Should punishment be personal?

**Autumnleaf** · 07-03-2012, 02:13 PM

Is vengeance morally better or worse than a bureaucratic legal system then uses due process to dish out punishment according to the law?

**Grave** · 07-03-2012, 04:23 PM

They both amount to the same system. A defiling of what is "good" is in due punishment for both. In a society it is a set standard build from a moral system consistent to the society's psychological needs, or a society's will, as a whole--as in this is "good" for the society. So laws are imposed that would be agreed upon by most if not all society members. Breaking the laws would probably not have a psychological impact to someone not personally involved, but it is decidedly "wrong" within the society to commit such a crime. A society then upholds its right or wrongs and may impose them through laws; however, whether you agree with its laws is debatable, and its sole purpose is to uphold the will of the people. Therefore, the people, or in a democratic case, the majority always uphold the right and wrongs; and with this support, we can't argue that it is wrong to punish a criminal to a society, rather would have to argue that the laws are not rightly imposing the will of the people. In personal system, it is not unlike the society system except that you can expect a psychological impact. Since we base something in a society to be wrong on the roots of a psychological level, It begins with crimes committed personally that we start imposing laws.The reason we make these laws is always because more people would agree that if this crime would be committed against them they would feel pain. Pain--psychologically--that we do not want as a society.

With this analysis of the two types of punishment, I can answer your question. I do not believe revenge is justifiable, even though I see punishment against a criminal as society's way of revenge, but I think a society has its reason to punish, and that is because it has laws. Whereas someone who thirsts for revenge has a reason to believe an action against him was wrong he did not, unlike the society, have something which shows his reason for punishment. Because I think it like this: A psychological impact gives you reason to believe something is wrong; Laws give you reason to punish.

**JC22** · 07-03-2012, 04:35 PM

Seeking vengeance makes you just as bad a evil-doers.

Punishment is made up of two things.

(1) consequence
(2) learning

otherwise consequence without a learning period is just torture. and if we do that were does that leave us?

**Vermillion** · 07-03-2012, 05:52 PM

	Originally Posted by JC22 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Seeking vengeance makes you just as bad a evil-doers. Punishment is made up of two things. (1) consequence (2) learning otherwise consequence without a learning period is just torture. and if we do that were does that leave us?

^That. Justice and mercy are both flawed. Morality is just a license to do whatever you want and justify it. Such subjective ideals should play no part in dealing with these types of situations. It should instead be approached with a problem solving mindset that places logic and efficiency above all else. If the victims are butt-hurt and thirsting for vengeance, that's too fucking bad.

That being said, if someone raped my 4 year old daughter I'd want to peel the flesh from their bones in the most torturous way possible. But I would overcome such feelings with rationality.

Punishment is only a means to an end, at least it should be. Most of the time people forget this, such as in the US where the so called "justice system" is horrible at preventing crime since there is no emphasis placed on rehabilitation whatsoever. People thirst for vengeance and have a "lock them up, treat them like animals, and throw away the key. Anyone in prison is garbage" mentality. This has produced a recidivism rate of over 60%. Nice going Americans.

Hate begets hate. You can moralize and justify until you're blue in the face and even if the majority believes you have "justice" on your side, nothing will change and the cycle will continue.

**Typhon** · 07-03-2012, 08:46 PM

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is vengeance morally better or worse than a bureaucratic legal system then uses due process to dish out punishment according to the law?

I prefer the latter but I also think that the former is okay too sometimes. Ideally I like the idea of a restitution-based legal system, so that criminals would directly pay back their victims and thus bypass the need for revenge. However, if that system is not present then I'm fine with vengeance.

**sunitaishot** · 07-03-2012, 09:00 PM

Society is too infused with these Eastern-based forgiveness principles. Why is it wrong necessarily to seek vengeance?

Our views on the treatment of criminals are influenced by modern philosophy/morality anyhow.

**Nathanael** · 07-03-2012, 09:04 PM

	Originally Posted by sunitaishot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Society is too infused with these Eastern-based forgiveness principles. Why is it wrong necessarily to seek vengeance? Our views on the treatment of criminals are influenced by modern philosophy/morality anyhow.

I would love to know how Foucault has influenced the prison industrial complex and our acceptance of it. Please tell.

**sunitaishot** · 07-03-2012, 09:11 PM

	Originally Posted by Nathanael To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I would love to know how Foucault has influenced the prison industrial complex and our acceptance of it. Please tell.

I never mentioned Foucault. I simply asserted that due to PC thinking, we see it as acceptable not to mistreat prisoners.

**Nathanael** · 07-03-2012, 09:27 PM

	Originally Posted by sunitaishot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I never mentioned Foucault. I simply asserted that due to PC thinking, we see it as acceptable not to mistreat prisoners.

PC thinking? Could you elaborate on the relationship between modern philosophy and your definition of PC thinking, and how that has anything to do with "Eastern-based forgiveness principles"?

Also, you say we see it as "acceptable not to mistreat prisoners" - to me this implies that mistreating prisoners is somehow the norm which has been changed. Could you explain this?

**topquark** · 07-04-2012, 07:02 AM

Revenge - personal or state-sanctioned - is pointless and wrong. The only role of the penal system should be to remove dangerous people from society and provide a deterrent to crime.

**sunitaishot** · 07-04-2012, 07:37 AM

	Originally Posted by Nathanael To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	PC thinking? Could you elaborate on the relationship between modern philosophy and your definition of PC thinking, and how that has anything to do with "Eastern-based forgiveness principles"? Also, you say we see it as "acceptable not to mistreat prisoners" - to me this implies that mistreating prisoners is somehow the norm which has been changed. Could you explain this?

Historically, people did not value the welfare of prisoners.

hi5yourface · 07-04-2012, 08:08 AM

	Originally Posted by JC22 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Seeking vengeance makes you just as bad a evil-doers. Punishment is made up of two things. (1) consequence (2) learning otherwise consequence without a learning period is just torture. and if we do that were does that leave us?

Do you think it is truly possible to rehabilitate certain individuals who deliberately prey on others such as sociopaths like Ted Bundy who had the audacity to represent himself in a court of law?

Some people do what they do not because they do not know it's wrong but because they like it and they are evil. Is it evil to eradicate evil or at the very least remove from the public and hopefully popular culture?

	Originally Posted by Vermillion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That being said, if someone raped my 4 year old daughter I'd want to peel the flesh from their bones in the most torturous way possible. But I would overcome such feelings with rationality.

I strongly doubt that.

Punishment is only a means to an end, at least it should be. Most of the time people forget this, such as in the US where the so called "justice system" is horrible at preventing crime since there is no emphasis placed on rehabilitation whatsoever. People thirst for vengeance and have a "lock them up, treat them like animals, and throw away the key. Anyone in prison is garbage" mentality. This has produced a recidivism rate of over 60%. Nice going Americans.

Hate begets hate. You can moralize and justify until you're blue in the face and even if the majority believes you have "justice" on your side, nothing will change and the cycle will continue.

Just so we're clear the rape of your 4 year old daughter scenario and chances of rehabilitation of the offender are not very likely since you are speaking about a base primal urge influenced by a twisted pleasure response. Even when helped psychiatrically many repeat offend.

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**Nathanael** · 07-04-2012, 08:41 AM

	Originally Posted by sunitaishot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Historically, people did not value the welfare of prisoners.

And you feel this is more appropriate? Or you have no feelings on this?

**sunitaishot** · 07-04-2012, 09:39 AM

	Originally Posted by Nathanael To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And you feel this is more appropriate? Or you have no feelings on this?

It depends. I feel punishment is acceptable as a legal means. the entire purpose of prison is punishment. Rehabilitation works IMO dependent on the will of an offender to change.

**Aronnax** · 07-04-2012, 10:03 AM

When accepted, a 3rd party tends to act as a moderating influence on retribution cycles. The rule of law yields better results than clan wars and blood debts.

**Tinpusher** · 07-04-2012, 10:57 AM

I certainly like my punishment to be personal. I favour a light whipping, constriction and having hot wax dripped on my back and chest.

**zibber** · 07-04-2012, 11:12 AM

	Originally Posted by Nathanael To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I would love to know how Foucault has influenced the prison industrial complex and our acceptance of it. Please tell.

I love you.

The yes/no discussion is juvenile & moot. Let's follow MF's lead and ponder the history of prisons, the justice system and classification of criminals.

**ipmendy77** · 07-04-2012, 11:15 AM

It's not about revenge, it's about punishment. in the case of the death penalty, we do not execute for revenge, we execute to rid ourselves of the strain they put on society.
(Although i feel the death penalty is unconstitutional under any circumstances.)

07-03-2012, 02:13 PM	#1
Autumnleaf Core Member [227%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 9,097	Is vengeance morally better or worse than a bureaucratic legal system then uses due process to dish out punishment according to the law?
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07-03-2012, 04:23 PM	#2
Grave Member [07%] MBTI: INFP Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 305	They both amount to the same system. A defiling of what is "good" is in due punishment for both. In a society it is a set standard build from a moral system consistent to the society's psychological needs, or a society's will, as a whole--as in this is "good" for the society. So laws are imposed that would be agreed upon by most if not all society members. Breaking the laws would probably not have a psychological impact to someone not personally involved, but it is decidedly "wrong" within the society to commit such a crime. A society then upholds its right or wrongs and may impose them through laws; however, whether you agree with its laws is debatable, and its sole purpose is to uphold the will of the people. Therefore, the people, or in a democratic case, the majority always uphold the right and wrongs; and with this support, we can't argue that it is wrong to punish a criminal to a society, rather would have to argue that the laws are not rightly imposing the will of the people. In personal system, it is not unlike the society system except that you can expect a psychological impact. Since we base something in a society to be wrong on the roots of a psychological level, It begins with crimes committed personally that we start imposing laws.The reason we make these laws is always because more people would agree that if this crime would be committed against them they would feel pain. Pain--psychologically--that we do not want as a society. With this analysis of the two types of punishment, I can answer your question. I do not believe revenge is justifiable, even though I see punishment against a criminal as society's way of revenge, but I think a society has its reason to punish, and that is because it has laws. Whereas someone who thirsts for revenge has a reason to believe an action against him was wrong he did not, unlike the society, have something which shows his reason for punishment. Because I think it like this: A psychological impact gives you reason to believe something is wrong; Laws give you reason to punish.
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07-03-2012, 04:35 PM	#3
JC22 Core Member [112%] MBTI: xxxx Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,509	Seeking vengeance makes you just as bad a evil-doers. Punishment is made up of two things. (1) consequence (2) learning otherwise consequence without a learning period is just torture. and if we do that were does that leave us?
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07-03-2012, 09:00 PM	#6
sunitaishot Suspended MBTI: ENTJ Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 3,572	Society is too infused with these Eastern-based forgiveness principles. Why is it wrong necessarily to seek vengeance? Our views on the treatment of criminals are influenced by modern philosophy/morality anyhow.
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07-04-2012, 07:02 AM	#10
topquark Member [20%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 839	Revenge - personal or state-sanctioned - is pointless and wrong. The only role of the penal system should be to remove dangerous people from society and provide a deterrent to crime.
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07-04-2012, 10:03 AM	#15
Aronnax Core Member [103%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 4,142	When accepted, a 3rd party tends to act as a moderating influence on retribution cycles. The rule of law yields better results than clan wars and blood debts. Last edited by Aronnax; 07-04-2012 at 10:36 AM. Reason: clarity
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07-04-2012, 10:57 AM	#16
Tinpusher Member [03%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 140	I certainly like my punishment to be personal. I favour a light whipping, constriction and having hot wax dripped on my back and chest.
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07-04-2012, 11:15 AM	#18
ipmendy77 New Member [01%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 66	It's not about revenge, it's about punishment. in the case of the death penalty, we do not execute for revenge, we execute to rid ourselves of the strain they put on society. (Although i feel the death penalty is unconstitutional under any circumstances.)
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