[Dancingqueen]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It appears to be a commonality amongst INTPs that they need to know as much about you as possible until something triggers them to trust you enough to divulge their lives. What that 'something' might be that triggers trust will vary per INTP.

After that trust is achieved though, when those walls come down, they really come down. They seem to have only two settings: complete trust and complete mistrust. This seems to have caused my particular INTP quite a few problems.

I think this ability to fully let down their walls and be completely vulnerable is what attracted me to him in the first place. When they open up it's complete honesty and earnestness.

[Distance]

Originally Posted by Dancingqueen To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

After that trust is achieved though, when those walls come down, they really come down. They seem to have only two settings: complete trust and complete mistrust. This seems to have caused my particular INTP quite a few problems. I think this ability to fully let down their walls and be completely vulnerable is what attracted me to him in the first place. When they open up it's complete honesty and earnestness.

Not sure I've ever gotten to the place of complete honesty and earnestness since part of their composition appears to be malleability. It maybe honest and earnest at the moment but they can flex to another...dimension?...reality?
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E - Should add that to be fair to INTPs beyond the teasing, I suspect there's a core they'll never reveal to anyone. I sometimes wonder if they fully understand their own core behind the Fe shield. But does anyone, regardless of MBTI type?

[thod]

What makes you think there is a some sort of hidden core? Break through the onion skin layers only to find nothing at all in the middle. P-zombies with no soul.

[Dancingqueen]

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What makes you think there is a some sort of hidden core? Break through the onion skin layers only to find nothing at all in the middle. P-zombies with no soul.

I've hacked the core (of my INTP). It smells like flowers in there.
It is not malleable. It is the strongest thing I've ever seen inside a human being.

[Distance]

	What makes you think there is a some sort of hidden core? Break through the onion skin layers only to find nothing at all in the middle. P-zombies with no soul.

Do you believe this? Are you informing or distracting us?

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do you believe this? Are you informing or distracting us?

My guess is repeating, not originating, tired meme to see patterns in who takes the money and runs.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My guess is repeating, not originating, tired meme to see patterns in who takes the money and runs.

Strike the pose!

[Antares]

Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Now, I'm not saying you have the same sort of relationship with your boyfriend, I'm actually pretty sure my ex was some sort of ISXJ, and a little crazy to boot, so even ISXJ is a pretty shaky assessment, but there probably is some major disconnect somewhere there that you are missing. If he keeps trying to be more intimate with you, and talk to you, but you aren't hearing what you need to hear, its not because he somehow doesn't want to know you, any more than you are trying to hide things from him, by telling him what what your feelings for you family pet were in 7th grade.

You see, that's not my problem at all. I want to do things with him not because I want people to see it (in fact, I do my very best to keep the number of people aware of our relationship to the minimum), but because I want to, shall we say, experience the world with him. Maybe it's different with INTPs, but going to the museum together, for instance, would be something I really enjoy. Shared experience is my favorite activity with someone I love.

I can't tell you exactly what is missing from your particular relationship because I don't really know what exactly is going on behind the dynamics of your particular relationship, but I can tell you this much: INTPs are notoriously tenacious in their quest to understand a mate at the most fundamental core level of their being. I have never once been in a relationship with an INTJ who thought my tireless attempts to deconstruct her personality were anything less than invasive, and most felt insulted or even threatened by it until they realized that I had no interest in using it against them in some way.

With intimates, my wall comes down unless I get some sense that either 1. someone is in the room who shouldn't be hearing this 2. you're that person. I once had a friend I referred to as my "soulmate", because I told her everything and never felt that I was placing my deepest feelings in unsafe hands, but that was because I also knew her very core. We had such trust and reciprocity- the latter is what he is not giving me. He is tenacious in trying to understand me, but he would not let me understand him on the same level.

	Think about just exactly what you meant to say here, and why you worded it this way, because on its own, this statement declares precisely the opposite of trust.

On the contrary, I do not see this as unreasonable. When you say: "I trust this person wouldn't do x", that is because you have evidence, for instance, past actions, or you know his character, that leads you to conclude something about this person's behavior. Trust is always future-oriented. There's no reason to trust someone you're doing a financial transaction with, for instance, if you're buying a hotdog in the park. You aren't depending on him in any future actions. But in another case, with credit, the creditor is making a prediction that you will not fail to pay. That's why taking out mortgage requires an income proof. It's akin to saying: This here is the document that I will continue to get money, so I will be able to pay my installments.

You're right that I do not completely trust him on an instinctive level. I will trust him with my money and official documents. I will even trust him not to betray what I've told him about myself. In this case it's not that knowing "emotional history" will necessary lead to anything concrete, but I think most humans are hardwired to expect reciprocity, especially when it comes to bonding, and when they don't get it insecurities pile up. I feel his tenacity is invasive because when he says: "So what about that time? Tell me." I think: "This guy is getting close to knowing every experience that ever affected me deeply. What do I know about him that's comparable? Why should I tell him if he clams up, or gives an answer so vague as to deflect the question, every time I ask him about his past?"

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What makes you think there is a some sort of hidden core? Break through the onion skin layers only to find nothing at all in the middle. P-zombies with no soul.

Every INTP is different, and I suppose some INTPs are really empty inside, but every INTP I have ever been good friends with (after they allowed me into their core, which didn't take that much time, surprisingly, but I let them in too) had a wealth of emotions inside. Even my boyfriend gives hints of its existence.

[Indubitably]

That's just it though, the banker doesn't trust you at all, and why would he need to when the game is already rigged in his favor. The conflation your definition asserts is much the same as refusing to draw a distinction between bravery and a lack of fear. Trust is something that is derived from faith, not certainty. I don't mean faith in the sense of mindlessly unquestioning acceptance for that matter either, because blind faith asserts precisely the same conflation that I am contesting here. When I say faith, I mean the willingness to entertain the possibility that something may be true even though you don't know, and may very well never know that it is true, yet pursue it none the less, because there is something more there in the seeking than the answer itself.

You can only trust someone in so far as you do not have confidence in your ability to predict their actions with certainty. You may derive the strength of character to trust them from confidence in your own ability survive regardless of the outcome, or the knowledge that the choice is worth making even if you are incorrect, but there is no trust in limiting your acceptance of an individual to the behavior that you can predict reliably. The banker is no more trusting for insisting that you provide him proof that you are a reliable investment, than a soldier is brave for triumphantly driving a tank over an empty chicken shack.

Sometimes you know your lover so well that you don't need to trust them, and that's fine too, but its not the same thing as trust. Nobody is perfect though, and the fear of vulnerability is certainly nothing exclusive to INTJs, so its not like I'm trying to suggest that you should beat yourself up over it. There is obviously something missing here that you need, but I don't think blaming him for the fact that you are afraid to trust him is going to help you find it, because he will quite simply never be able to provide you with enough leverage and dirt to make those feelings of fear and vulnerability go away.

[anticlimatic]

I typically idle at complete trust in people that I have just met, at least when it comes to things like my mind, body, and emotional well being. Things like money and secrets, not so much up front...but other than that I will throw myself into anyone, just to see if things stick. I adore intimacy of the mind so much, I literally hate to waste a single moment without it if I can help it.

Most (not all) internal feelers freak out over this, judge me as some kind of creepy small talk skipping abomination, and politely (or impolitely) tell me to go fuck myself. Which is fine. I am typically not interested in putting up with god knows how much facade, just to one day FINALLY break through to a real person, regardless of how precious and magical they fancy their own hidden unicorns.

Those that CAN hang, though- and even better, offer the same instant trust and off the cuff honesty in return- make it into a zone of very special and sincere endearment. What I believe other posters in this forum have called "the complet trust" or "inner intp circle."

The long way is of course still an option, and probably leads to even deeper levels of endearment, especially over lots of time and communication- but there IS a shortcut to the inner circle, I think...unless I'm rogue in this regard.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I adore intimacy of the mind so much, I literally hate to waste a single moment without it if I can help it.

No better gift than to be able to speak one's mind and hear another's. Make new things. Effort worth most of the possible pain trailing along.

	I am typically not interested in putting up with god knows how much facade, just to one day FINALLY break through to a real person, regardless of how precious and magical they fancy their own hidden unicorns.

Agreed. Internal mythical bestiaries are good for understanding a person and the things that might trip up that shared freedom but they're not the velveteen rabbit.

	unless I'm rogue in this regard.

You're not. *sigh* Sometimes I think you're so on, other times...
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*shakes head* Well, anyway, right now and here we agree.

[superflax]

Me and my INTP are still just friends but like I see so much potential with the two of us, it makes my insides melt because she's that awesome :D

No actual contribution to the thread I just wanted everyone to know I'm basically on my to falling in love LOL

[Lilie]

Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I typically idle at complete trust in people that I have just met, at least when it comes to things like my mind, body, and emotional well being. Things like money and secrets, not so much up front...but other than that I will throw myself into anyone, just to see if things stick. I adore intimacy of the mind so much, I literally hate to waste a single moment without it if I can help it. Most (not all) internal feelers freak out over this, judge me as some kind of creepy small talk skipping abomination

Yeah, I react to that kind of thing pretty much the same way I react to someone I just met trying to literally fuck me. Slut! Mind slut! Eek!
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When I was younger I thought it actually meant something. Of course I know better now.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Lilie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	When I was younger I thought it actually meant something. Of course I know better now.

What did you think it meant?

[Rhea8649]

Have been dating this INTP for some time... We hit it off very quickly.

Positives: He is NOT intimidated by INTJ female. He encourages me to be me. Smart as hell. Can keep my brain occupied and interested. We both are dominant in our own ways and things pretty much event out in our relationship.

Negatives: Scheduling, timing, planning, getting things done. He is pretty hopeless there. The good thing is that he is aware that those are my subject matter areas of expertise and he seems to rely on me to take the lead there.

Oh… Somebody said that earlier… Sex is great. He managed to get my brain first, the rest on my body followed soon after.

[wolfyx]

Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I typically idle at complete trust in people that I have just met, at least when it comes to things like my mind, body, and emotional well being. Things like money and secrets, not so much up front...but other than that I will throw myself into anyone, just to see if things stick. I adore intimacy of the mind so much, I literally hate to waste a single moment without it if I can help it. Most (not all) internal feelers freak out over this, judge me as some kind of creepy small talk skipping abomination, and politely (or impolitely) tell me to go fuck myself. Which is fine. I am typically not interested in putting up with god knows how much facade, just to one day FINALLY break through to a real person, regardless of how precious and magical they fancy their own hidden unicorns. Those that CAN hang, though- and even better, offer the same instant trust and off the cuff honesty in return- make it into a zone of very special and sincere endearment. What I believe other posters in this forum have called "the complet trust" or "inner intp circle." The long way is of course still an option, and probably leads to even deeper levels of endearment, especially over lots of time and communication- but there IS a shortcut to the inner circle, I think...unless I'm rogue in this regard.

I do the same. I also have a childish impulse to trust people. I also hate facade and small talk. I go straight to the "core" of the person and he/she will usually feel that I invade his/her personal space and run away. Of course I will also open up completely and try to show them who I really am, a complex person that will see right through them and will read between the lines of everything they say.

Maybe this is why is quite hard for me to find real friends or meaningful relationships. Usually those who can stand me and don't run away are the developed extroverted feelers: ISFJ, INFJ, etc. For the others I might just come of as too threatening and not "fun to be around".

I don't think I have ever dated real INTJ women. I have dated a couple of ENTJ but it did not work out. Very extroverted women will usually tire me and I will feel that they are not "deep" enough and I cannot have the mental connection that I need with them. So until now, most of my significant relationships were with some kind of IxFx personality women but I think a relationship with an INTJ might also work if she makes an effort to keep an open mind.

[Lilie]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What did you think it meant?

I was just going off the sex metaphor, but I really did think it was an attempt to build some kind of relationship rather than just an attempt to get some stimulation.

[Indubitably]

	Originally Posted by Lilie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I was just going off the sex metaphor, but I really did think it was an attempt to build some kind of relationship rather than just an attempt to get some stimulation.

I think INTPs sometimes forget that other types aren't subject to the continual process of conceptual deconstruction that we inflict upon ourselves. Its almost like we are a kind of mental extremophile, everything we think and feel is stripped down to its core constituents for processing and refinement (with virtually no regard for the impact it might have on our ego) then rebuilt from the ground up, and quite frankly, this process is not the kind of thing that ever really has any sort of end to it. It may seem caustic or invasive to an INTJ, but for an INTP this kind of thing feels perfectly natural, so when we ask someone to jump into the hot tub with us we don't always stop to think that humans aren't comfortable in a 192 degree acid bath with a ph of 2. We often come out of the process feeling rejected and confused, because the response we get is almost invariably, "What the fuck are you trying to do, kill me?!", but we have no intent to cause harm, we just like to enjoy a nice relaxing sulfuric mud bath in the evenings because it opens up our pores and gives our skin a nice rosy glow, so we thought you might like to join us. Sometimes though, you just have to say, "No. I'm sorry but my proteins will denature and my identity will turn to a pile of goo if I answer that question right now, so I'm just not comfortable going there just yet". It may seem hurtful and confusing to the INTP at first, but once you kindly explain to them that your ideas and your identity just aren't separable like that, they will usually do their best to back off and give you some space to meet them half way in your own time.

[Async]

When I started to get to know my INTP friend, I've decided to go with an approach that was different than anything I've done before. I went for broke, I opened up, I granted complete access to the tiniest corner of my mind. Nothing about me or what I think is off limit for discussion. They are the sort of things that I normally guarded. I often engaged my Te and talked to my friend. Fi normally stayed under wrap. Incidentally, Indubitably was on the mark when he said that INTJs are not calm, we just have our emotion tightly coiled. Yes, there were times when I thought that it was unfair while he got complete access when I didn't know his opinions on many things.
It *is* unnerving to be analyzed. I know damn well that I *am* being analyzed, in his head. Every encounter, thoughts, writings have been processed, cataloged and added to his model about who I am.
So why would I grant someone complete access? I let my INTP friend know that it is very uncomfortable for me to open up, but I do it anyway. May be he will open up, maybe he won't. In this dialogue, I am willing to be the first one because I think the reward can be spectacular. Maybe my strategy will not work, I don't know, unless I try. It is bizarre that being vulnerable can be quite liberating. It is like letting go of fear of being hurt. It is like jumping out of a perfectly good working airplane and have faith that the parachute will open.

Agreed with someone said earlier that mature INTJ/INTP pairing could work. I don't think I can handle my INTP friend when I was younger.

[wolfyx]

	Originally Posted by Async To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	When I started to get to know my INTP friend, I've decided to go with an approach that was different than anything I've done before. I went for broke, I opened up, I granted complete access to the tiniest corner of my mind. Nothing about me or what I think is off limit for discussion. They are the sort of things that I normally guarded.

I think this is a very big "turn on" for an INTP. I tend to "fall in love" with the people who are open, sincere and vulnerable. I have a genuine desire to "help" them and I want to share the most intimate emotions with them.

	I often engaged my Te and talked to my friend. Fi normally stayed under wrap. Incidentally, Indubitably was on the mark when he said that INTJs are not calm, we just have our emotion tightly coiled. Yes, there were times when I thought that it was unfair while he got complete access when I didn't know his opinions on many things.

Maybe he did not tell you his opinion on many things because he wanted to protect you. A true INTP has an opinion about almost everything and those opinions may be extremely unconventional. I usually share my thoughts and emotions very easily, except when I consider that my ideas would be hurtful for the other person.

	It *is* unnerving to be analyzed. I know damn well that I *am* being analyzed, in his head. Every encounter, thoughts, writings have been processed, cataloged and added to his model about who I am.

You are analyzed anyway so the best approach is to be sincere because an INTP will see through your masks and lose interest and respect if he discovers "incoherences".

So why would I grant someone complete access? I let my INTP friend know that it is very uncomfortable for me to open up, but I do it anyway. May be he will open up, maybe he won't. In this dialogue, I am willing to be the first one because I think the reward can be spectacular. Maybe my strategy will not work, I don't know, unless I try. It is bizarre that being vulnerable can be quite liberating. It is like letting go of fear of being hurt. It is like jumping out of a perfectly good working airplane and has faith that the parachute will open.

Once you established an emotional connection, the INTP will genuinely care about your feelings. Being vulnerable is also "sharing" the burden of your emotions with someone else. If he understands you and he empathizes with you then it’s normal to have the "liberating feeling".

[Async]

	Originally Posted by wolfyx To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Maybe he did not tell you his opinion on many things because he wanted to protect you. A true INTP has an opinion about almost everything and those opinions may be extremely unconventional. ".

Protect? or is it that one doesn't think unconventional view points would be receptive until some sort of reference has been established?

We are at a point where we can discuss unconventional view points so I think we are getting somewhere. It does take awhile, though.

I think INTP dig people who are open to try different experiences and to entertain different perspective

[wolfyx]

	Originally Posted by Async To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Protect? or is it that one doesn't think unconventional view points would be receptive until some sort of reference has been established? We are at a point where we can discuss unconventional view points so I think we are getting somewhere. It does take awhile, though. I think INTP dig people who are open to try different experiences and to entertain different perspective

You are right. An INTP hates conventions and rules. The world, especially at an abstract level is a realm of endless possibilities, all to be considered and explored.

The problem is that "unconventional" ideas may attack the core values of a person. So out of consideration for the other it is better to avoid sensitive subject especially at the begining of a relationship.

As Indubitably said above, INTP is always questioning his identity, but the same can not be said about other personality types. For example, if you were religious, how would you feel to engage an atheist INTP in a debate about religion, just to see him become emotionally involved and logically and methodically deconstruct and ridicule all your beliefs?

[Async]

	Originally Posted by wolfyx To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As Indubitably said above, INTP is always questioning his identity, but the same can not be said about other personality types. For example, if you were religious, how would you feel to engage an atheist INTP in a debate about religion, just to see him become emotionally involved and logically and methodically deconstruct and ridicule all your beliefs?

Wait! I thought that INTJs are supposed to be open-minded. How can one claim be open-minded if one is not willing to engage in debates to see different view points? Or am I guilty of painting immature & mature INTJs with the same brush? (just slight sarcasm here, understatement, perhaps?). How can one be sure that his/her belief would hold true if the belief is not subjected to some sort of deconstruct and cross-examination? As long as the idea/belief is what being discussed and not personal attack, then shouldn't it be a fair game for everyone?

or INTPs think that INTJs are not capable of doing what I just described?

[Kryptonite]

Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I typically idle at complete trust in people that I have just met, at least when it comes to things like my mind, body, and emotional well being. Things like money and secrets, not so much up front...but other than that I will throw myself into anyone, just to see if things stick. I adore intimacy of the mind so much, I literally hate to waste a single moment without it if I can help it. Most (not all) internal feelers freak out over this, judge me as some kind of creepy small talk skipping abomination, and politely (or impolitely) tell me to go fuck myself. Which is fine. I am typically not interested in putting up with god knows how much facade, just to one day FINALLY break through to a real person, regardless of how precious and magical they fancy their own hidden unicorns. Those that CAN hang, though- and even better, offer the same instant trust and off the cuff honesty in return- make it into a zone of very special and sincere endearment. What I believe other posters in this forum have called "the complet trust" or "inner intp circle." The long way is of course still an option, and probably leads to even deeper levels of endearment, especially over lots of time and communication- but there IS a shortcut to the inner circle, I think...unless I'm rogue in this regard.

yes yes hallelujah YES!

Okay one difference you might find is that when pressured an INTJ will shut down and do so it your face, close up and stay locked until they are ready. If pressured and trapped in emotional circumstances, into not being alowed (or sometimes forced to if riled up) to quietly retreat and think, an INTP will shut everything down, burn the bridge, poison the water so you can't even swim back, destroy all maps to original place, kill the map makers and family, take the dog with them, burn your photos and sell everything you gave them and buy something with that money they KNOW you will loathe and cement that thing in their front yard as the final FUCK YOU I NEVER LIKED YOU ANYWAY. We do this without you really knowing much except the in the fight during the original pressure. We do it to keep ourselves from being tricked into vulnerability to you ever again, not really to spite you.

then he or she will wake up a week later and think, oh shit that wasn't what he meant by that and fuck me because I suddenly remember where I left my missing laptop.....at his house......

they do this (we do this in the face of unexpected criticism by someone when we are vulnerable too) to feel safe. The detachment is a service to keep the rape and pillage under control. As we mature the rage of our emotions has been analyzed and enough consequences have been suffered that we now know how to take deep breaths and not feel forced. We also have tricks we have set up to run our lives and avoid pitfalls of our personality. But as a pressured emotionally INTP will be a self and all destructive dragon, the emotionally stimulated trusting INTP will build you an exact replica of the Taj mahal out of gorilla glue, eyelashes, and their own teeth.
..................


Trick to get an INTP to like you? Pet his intellectual prowess, ask smart questions while he talks. Then if he looks triggered, dont run in the other direction and leave him alone, back up, say calmly "take time to think, i will be here" then close down. does that make sense?

[Distance]

Originally Posted by Kryptonite To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If pressured and trapped in emotional circumstances, into not being alowed (or sometimes forced to if riled up) to quietly retreat and think, an INTP will shut everything down, burn the bridge, poison the water so you can't even swim back, destroy all maps to original place, kill the map makers and family, take the dog with them, burn your photos and sell everything you gave them and buy something with that money they KNOW you will loathe and cement that thing in their front yard as the final FUCK YOU I NEVER LIKED YOU ANYWAY.

No.