it and doesn't realize it (if at all) until later.

All of that is independent of MBTI type, though there are definitely correlations with respect to which types use which strategies.

As for your interpretation of Ti-Ne being more self aware vs Ni-Te, Te is just as aware of the real world as Ne, if not more so. Ni and Te are in a continual feedback loop of error-checking. The only difference is that Te sounds more conclusive than Ne, even though both are exploring the same world and coming up with similar conclusions. Note that INTJ-INTP arguments tend to be about how to reach conclusions, not about the typical conclusions reached.

[JYFly]

Socionics INTj strikes me as an organized INTP while their INTp looks like a lazy INTJ.

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[anticlimatic]

Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

As for your interpretation of Ti-Ne being more self aware vs Ni-Te, Te is just as aware of the real world as Ne, if not more so. Ni and Te are in a continual feedback loop of error-checking. The only difference is that Te sounds more conclusive than Ne, even though both are exploring the same world and coming up with similar conclusions. Note that INTJ-INTP arguments tend to be about how to reach conclusions, not about the typical conclusions reached.

Took the Enneagram test, and scored a 5 (5w6 taking wings into account, whatever that means). Interesting system, I'll have to investigate further...some certainly seem better than others, though I probably just don't know enough about it yet.

I think Te is indeed more aware of the true nature of the world than Ne, which might contribute to something I have noticed, but have no actual means of backing-- that INTJs seem to know what they want, but not so much why they want it...where INTPs seem to know why they want things, but not so much what it is exactly that they want. Oddly, the two seem mutually exclusive, which seems impossible or at the very least ironic. To use my INTJ room mate again as an example, he knows just what he wants physically from the opposite sex-- big butts, and big busts-- and he'll turn down any who don't meet those qualifications, but he doesn't know why those are his preferences, and probably doesn't much care. Myself, I know exactly why I like what I like about women, but the information does nothing to narrow my focus. I like things that are round and soft because they contrast all the prickly wrestling boys I grew up with...but as 'round and soft' is so vague, yet so specific, I'm unable to discriminate farther down the line.

[jndiii]

Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Took the Enneagram test, and scored a 5 (5w6 taking wings into account, whatever that means). Interesting system, I'll have to investigate further...some certainly seem better than others, though I probably just don't know enough about it yet. I think Te is indeed more aware of the true nature of the world than Ne, which might contribute to something I have noticed, but have no actual means of backing-- that INTJs seem to know what they want, but not so much why they want it...where INTPs seem to know why they want things, but not so much what it is exactly that they want. Oddly, the two seem mutually exclusive, which seems impossible or at the very least ironic. To use my INTJ room mate again as an example, he knows just what he wants physically from the opposite sex-- big butts, and big busts-- and he'll turn down any who don't meet those qualifications, but he doesn't know why those are his preferences, and probably doesn't much care. Myself, I know exactly why I like what I like about women, but the information does nothing to narrow my focus. I like things that are round and soft because they contrast all the prickly wrestling boys I grew up with...but as 'round and soft' is so vague, yet so specific, I'm unable to discriminate farther down the line.

I see what you're getting at, and that's an interesting perspective.

A worthwhile possibility to consider is dominant judging vs dominant perceiving. Find some ENTP (dominant perceiving - Ne), and ENTJ (dominant judging - Te) examples and compare/contrast with INTP (dominant judging - Ti) and INTJ (dominant perceiving - Ni). Your comments are very similar to comments I've read with respect to INFPs and ENTJs, as compared to ENFPs and INTJs, where the dominant perceivers aren't thinking in terms of "why" something is true (a conclusion based on a judgment), but instead are thinking of "what is true" (a conclusion based on perceiving).

In your example, the parallel I see is that you, the INTP, are very concerned with the "why", why you like what you like and so on, and everything follows from that "why". For INTJs (and ENFPs), the concern is with "what" is true: I know that an apple is red because I perceive it to be so, I know that I like girls because I perceive it to be true. I don't need to know why the apple is red or why I like girls.

Another possibility is that Ti tends to "rationalize" things (and I mean this in a technical, not a derogatory, way), as opposed to Fi which treats feelings as facts. For Fi, it's "I like" or "I don't like" or "I don't care either way," but Fi resists thoughts such as "I should like" or "I should not like" or "the reason I feel this way is that ..." If it's a Ti vs Fi thing, it wouldn't imply that Fi lacks self-awareness (try running that by a type 4 IxFP sometime!), but rather that the manner in which Fi keeps track of self awareness isn't as explicit as the Ti version. Fi can fully understand one's own state of being yet be unable to translate it (well) into something that others can understand.

[passenger]

	Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Another large difference between INTPs and INTJs is that INTPs are much more "self-aware," or "self-conscious." Ti users, particularly with a Si function, have a tendency to know what their driving motivations are fairly accurately.

Disagree. The Fi of the INTJ also makes them self-aware.

[Tejeira]

	Originally Posted by passenger To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Disagree. The Fi of the INTJ also makes them self-aware.

I would agree. From what I've seen INTJ are more self aware. Of course age could have an impact. But the INTJ I have known seemed more focused and "on top of it" than the INTP I've known, including being aware of how they are coming across, and is it helping them reach their goals?

[anticlimatic]

Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I see what you're getting at, and that's an interesting perspective. A worthwhile possibility to consider is dominant judging vs dominant perceiving. Find some ENTP (dominant perceiving - Ne), and ENTJ (dominant judging - Te) examples and compare/contrast with INTP (dominant judging - Ti) and INTJ (dominant perceiving - Ni). Your comments are very similar to comments I've read with respect to INFPs and ENTJs, as compared to ENFPs and INTJs, where the dominant perceivers aren't thinking in terms of "why" something is true (a conclusion based on a judgment), but instead are thinking of "what is true" (a conclusion based on perceiving). In your example, the parallel I see is that you, the INTP, are very concerned with the "why", why you like what you like and so on, and everything follows from that "why". For INTJs (and ENFPs), the concern is with "what" is true: I know that an apple is red because I perceive it to be so, I know that I like girls because I perceive it to be true. I don't need to know why the apple is red or why I like girls. Another possibility is that Ti tends to "rationalize" things (and I mean this in a technical, not a derogatory, way), as opposed to Fi which treats feelings as facts. For Fi, it's "I like" or "I don't like" or "I don't care either way," but Fi resists thoughts such as "I should like" or "I should not like" or "the reason I feel this way is that ..." If it's a Ti vs Fi thing, it wouldn't imply that Fi lacks self-awareness (try running that by a type 4 IxFP sometime!), but rather that the manner in which Fi keeps track of self awareness isn't as explicit as the Ti version. Fi can fully understand one's own state of being yet be unable to translate it (well) into something that others can understand.

Fascinating.

To bring this around, and back to where we began with it-- how can we bridge what we've discussed here with the specific ability to perceive MBTI or the various Jung functions, compare them to what we know or think we know about ourselves, and identify the ones that most adequately represent us? How do INTJs and INTPs each do this, and what are the specific advantages and disadvantages for each method of self perception?

The Q&A tests seem like an adequate means for INTJs to type themselves, as long as the semantics of the questions are sound. From what you mention, each question would pass through a Ni/Fi check, and would be answered accurately based on how they feel, so long as Ni didn't accidentally lose the direct semantic intent, if Fi wasn't blindly compensating for something without their realizing, or if Te applies external standards and skews the accuracy of internal processes. An INTP would watch each question pass through a Ti/Si check, and answer each question accurately based on logged behavior (Si), so long as Ti doesn't completely miss the point of a specific question, if Si has not been compromised by memory loss or other influence, or if Ne doesn't answer the question too quickly, and accidentally exaggerate in one direction or the other.

Assuming both are adequate enough to produce some kind of relatively accurate MBTI, however loose (as in the case of the OP), the next step (for me) would be to study the functions, absorb their meanings, and "try them on," through super-imposing them on what I know of myself, to see which fit. This very practice itself might be a dominant judging function practice, but for now I'll assume it's something we're both going to try.

I speculate an INTJ would intuit the meanings of the various functions on the functions own terms (Ni/Te), and then yes/no-Fi to themselves whether or not the functions applied, or didn't apply, to them. An INTP would assume literal truth of the various functions while reading, whilst simultaneously intuiting how that literal truth could branch out into avenues beyond the context of simple definition (Ti/Ne), and compare such branches with Si to see what fits past behavior, and the individual.

Ni/Te and Ti/Ne seem very similar in their strengths and weaknesses, each with overlapping possible failings that provide neither with any significant advantage to accurate understanding. The hang up and distinction seems to be Si vs Fi...which I'm still contemplating.

[jndiii]

Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Fascinating. To bring this around, and back to where we began with it-- how can we bridge what we've discussed here with the specific ability to perceive MBTI or the various Jung functions, compare them to what we know or think we know about ourselves, and identify the ones that most adequately represent us? How do INTJs and INTPs each do this, and what are the specific advantages and disadvantages for each method of self perception? The Q&A tests seem like an adequate means for INTJs to type themselves, as long as the semantics of the questions are sound. From what you mention, each question would pass through a Ni/Fi check, and would be answered accurately based on how they feel, so long as Ni didn't accidentally lose the direct semantic intent, if Fi wasn't blindly compensating for something without their realizing, or if Te applies external standards and skews the accuracy of internal processes. An INTP would watch each question pass through a Ti/Si check, and answer each question accurately based on logged behavior (Si), so long as Ti doesn't completely miss the point of a specific question, if Si has not been compromised by memory loss or other influence, or if Ne doesn't answer the question too quickly, and accidentally exaggerate in one direction or the other.

Personally, I found the tests to be inadequate. It took an ENFP professional psychologist (friend, not my therapist) typing me as INTJ to make me look into the topic again about 10 years after a test typed me as ISTJ. The ISTJ result led me to believe MBTI was just hogwash.

Part of the problem is that they're inevitably talking about things in a new language. They phrase things in stupid ways, like, "Which is better, abstract thought or explicit detail?" Yes, that'll get the S-types sorted out, and the especially theoretical INTPs sorted out, but INTJs will tend to split on this question. They're as much about having detail as they are about understanding theory, because both are needed to fully understand things. Without enough details, there isn't enough data to specify which abstract theory is true. MBTI step II resolves this a bit, because INTJs tend to answer the questions in specific ways, and their borderline S/N, where it exists, tends to break the same way on the same questions each time. (Similarly, the J/P axis tends to break in particular ways, too.)

Assuming both are adequate enough to produce some kind of relatively accurate MBTI, however loose (as in the case of the OP), the next step (for me) would be to study the functions, absorb their meanings, and "try them on," through super-imposing them on what I know of myself, to see which fit. This very practice itself might be a dominant judging function practice, but for now I'll assume it's something we're both going to try. I speculate an INTJ would intuit the meanings of the various functions on the functions own terms (Ni/Te), and then yes/no-Fi to themselves whether or not the functions applied, or didn't apply, to them. An INTP would assume literal truth of the various functions while reading, whilst simultaneously intuiting how that literal truth could branch out into avenues beyond the context of simple definition (Ti/Ne), and compare such branches with Si to see what fits past behavior, and the individual.

It took me a long while to really figure out Ni, Se, Si and Ne: I really only saw N vs S, where "Ne" was really "N with Ti or Fi", and "Ni" was really "N with Te or Fe". Even Ti vs Te was rather difficult for me to figure out: there's a reason that INTJ and INTP are only one letter apart. It's easy to see the Te/Ti differences between an ENTJ and an INTP or ESTJ and ISTP, but when the Te is auxiliary, the INTJ's Ni looks and sounds a lot like Ti. What was useful for me to differentiate the two, at first, was that Ti goes with Fe, and Te goes with Fi: the emotional tones of each are much easier to distinguish than the logical-thinking characteristics.

	Ni/Te and Ti/Ne seem very similar in their strengths and weaknesses, each with overlapping possible failings that provide neither with any significant advantage to accurate understanding. The hang up and distinction seems to be Si vs Fi...which I'm still contemplating.

Yes, I think there's something to that. Understanding the tertiary is especially useful for understanding most types, in particular their weaknesses. Each type tends to idolize or idealize its tertiary, even as it fails to use it as an aux or dom would: consider the ENFP using Te to organize or the INFJ applying strict logic. (I mean "strict logic" in a very strict sense - INFJs are often incredibly smart, but their correct conclusions are almost always intuitive in nature. An answer as to "feel right" as well as be logical/reasonable.)

INTJs tend to overvalue Fi once they take note of it at all. "Here's how to take care of all those pesky emotional issues, right?" Of course, they never quite notice that it's still driving them subconsciously, nor do they notice how emotionally attached they are to their Ni/Te priorities. (Or perhaps "values-attached" is a better phrase. It doesn't feel emotional.)

INTPs tend to overvalue Si, once they're aware of it. "Look, all I have to do to make sense of my ideas and thoughts is to organize them in this huge static framework, and then I'll always be objectively correct!" (I'm deliberately phrasing that sentence as a weakness, mind you, not as a particular insult.) Of course, the INTP never quite realizes the degree to which "what everyone else thinks" subconsciously influences one's own thoughts, because of this subconscious desire to figure out how one's thoughts fit into the overall framework.

[scorpiomover]

	Originally Posted by Tejeira To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I would agree. From what I've seen INTJ are more self aware. Of course age could have an impact. But the INTJ I have known seemed more focused and "on top of it" than the INTP I've known, including being aware of how they are coming across, and is it helping them reach their goals?

INTPs are very self-aware, in a very different way to INTJs.

INTJs have Te and Fi. Their Fi gives them real focus on their goals, and their Te gives them the ability to give rational explanations that others would accept, as to why their Ni theories would make sense.

INTPs have Ti and Fe. Our Ti gives up practical awareness of what we can realistically hope to achieve. Our Fe gives us the emotional awareness of what will make others feel comfortable with our results. We just carry on ahead, without any clear goals, or any explanations that others would accept, in the knowledge that our Ti will keep us directed towards the achievable, and with the certainty that our results will be guided by Fe, to achieve results that others will be very happy with. As a consequence, as we are pursuing our goals, we seem rather undirected and aimless. But by the time we've reached the end, our goals are usually achieved, and everyone is very surprised to find that they are very happy with the results, and honestly then admit that our misdirections were really in everyone's benefit, but they simply didn't see it at the time. We're more like the tortoise than the hare.

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	INTJs tend to overvalue Fi once they take note of it at all. "Here's how to take care of all those pesky emotional issues, right?" Of course, they never quite notice that it's still driving them subconsciously, nor do they notice how emotionally attached they are to their Ni/Te priorities. (Or perhaps "values-attached" is a better phrase. It doesn't feel emotional.)

Something that I've observed about INTJs, is that their ideas seem to offer greater advantages to them. They strike me as very ambitious by nature.

Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

INTPs tend to overvalue Si, once they're aware of it. "Look, all I have to do to make sense of my ideas and thoughts is to organize them in this huge static framework, and then I'll always be objectively correct!" (I'm deliberately phrasing that sentence as a weakness, mind you, not as a particular insult.) Of course, the INTP never quite realizes the degree to which "what everyone else thinks" subconsciously influences one's own thoughts, because of this subconscious desire to figure out how one's thoughts fit into the overall framework.

Actually, what I found, was that organising my ideas and thoughts, made me generally correct. In the process, I realised that a lot of things that I was taught, or impressed upon by society, that I considered Si knowledge, didn't fit, whatever organisational structure I applied. This led me to eventually accept that a lot of the things that I was told, were wrong. Once I accepted that my Si was impure, and needed to be analysed by Ti, before I could trust it, I found that life got MUCH easier.