[UltraIncredible]

(Since my original thread got moved to Religion I've tweaked it a bit. I'm way more interested in having a philosophical conversation than a religious conversation. My original point in mentioning gods was that the omnipotence of god is a projection and reification of an abstract concept humanity wants to achieve.)

Maximized control over the universe is the ultimate goal. Everything else is just a means to attain it.

Obviously no one is at this point right now, but human history may be gradually developing toward it, with a higher and higher level of power over the universe. Computer scientists "solved" checkers to the point where perfect strategy can be employed from any position to maximize the outcome. The same concept can be applied to any other field of endeavor, with the logical conclusion being maximized control over the universe itself. The shorter-term goals we have right now are like tactics to win merely one checkers game from our current position, rather than all games possible from any position.

Maximized power doesn't mean that you can do anything ever. For example, you can't make square circles or add more atoms to the universe out of nowhere if those things are impossible. But you could do anything within the constraints that the universe allows.

I think folks who think it would be "boring" to reach this stage are missing the point. For one thing, an omnipotent or near-omnipotent being would be WAY different than an average human. If you want to think in terms of a human body, then picture yourself with maximized knowledge and control over your own brain. I think at that point boredom would not really be a concern. Also, they're assuming that there would be something more to do after you reach omnipotence. There wouldn't. Once you gain maximized control over the universe, by definition you're as powerful as you can possibly be. You win. It's like winning the World Series, there's nothing left to do (for that season anyway / for that universe anyway).

Of course, if there's anything outside our universe then the ultimate goal would really be maximized control over whatever that is.

[Apricots]

I don't think this will help you, and I don't think this is what you're looking for, but I had to throw in my two pieces of dehydrated fruit:

The ultimate goal to me is not maximized control over the universe. It is the maximized control over my self.

If I am in complete control of my self, I will be able to self-actualize and reach true happiness. This means no one would be able to exert control over me if I did not allow it.

But power over the universe would be lonely. You would have no equal; you would have no rival; there would be no challenge. No one could love you, because you would control everyone, and they would not be able to comprehend you even if you tried to force it from their weak minds.

Have you ever used cheat codes to unlock everything in a video game? How long does that stay fun? Perhaps you would be beyond 'boredom', but if you were universal perfection, you would be static. Is stasis ideal?

What is the point of this exercise anyway? Is it to justify the attitude that doing anything to "get ahead" is consequentially good? Curious.

[Tahiti]

The ultimate goal is to just "live". Anything else should be considered icing.

[UltraIncredible]

	Originally Posted by Apricots To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The ultimate goal to me is not maximized control over the universe. It is the maximized control over my self. If I am in complete control of my self, I will be able to self-actualize and reach true happiness. This means no one would be able to exert control over me if I did not allow it.

The only way to have complete control over oneself is to control everything. You can be as happy as you want but an asteroid can still wipe you off the planet.

	Originally Posted by Apricots To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But power over the universe would be lonely. You would have no equal; you would have no rival; there would be no challenge. No one could love you, because you would control everyone, and they would not be able to comprehend you even if you tried to force it from their weak minds.

Once a team wins the Super Bowl there's no equals and no more challenge. That doesn't invalidate the goal of winning the Super Bowl.

	Originally Posted by Apricots To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Have you ever used cheat codes to unlock everything in a video game? How long does that stay fun? Perhaps you would be beyond 'boredom', but if you were universal perfection, you would be static. Is stasis ideal?

Yes, I think so. When you appeal to things like love, fun, happiness, even if you think that these are only good insofar as they're scarce, and not constantly experienced, you're still appealing to one kind of constant state of the universe (a constant state of change) as opposed to another (a constant state of no change).

	Originally Posted by Apricots To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What is the point of this exercise anyway? Is it to justify the attitude that doing anything to "get ahead" is consequentially good? Curious.

Not at all. I'm not advocating sociopathy or tyranny or anything like that. The point is that all human action has been leading up to a specific goal and it looks like this is it. People ask what's the purpose of life and to me it looks like this is it. For most people it's so far out of reach that it probably won't happen in their lifetimes or their descendants' lifetimes. But it is nice to have some awareness of the destination and its implications.

---------- Post added 07-14-2012 at 02:23 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by GeniusPr0 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The ultimate goal is to just "live". Anything else should be considered icing.

Live moment to moment, or live for as long as possible?

[Tahiti]

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Live moment to moment, or live for as long as possible?

Just having the will to "live" qualifies as successful design, and is sufficient for a successful universe. At least that way we could grade the Universe as more good than shit, in that being that it works more than it's broken.

[UltraIncredible]

	Originally Posted by GeniusPr0 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Just having the will to "live" qualifies as successful design, and is sufficient for a successful universe. At least that way we could grade the Universe as more good than shit, in that being that it works more than it's broken.

That sounds like setting the bar pretty low.

[Apricots]

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The only way to have complete control over oneself is to control everything. You can be as happy as you want but an asteroid can still wipe you off the planet.

Well, were I truly in control of myself, I could decide whether or not the asteroid could affect me. But outside of this, we all must die. Were I happy and died before I knew any danger without any pain, I don't think that would be the worst.

	Once a team wins the Super Bowl there's no equals and no more challenge. That doesn't invalidate the goal of winning the Super Bowl.

Don't forget that there are other bonuses to winning the Super Bowl outside of the victory itself. Recognition, fame, immortality, signing bonuses, a pay raise, a cool little ring, and the hopes to repeat next year too.

This would be more akin to winning the final Super Bowl, after which there will be no more records, challenges, or recognition. Just satisfaction in ultimate victory.

	Yes, I think so. When you appeal to things like love, fun, happiness, even if you think that these are only good insofar as they're scarce, and not constantly experienced, you're still appealing to one kind of constant state of the universe (a constant state of change) as opposed to another (a constant state of no change).

You are correct there. Reaching apotheosis would grant an infinite and static feeling of ultimate love, fun, happiness, etc. Perhaps future challenges wouldn't matter.

Not at all. I'm not advocating sociopathy or tyranny or anything like that. The point is that all human action has been leading up to a specific goal and it looks like this is it. People ask what's the purpose of life and to me it looks like this is it. For most people it's so far out of reach that it probably won't happen in their lifetimes or their descendants' lifetimes. But it is nice to have some awareness of the destination and its implications.

I suppose my biggest concern is that this goal is just - so - lofty, that I can't even truly comprehend it. It's similar to a tool-less neanderthal on a desert island planning how he's going to build the moon elevator. I can better comprehend a complete control of self, which is why I lowered the bar down there. I can see steps I have to mentally take to get closer to this. Sometimes we have to limit how macro we get about philosophical issues, or else we lose touch with our own realities.

In truth, complete control of self is probably just one step along the path to complete control of the universe.

So I defer to you.

[Plus, I like variety. Even if vanilla is the finest of the flavours, I still like maple nut every now again. (<- I know, totally a flawed argument, as demonstrated above. I'm just being cheeky.)]

[Straylight]

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think folks who think it would be "boring" to reach this stage are missing the point. For one thing, an omnipotent or near-omnipotent being would be WAY different than an average human. If you want to think in terms of a human body, then picture yourself with maximized knowledge and control over your own brain.. .

Surely it would be boring. Granted you have evolved into some kind of higher being ... lets say 'intelligent energy' and you can go anywhere, maybe go everywhere at once, see anything, do anything.

Say, as an example, you have a machine that lets you manipulate every atom in a football field size space, you can do anything, create anything, how long could you keep yourself amused?

Then on top of that, you know everything and have infinite time. To me this is beginning to sound like a nightmare.

I think the things that make existence worthwhile are all the things we don't know, the things we want to do, dream about doing and the challenges we face because of our limitations.

[UltraIncredible]

	Originally Posted by Apricots To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well, were I truly in control of myself, I could decide whether or not the asteroid could affect me. But outside of this, we all must die. Were I happy and died before I knew any danger without any pain, I don't think that would be the worst.

Well we're probably going to die. Theoretically it's possible for medical science in future generations to advance to the point where death is no longer an issue, or at least much less of one. Extended lifetimes, replacing faulty organs with cloned spares, transferring your consciousness to a machine, etc.

	Originally Posted by Apricots To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Don't forget that there are other bonuses to winning the Super Bowl outside of the victory itself. Recognition, fame, immortality, signing bonuses, a pay raise, a cool little ring, and the hopes to repeat next year too. This would be more akin to winning the final Super Bowl, after which there will be no more records, challenges, or recognition. Just satisfaction in ultimate victory.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Apricots To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I suppose my biggest concern is that this goal is just - so - lofty, that I can't even truly comprehend it. It's similar to a tool-less neanderthal on a desert island planning how he's going to build the moon elevator. I can better comprehend a complete control of self, which is why I lowered the bar down there. I can see steps I have to mentally take to get closer to this. Sometimes we have to limit how macro we get about philosophical issues, or else we lose touch with our own realities.

Yeah, it's definitely not relevant for most of our short-term or even long-term concerns, but to me it's very satisfying to have some kind of coherent answer to the meaning of life question.

	Originally Posted by Apricots To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In truth, complete control of self is probably just one step along the path to complete control of the universe. So I defer to you.

I've finally managed to communicate this effectively! I wasn't sure anyone would ever agree.

---------- Post added 07-14-2012 at 03:31 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Straylight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Surely it would be boring. Granted you have evolved into some kind of higher being ... lets say 'intelligent energy' and you can go anywhere, maybe go everywhere at once, see anything, do anything. Say, as an example, you have a machine that lets you manipulate every atom in a football field size space, you can do anything, create anything, how long could you keep yourself amused? Then on top of that, you know everything and have infinite time. To me this is beginning to sound like a nightmare.

I'm not sure keeping amused would be a concern. I think at this point you'd be satisfied. Forever.

	Originally Posted by Straylight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think the things that make existence worthwhile are all the things we don't know, the things we want to do, dream about doing and the challenges we face because of our limitations.

I suppose if it were that important you could just randomly insert yourself into the life of every being that has ever lived and repeatedly experience things from each limited point of view without ever knowing it. Maybe that's what we're actually doing right now.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Straylight]

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm not sure keeping amused would be a concern. I think at this point you'd be satisfied. Forever.

Why?

	I suppose if it were that important you could just randomly insert yourself into the life of every being that has ever lived and repeatedly experience things from each limited point of view without ever knowing it. Maybe that's what we're actually doing right now. :shocked

That sounds like your an omnipotent being who has to pretend not to be omnipotent in order to find something worth doing. If thats what I'm doing right now, I'm not so much shocked as slightly disappointed.

[UltraIncredible]

	Originally Posted by Straylight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why?

There'd be nothing left to achieve, nothing missing, nothing lacking. You would be complete. Boredom and unhappiness is for incomplete beings.

[Project 2501]

Becoming immortal should take priority over omnipotence... baby steps

[thod]

If you gave control of the universe to a monkey all it would do is create bananas and tyre swings. You are no different. You cannot perfect the universe without first perfecting yourself.

[nettneu]

	Originally Posted by Apricots To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The ultimate goal to me is not maximized control over the universe. It is the maximized control over my self.

That's similar to what I put in the original thread which got moved. And for the same reasons. But:

	Originally Posted by Apricots To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In truth, complete control of self is probably just one step along the path to complete control of the universe. So I defer to you.

If your goal was complete control of the universe, then control of yourself might indeed be one step towards it. But surely that doesn't require that going beyond that step has to be a goal too?

[Straylight]

I think we just look at this in fundamentally different ways, where you say:

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There'd be nothing left to achieve, nothing missing, nothing lacking.

I'd say 'There'd be nothing left to achieve, something missing, something lacking.

Don't be surprised if when we are both sentient wave functions, I don't ghost up out of the void and metaphorically poke you in the back of the head just to amuse myself.

[Apricots]

	Originally Posted by nettneu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If your goal was complete control of the universe, then control of yourself might indeed be one step towards it. But surely that doesn't require that going beyond that step has to be a goal too?

Honestly, I just didn't see much point remaining in this discussion, so I was politely excusing myself. I don't really see anything beyond control of my self to be a worthy goal. Also, I think the exercise is getting too macro at that point to be relevant to my life. So I yielded.

Please let me excuse myself! *presses hands together and bows humbly*

[Etherialone]

Personally I think the need to "Control" is a primitive goal that is limited.. and no matter what you could ever imagine or control there is always something bigger... You just haven't evolved enough to be able to comprehend it. So Control of the "Universe" really is a pretty finite thing. But to me the goal isn't about control at all.. it's about growth and creating and helping others to do the same.