[knitteratheart]

If feels like we're all jumping around the subject. The question is "If there is no God, then why is murder wrong" right? Shouldn't we first go into the question of the definition of "wrong"? What decides right and wrong? If there is no clear line, if there is no real definition, then there is no such thing as wrong. As such, whether there is a god or not is irrelivant.
Though on the flip side, people don't murder because they think it's "right" they do it because, (and I'm excluding those who accidentilly kill out of blind anger) they've measured the benifits and consequences and believe that killing is "better" or will "solve a situation".
Of course if you're asking "Why we shouldn't murder" then that's a whole different discussion, right?

[zibber]

Originally Posted by Antares To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well, I don't know about you, but I have a belief in the fundamental rights of everyone, so murder would be taking someone elses right to live; thereby making it immoral. You can exercise your rights as long as 1. your rights override the others 2. it doesn't affect others if your rights are equal. But then again, I might be influenced by the idea of social contract, so... To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yeah, me too. I find murder, and even any (unwanted!) physical maltreatment, utterly respectless and immoral. Does the fact that the majority of humans agree with that (ignoring the matter of capital punishment for a second) make any of it wrong in an absolute sense, though? That's what religious people seem to claim.

Anyone else thinking "euthyphro", by the way?

[Antares]

	Does the fact that the majority of humans agree with that (ignoring the matter of capital punishment for a second) make any of it wrong in an absolute sense, though? That's what religious people seem to claim.

Wait; can you rephrase that? I didn't really understand what the religious people are claiming.

[Smee]

	Why is Human life worth more than a bugs life?

Humans perceive themselves as the dominant species, as of now. Insects are thought of as pests, not to mention that such beings do not have great thinking capacity (as is the case with a not-so-small number of humans). It comes naturally to humankind to kill what is considered more savage than them (which if why I am confused as to why people house cats and dogs but not cows and pigs).

	Why is murder wrong?

I just answered a question like this so I won't write much...I don't believe murder is always wrong. Of course I've been contested on this view on numerous occasions, but my thoughts have hardly swayed. Avoid killing when you can, sure, but if you can kill one "bad" to save many "good" (I'd rather say pseudo-"good"), do so. Most people will not face this situation. I have yet to.

[DesertKnight]

Human beings have an inherent and instinctive sense of what is right and wrong, religion does not equate morality (debate that all you like but it is true) and humans are perfectly capable of being moral and ethical without religion.

If you need a god to tell you that killing people is wrong, and if god is the only reason you don't kill or rape people; then religion is the very least of your worries.

[Vermillion]

	Originally Posted by Prodigal Son To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why is murder wrong? Why is Human life worth more than a bugs life?

It isn't. Value is subjective and unique to the individual.

There is no right or wrong. Morality is a license to do whatever the fuck you want. Think of all the atrocities of humanity that where justified with "morality." It is a joke, total bullshit.

There is no right or wrong, only conflict of interest.

	Originally Posted by DesertKnight
	If you need a god to tell you that killing people is wrong, and if god is the only reason you don't kill or rape people; then religion is the very least of your worries.

Tell that to all the people who support the death penalty and prison rape. ANYTHING is justifiable via "morality." It's just easier when you can say that an all powerful being sanctions your own hypocrisy.

So then, what is the difference between killing someone you don't like and smashing a fly? Intent is the only difference. People feel the need to justify killing others, and use morality to do so. Since fly's can't question them, let alone retaliate, people see no need to justify killing a fly, like they needed no justification in killing other humans in times past under the right circumstances.

Watch National Geographic videos of animals killing and tearing each other apart. Then watch videos of humans doing the same to other humans. The only difference is that humans will most of the time try to justify their actions. The only nonhypocritial humans are the ones who kill and simply don't give a fuck.

Humans are animals. Humans kill other animals. Morality is a lie, a pathetic attempt to justify human nature. If you're going to kill or support killing, rape, torture, racism, bigotry or what-the-fuck-ever, don't try to justify it, just do it. And accept the consequences of your actions.

	Human beings have an inherent and instinctive sense of what is right and wrong,

Horse shit. Right and wrong are subjective. Or are you going to tell me that George Bush feels bad about the nearly million civilians killed by his wars or that Al Quada feels bad about 9/11. They justify this behavior, to themselves under the guise of morality. Humans are animals, they ultimately have no sense of right and wrong beyond what benefits themselves and/or what they have been programmed by their environment to believe.

[JC22]

	Originally Posted by Prodigal Son To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why is murder wrong?

Only subjectively.

	Originally Posted by Prodigal Son To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why is Human life worth more than a bugs life?

Who lied and told you that?

[Tocsin]

There are dozens of social animals that have complex behaviors regarding conflict within the social group, including, in some cases, notions of restraint against agression.

There are notable exceptions, such as the infanticide initiated by a new alpha male; to eliminate the offspring of his predecessor and to bring the females back into estrus, as well as infanticide carried out between females to eliminate competing offspring. But for the most part, intrasocietal violence within a group is considered an abberation.

In terms of complex primates, whether this general disinclination regarding violence is from nature or nuture is debatable, but it certainly doesn't need to have a divine author.

I'm assuming no one is going to argue that the social structure of dog packs stems from some sort of "doggy ten commandments" issued to one of the prominent early dog patriarchs by god, or by some dog-god.

[DesertKnight]

Originally Posted by Vermillion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Tell that to all the people who support the death penalty and prison rape. ANYTHING is justifiable via "morality." It's just easier when you can say that an all powerful being sanctions your own hypocrisy. So then, what is the difference between killing someone you don't like and smashing a fly? Intent is the only difference. People feel the need to justify killing others, and use morality to do so. Since fly's can't question them, let alone retaliate, people see no need to justify killing a fly, like they needed no justification in killing other humans in times past under the right circumstances. Watch National Geographic videos of animals killing and tearing each other apart. Then watch videos of humans doing the same to other humans. The only difference is that humans will most of the time try to justify their actions. The only nonhypocritial humans are the ones who kill and simply don't give a fuck. Humans are animals. Humans kill other animals. Morality is a lie, a pathetic attempt to justify human nature. If you're going to kill or support killing, rape, torture, racism, bigotry or what-the-fuck-ever, don't try to justify it, just do it. And accept the consequences of your actions. Horse shit. Right and wrong are subjective. Or are you going to tell me that George Bush feels bad about the nearly million civilians killed by his wars or that Al Quada feels bad about 9/11. They justify this behavior, to themselves under the guise of morality. Humans are animals, they ultimately have no sense of right and wrong beyond what benefits themselves and/or what they have been programmed by their environment to believe.

I gotta stop posting in these ridiculous philosophical discussions. I don't like it when people try to attach grand intellectual ideals to extremely simple principles. The entire notion that everything is subjective, while true, is also ridiculous and pretentious. Just as the guise of morality can be used to justify anything so can the assertion that everything is subjective. I have a really high sense of justice myself, and I've been that way since childhood, no religion ever influenced that sense of right and wrong. To assert that I don't have a sense of morality is laughable, because I clearly do. My morality is subjective to me as everyone else' is subjective to them; however basic societal concepts (such as not killing people just because you feel like it) appeal and benefit humanity as a whole and therefore 'morality' is created.

The fact that people do immoral things under the auspice of morality does not undermine the actual idea of morality itself. Everything in this world is corruptible, everything, so when people do bad things they attach a label to said bad thing in order to absolve themselves of whatever guilt that bad thing might cause. That does not mean that whatever label they are using is a falsehood, only that it is being unjustly used.

That said, people are always going to kill people, no matter what you do or say about it; because people are as you put only animals. But to assert that the only thing keeping us from murdering each other in our sleep is a conflict of interest is a really conceited thing to say. Humans have a higher capacity for intelligence than animals, such as our unique ability to develop and acquire language (ours is different from apes, ants and dolphins after all), and in doing so we can also make more complicated and/or emotional decisions based on surrounding environmental factors.

I'll agree easily that a myriad of people do terrible unforgivable crimes in the name of justice and morality, but I can't agree that those concepts don't exist purely because of that.

Here is an article by the way on the idea of instinctive morality:
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There is a lot more on this topic but that is a decent general description of the idea. I don't want to derail this thread though and if I keep going I'll likely do just that. I believe in right and wrong, I don't believe that non-sociopathic individuals need to be told what is right and what is wrong (that is to say I don't think religion or government is needed for that job); you disagree and that is fine I was only providing my opinion on the matter.

[sunitaishot]

Social animals have rules.

Social animals use these rules to maintain order. This is all that is required for murder to be wrong.

There are also emotive reasons, which perhaps make up the bulk of it (emotivism may exist, but humans approach many things via emotion and feeling, so this doesn't invalidate the theory).

[Paul Siraisi]

A human's life is worth more because you're a human. And your life is worth more to you than other humans' lives. Luckily for them, your life often depends on theirs. Why all this? Because the universe has a center in each of us. It's the nature of physics.

[Typhon]

God shouldn't be the reason why you aren't shitty.

[Megalomania]

....everything is permitted." - Dostoevsky

---------- Post added 07-08-2012 at 12:56 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Typhon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	God shouldn't be the reason why you aren't shitty.

Nah, the existence of a meaningful morality is.

[Disillusioned]

	Originally Posted by Prodigal Son To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why is murder wrong? Why is Human life worth more than a bugs life?

Read Camus' The Myth of Sisyphus. He basically answers this exact question.

'Why shouldn't one commit suicide in the face of an absurd world (one where no God or predetermined purpose exists)?'

[N0c7urn3]

The simple answer is that it's because of evolution. Species that don't inherit emphatic instincts are not likely to last. They certainly won't form entire cultures. The more complex answer would have to do with the cultures that do form, because they will interact with the inherent biology. You learn pretty quick that you need to behave in certain ways to succeed. These ways usually involve not killing other people (at least not from in your 'inner circle'). Violence if it does occur, usually occurs when there is an extremely good reward for doing so (tribal warfare, for instance), which does preserve a bit of an aggressive streak in human beings (usually males). So, that would be why human beings in general don't' murder each other, but sometimes shit happens under certain scenarios.

Of course, that you aren't inclined to murder assumes that neither your biology (brain damage) nor your culture (faulty memes) is screwed up. Unfortunately, these things also do happen, and more or less do explain why people can end up as sociopaths or crazed killers.

You don't need God or gods to explain any facet of human behavior. Morality is no different.

[Hariar]

Topic 4 years old, OP banned. I'm in.

I skimmed the thread; and while some posts were onto similar things, I think something is missing.

The questions asked in the OP are flawed, because they are not careful enough with definitions. There are at least two possible forms of morals:

• objective morals
• subjective morals

Objective morals are morals that are magically voven into the very existence itself somehow (just like gravity is a product of spacetime); or voven into the humans, or something like that. Subjective morals, on the other hand, are like any other subjective opinion: "this cake tastes good" and "this is morally wrong to do" are then statements belonging to the same category; they are subjective.

Humans by default usually believe in objective morals, while a great deal or most areligious people will adopt a view that is more subjective (even if not entirely subjective) as they grow older/think things through.

If one were to believe in objective morals, then OP's question would be answered by arguing that the morals were somehow voven into existence without a god.

If one does not believe in objective morals, then the nature of the topic changes radically; and there is possibly no 'final' answer, only different interpretations.

Conclusion: OP needs to clarify what exactly is (or should we say was) on his mind; such that we can know what exactly it is that we are supposed to debate. Most unfortunately though, OP is banned.
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[sunitaishot]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A human's life is worth more because you're a human. And your life is worth more to you than other humans' lives. Luckily for them, your life often depends on theirs. Why all this? Because the universe has a center in each of us. It's the nature of physics.

How is this case exactly? If it's because humans are sapient, what about a mentally retarded person? Is s/he lesser?

[Bre]

I believe there is a God. I believe he healed me of cancer in 2008. I appreciate Dr. Hugh Ross's works, but that is me.

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by Bre To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I believe there is a God. I believe he healed me of cancer in 2008. I appreciate Dr. Hugh Ross's works, but that is me.

You apparently aren't aware of the
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in it's broadest terms such as the body healing itself.

Maybe you being in this life longer means you will catch on.

Good Luck With That.

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by Richard0612 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Sorry to answer a question with another, but even if there is a God/gods, why does that alone make murder wrong or a human life worth more than that of an ant?

Because then you have a legitimate creator assigning your existence value. Otherwise, you're just a random product of cause and effect - not much different from a rock except that the rate at which changes seem to be happening is faster... and that is if you use a perspective where the size of a human is meaningful and time is measured at a rate that is meaningful to humans... From the perspective of much faster time, we would be like the rock slowly being affected by the winds and being moved elsewhere (if perhaps made of more than one rock)

Without something that is beyond cause and effect to give us value, we are machinery.

---

Alternatively, from a non-universally true perspective, the only reason our lives would seem to have value than an ant is that we collectively choose to assign them more value than an ant.

[Sk8ordude]

If you go around killing people, its only a matter of time before somebody comes around killing you. So people just agree not to go around killing each other. There is also empathy and attachment for those that are less sociopathic then others.

There are various factors that go into why humans are worth more then bugs, but I would say the biggest on is that they appear to be less conscious then we are in terms of mental capabilities, and as one goes up and down throughout the animal kingdom we find our value for things increases as they become more like us. Empathy is a reason for this, and you find that the more sociopathic one is the less empathy they have for thing that are different from us.