[AlfredSchnittke]

I often wonder where the line is.

If you are intelligent, you think about these things right? You think about what life is like for someone born female if you are male, or male if you are born female...is that correct? You make observations about how men and women interact and live in society. Some, especially INTJ's who are fearlessly independent, probably indulge in many behaviors that are stereotypically in the "opposite" category. Maybe you can't be taken seriously because of your gender though...it happens all the time to me. If you look at the world as being made up only of "persons" then you'll notice that many people get extra privileges of various kinds based on their "biological starting point", and if you aren't starting from a starting point that gives you the privileges you'd like, then what do you do? Lets' put it very basically, women have the privilege of being perceived to be pretty in public, and men have the privilege of being perceived as strong. What if you find yourself a male, but want to be perceived as pretty...you can't do it. So are you just intellectually aggravated, or are you transgendered?

Maybe you come to some kind of independent conclusion about which is better to be. What if you conclusion is that it would be better the opposite of what you happen to be.

Does that make you transgendered?

Where is the line? Can you go get brain scans done to see if you actually are transgendered?

[Valiyn]

Technically yes, as any gender variance falls under the transgender umbrella, it included everything from transsexuality to tomboys.

But I think you're looking for something deeper then that. Yes, it can actually be identified with a high percent accuracy through brain scans - but it's not perfect and it's costly. At the end of the day, the best way is to simply ask yourself how at home you feel in your own body or general gender roles and gender expression like you're doing.

Common signs of transsexuality are things like depression hitting around puberty - when you start shifting into the incorrect sex. And incorrectly mapped genital sensitivity - like the penis not reacting to normal stimulation and responding better to stimulation meant for different genital configuration (e.g. using the inguinal canal (you know, the little diagonal canals to the sides of your testes), you can sort of “penetrate” the inguinal canal with your finger which for a trans woman is more sensitive and pleasurable then stimulating the penis shaft directly.))

For more general transgenderism, like crossdressing, that aren't medical.....I haven't a clue what to look for outside of "enjoyability". It's a big umbrella and they don't overlap.

[CrudeHypothesis]

I once did a little thought experiment. It was just a passing thought, but I wondered what the female equivalent of myself would be. I pretty much concluded that my female equivalent would make my ideal girlfriend, lol.

[NiTe Visor]

I'm a fully straight male and even I like to be perceived as 'pretty'. I am good looking and I think it's important for me to stay that way. I try to maintain my body and my face but I'm 100% comfortable being a man and having sex with women. The most 'homo' thing I would do is a MMF threesome. I might not care about my dick touching the other guy's but it depends how hot the girl is lol...

So, are you asking if the most androgynous person is the most intelligent? Doubt it. Is there at least a correlation? Probably to a degree. I think most of this stuff comes from genetics and our environment. Intelligence is something I believe that's driven from introspection. Would a transgendered person be more likely to be driven to introspect? PROBABLY. But again, so would multiracial/cultural people and all of the other types of people that don't fit into society well. So what I'm basically saying is that our genes and our environment can lead us to think about ourselves and how we fit (or don't fit) into society. Not fitting, I think, would be reason to think more. And we all know what thinking does.
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Take myself for instance. I'm 1/4 black and 3/4 white but no one can tell that I have any black in me at all. Not only is my mom half black, but my step dad (who is the only father figure I've had because I don't know my biological father) is too. So I actually identify more as a black person than a white person...in a way. However, it's been kind of a mind fuck my entire life because the outside world doesn't attribute my image to my actual background/upbringing.

[CrudeHypothesis]

I think Asian movie makers are hatching a plot to make western males think looking androgynous is sexy
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[NiTe Visor]

...and by 'pretty' I just meant trying to stay good looking (within the social constraints of males, i.e. I'm not gonna wear eye shadow or makeup...).

[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by AlfredSchnittke To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	<snip> Does that make you transgendered? Where is the line? Can you go get brain scans done to see if you actually are transgendered?

Since most INTJs have the natural freedom of mind when it comes to gender identity (or any societal issue), most of us would be considered mentally androgynous (meaning we belong to neither camp in terms of mental state). I consider myself to be mentally androgynous, but physiologically masculine. I have no desire to change my physiological state.

Transgendered individuals typically are of the opposite gender's mind than what they are physiologically. My girlfriend was born male, but always identified most strongly with stereotypical feminine qualities. She's taking oestrogens and testosterone blockers now, and will undergo a sex change when she can afford the operation.





As for the intelligence issue, it's been shown that people who have relatively low testosterone levels for their sex tend to have higher intelligence.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by AlfredSchnittke To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	women have the privilege of being perceived to be pretty in public, and men have the privilege of being perceived as strong.

Huh?

Are you referring to expectations? Obligations?

---------- Post added 06-17-2012 at 09:31 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by AlfredSchnittke To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Can you go get brain scans done to see if you actually are transgendered?

Only in a fully cisnormative paradigm can someone be "actually transgendered", as if it were a medical diagnosis.

[NiTe Visor]

It is hard, actually. The 'woman' hasn't even had surgery and I'm sure her muscular structure isn't feminine either. I'm sure it isn't hard to spot masculine physical attributes. It's one thing to date a woman that has a bit of a rigid jaw (a masculine feature) or something but to KNOW it's male + masculine and to still be attracted isn't something that represents straight male behavior. If you don't believe me ask a few straight guys if they would marry a transgendered woman. An overwhelming majority will say no.

[Vagrant]

It is hard, actually. The 'woman' hasn't even had surgery and I'm sure her muscular structure isn't feminine either. I'm sure it isn't hard to spot masculine physical attributes. It's one thing to date a woman that has a bit of a rigid jaw (a masculine feature) or something but to KNOW it's male + masculine and to still be attracted isn't something that represents straight male behavior. If you don't believe me ask a few straight guys if they would marry a transgendered woman. An overwhelming majority will say no.

My girlfriend is unidentifiable as being formerly male (unless you're in her pants like I am). She has almost no muscle to speak of and weighs about a hundred pounds. None of her facial features would indicate her as being a former male. She even has an hourglass figure with the right clothes (or naked).

[AlfredSchnittke]

Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

See Valiyn's comment. I see myself as attracted to women, and I'm male. This would make me straight. My girlfriend is unidentifiable as being formerly male (unless you're in her pants like I am). She has almost no muscle to speak of and weighs about a hundred pounds. None of her facial features would indicate her as being a former male. She even has an hourglass figure with the right clothes (or naked).

Do you enjoy sucking her cock?

I don't mean to be rude, but that's what everyone wants to know.

I admit, I am curious myself.

I've had sex with a guy, but I didn't like it. Most specifically because of the cock. I can't imagine female penises being any more enjoyable for me, but maybe for you they are?

[Valiyn]

	Originally Posted by NiTe Visor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It is hard, actually.

Only if you have cis privilege.

	The 'woman' hasn't even had surgery and I'm sure her muscular structure isn't feminine either.

Get those air quotes off woman. Trans women are women and you do not get to invalidate our identity as such.

	I'm sure it isn't hard to spot masculine physical attributes.

Actually it is. The stereotype of a "dude in a dress" is completely wrong. While it varies from individual to individual and what age they go on hormones, it's indistinguishable for most if not borderlining all.

	It's one thing to date a woman that has a bit of a rigid jaw (a masculine feature) or something but to KNOW it's male + masculine and to still be attracted isn't something that represents straight male behavior.

To know it's male? Do I need to get out my biology textbook and start wacking? What your coersively assigned at birth is not what sex or gender you are. It is in no more real then what you live your life as.

	If you don't believe me ask a few straight guys if they would marry a transgendered woman. An overwhelming majority will say no.

That is bigotry, not sexual orientation. Seeing a trans woman as male (or not female) is nothing more then transphobia and has nothing to do with being straight.

	Originally Posted by AlfredSchnittke To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do you enjoy sucking her cock?

Unless she's in the minority, trying to give a blowjob to a clit-on-a-stick like you would to a cis-male's penis doesn't work. Instead of asking someone on the forum about their sex life, how about you go to
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discussing sex and trans women?

[NiTe Visor]

This person is biologically male. The only feminine thing about them is their mentality. 'She' has to take hormones for pete's sake. Since when does a person's sex concern anything other than biology? You're confusing gender for sex.

[Valiyn]

	Originally Posted by NiTe Visor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This person is biologically male. The only feminine thing about them is their mentality.

Citation needed that trans women are biologically male.
Citation needed that the only thing feminine about us is our mentality.

Also stop with the air quotes on things like 'she' and 'woman' as though our identities are pretend, it's insulting.

[NiTe Visor]

The trans woman I've been talking about is male. And if ur body isn't female, what else can be other than the mind? What else is there?

[AlfredSchnittke]

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Unless she's in the minority, trying to give a blowjob to a clit-on-a-stick like you would to a cis-male's penis doesn't work. Instead of asking someone on the forum about their sex life, how about you go to To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. discussing sex and trans women?

Why? I come to this forum (and all such forums) specifically to be able to ask actual people in real situations these kinds of questions.

I would just read blogs if that's what I wanted to do. Asking real people and getting live responses is much more interesting to me.

[Saggita]

I kind of agree with NiTe Visor that (some) transwomen are biologically male because male is about sex. They are women however, as women is about gender... I had a whole discussion about this, and I sincerely hope MechanicalSun don't show up in this thread because I am out of cupcakes.

[Valiyn]

	Originally Posted by NiTe Visor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The trans woman I've been talking about is male.

Trans women aren't male.
If you wish to continue spouting ignorance, cite some sources for these transphobic claims.

	And if ur body isn't female, what else can be other than the mind? What else is there?

Hormones, hormone receptors, chromosomes (if intersexed or a chimera), genitalia, secondary sex characteristics, gender identity, gender expression, neurobiology, nervous system, 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency (5alpha-RD-2), 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency (17beta-HSD-3), and more.

Do I need to break out the Bilaterally Gynandromorphic Chickens for a quick biology lesson above the high school level because you're just extremely ignorant on the subject from the looks of things so far. Trans women are not "biologically male".

[Indubitably]

	Originally Posted by NiTe Visor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This person is biologically male. The only feminine thing about them is their mentality. 'She' has to take hormones for pete's sake. Since when does a person's sex concern anything other than biology? You're confusing gender for sex.

Well, in Valiyn's defense, she doesn't feel "merely" female gendered, she feels female sexed. The easiest way to think about it is a female brain in a male body. Granted, that is a rather gross over simplification of the situation, but then, thinking about sex as absolutely binary is a gross over simplification in the first place. The exact figure is debated, but I think its pretty safe to say that roughly 1% of the population is intersexed in some fashion. If you think about it, if you live in a major city there could easily be as many as 250 intersexed people living within a mile of your home. It isn't always externally visible, but these people most certainly do exist, and they are our neighbors whether we like it or not, so we might as well start getting used to it. If Valiyn is guilty of anything here, its perpetuating the myth that only two clearly defined sexes exist, by buying into the expectation that trans women must either be absolutely female sexed or absolutely male sexed. You can hardly blame her fo that though, since she more or less has to live with the fact that almost everyone she is going to meet in her daily life doesn't even get that there is a difference between gender and sex, never mind the fact that there are many more than two sexes, and its not like they are going to accept that she is "trans female" sexed and female gendered, never mind understand that such a person has a right to exist as they are. Her mind is clearly female, and her brain is more or less the same brain that an XX female would have, so what exactly is she supposed to call her sex? I mean, if aliens came down one day and transplanted your brain into an XX female body, and then asked you to pick either one sex or the other, what would you do? Everything that you understand about what it means to be you is all tangled up in the idea that you are male sexed, but now your body is otherwise identical to the average female body, and its pumping all sort of crazy female hormones into your male brain, so now you are a man who gets moody once a month and has a biological clock that is telling him to pop out babies like there is no tomorrow, but it turns out that you are still only attracted to women and still feel like your sex is male. Its not as simple as just mixing up gender and sex, these people have a right to be who they are, and they are trying to do that, but we simply refuse to accept anything but male sexed with male gender and female sexed with female gendered. If you ask Valiyn "which sex are you", of course she is going to answer female, because that is the sex her brain is telling her she is supposed to be, and you haven't given her any alternative other than "male".

[NiTe Visor]

Everything you just said is irrelevant. The person is not purely feminine. Masculinity attracts femininity and vice versa. To be transgendered is to lack masculinity or femininity. Bottom line. How could a lack of feminine qualities attract masculinity? It wouldn't. Common sense and that's all there is to say. Start the argument where it starts. That biology mumbo jumbo has no purpose in a common sense argument.

Edit: that was to Valiyn

[AlfredSchnittke]

I don't get the gender/sex distinction exactly.

It seems a bit mystical.

Why when someone has "male genitals" we say they are "male sexed" but when someone has a "male brain" we say they are "male gendered"?...

Aren't they both organs/part of the body?...

[NiTe Visor]

^Cuz they can be mismatched with the norm.

[Indubitably]

Originally Posted by NiTe Visor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Everything you just said is irrelevant. The person is not purely feminine. Masculinity attracts femininity and vice versa. To be transgendered is to lack masculinity or femininity. Bottom line. How could a lack of feminine qualities attract masculinity? It wouldn't. Common sense and that's all there is to say. Start the argument where it starts. That biology mumbo jumbo has no purpose in a common sense argument.

ORLY? Well, as it turns out, I can play that game too....


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As is clearly evidenced by the boot on my head, your point is moot and your argument is invalid. If you cannot see the absolute incontrovertibility of my boot, you must obviously be blind, and blind people are always wrong, therefore I win. Thank you and good day sir.


Edit:

	Originally Posted by NiTe Visor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Edit: that was to Valiyn

I shal rest on the laurels of the boot meme none the less.

[Vagrant]

Originally Posted by NiTe Visor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It is hard, actually. The 'woman' hasn't even had surgery and I'm sure her muscular structure isn't feminine either. I'm sure it isn't hard to spot masculine physical attributes. It's one thing to date a woman that has a bit of a rigid jaw (a masculine feature) or something but to KNOW it's male + masculine and to still be attracted isn't something that represents straight male behavior. If you don't believe me ask a few straight guys if they would marry a transgendered woman. An overwhelming majority will say no.

I asked for her permission to post her picture.

( Show Spoiler )

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	Do you enjoy sucking her cock?

I do it now and then just out of curiosity. I have no particular displeasure or enjoyment from it.

	Masculinity attracts femininity and vice versa. To be transgendered is to lack masculinity or femininity.

Oh dear, you've got a couple of people to meet.

[Indubitably]

	Originally Posted by AlfredSchnittke To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't get the gender/sex distinction exactly. It seems a bit mystical. Why when someone has "male genitals" we say they are "male sexed" but when someone has a "male brain" we say they are "male gendered"?... Aren't they both organs/part of the body?...

Generally speaking, gender refers to social function, where as sex is a biological distinction based on reproductive function as dictated by chromosomal constitution, which we barrow in this context to represent the secondary physical characteristics most frequently occurring in conjunction with those chromosomes. As I understand it, gender identity is developed very early in gestation, and the brain of a trans woman winds up looking much more like a female brain than a male brain in some very significant ways, despite the influence of male hormones. Basically, a trans woman doesn't just wake up one day and decide that she's going to give that whole woman thing a whirl because men get the short end of the stick; her brain has effectively developed as a female brain at some very fundamental level, and she feels like a woman because that is what her brain was built to think she is.