[Shahira]

I can be a ditz sometimes and that does happen to me a lot. At first I'll just say no if they keep on pestering me then I'll just say go away. If the guy doesn't go away that's when I start getting rude and tell them to fuck off. If the guy doesn't go then (this doesn't happen most of the time) I'll then start insulting them or start making a scene. Everyone starts staring and then they'll just run away. One time last year a guy actually slapped my arse to get my attention when I was ignoring him. I went MENTAL. I started shouting and screaming like there was no tomorrow. I was like; "Why are you fucking touching me? Did I say you can touch me? Who said you can touch me motherfucker? Why you getting close to me? Back the fuck away!!" He actually tried to touch me AGAIN. That's when I slapped him and kneed him in the groin. This all happened in a McDonalds restaurant. They banned me. Said I was disturbing the customers. Bastards. I still go there sometimes, they don't remember who I am.
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[Nicole1975]

Originally Posted by Samia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I can be a ditz sometimes and that does happen to me a lot. At first I'll just say no if they keep on pestering me then I'll just say go away. If the guy doesn't go away that's when I start getting rude and tell them to fuck off. If the guy doesn't go then (this doesn't happen most of the time) I'll then start insulting them or start making a scene. Everyone starts staring and then they'll just run away. One time last year a guy actually slapped my arse to get my attention when I was ignoring him. I went MENTAL. I started shouting and screaming like there was no tomorrow. I was like; "Why are you fucking touching me? Did I say you can touch me? Who said you can touch me motherfucker? Why you getting close to me? Back the fuck away!!" He actually tried to touch me AGAIN. That's when I slapped him and kneed him in the groin. This all happened in a McDonalds restaurant. They banned me. Said I was disturbing the customers. Bastards. I still go there sometimes, they don't remember who I am. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

WTF about the guy who was disturbing you? That's what I hate, other people always take the guy's side. I had a guy trying to talk to me on the street one time and I was walking away tell him to go away and he grabbed my ass. I turned around and in one quick swoop dropped my backpack and SLUGGED him in the gut. He turned white then ran. I ran after him cuz I wanted to hit him more. I was so pissed.

How can people say we don't still live in a sexist society when this shit happens? When YOU were told you were in the wrong and it's ok for men to act like that? When women tell me shit like "but he likes you-you should be grateful someone likes you" when I'm screaming that I'm not interested in a guy and I want his full name and address... I want a restraining order.

---------- Post added 06-14-2012 at 06:43 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Esrevinu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Although I do enjoy size 0's because of the ease with which you can throw them around, I would never say that to someone. I'd make up some bullshit excuse.

Is that their appeal? Men want to throw women around?

We still live in a sexist society!!!!!!!!

---------- Post added 06-14-2012 at 06:47 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That advice is so creepy and sleazy and so much worse than just "arguing" against no. Rather than no being the start of a negotiation, here it becomes the start of a covert fucking operation.

I think it might work on naive girls like in their 20s, but as a 36 year old woman getting hit on by men that wreak of grandpa, it ain't gonna work on me.

[Zephyranthes]

So what means yes? How should a male be the aggressor and face rejection if rejection means "not happening ever"? I should just go out and try stuff with dozens of women in the hopes that one of them doesn't say no? Dating is nothing but luck?

[Distance]

Originally Posted by wolfyx To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Here is an advice for guys that I have found out after sufficient trial and error. The best thing to do is to take the “No” as a “No”, absolutely no arguing about it. You act like it’s not a big deal and change the topic of the discussion. Then you tell her that you like her as a friend and you can hang out as friends. Usually there is less likely to get a “No!” to a “Let’s just be friends!”. Then you meet her circle of friends and, if you don’t mess up, you are on the right track. You can get closer to her in that social context, you are no longer a stranger, she is less likely to say “No!”. If she says “No” again act as it’s not a big deal and play “friends”. Usually this cannot go on more then 2-3 “No” but the point is not to get your door shut after the first “No” and to get the chance to know her.

Can't stand guys like this who keep coming onto you when you're supposed to be friends. It gets my back up far worse than the guy who's persistent, since it's such a blatant attempt at deceptive and manipulative behaviour. The 'nice guy' syndrome where he gets butt-hurt in the end.

	Arguing will almost never work on normal people because very few people, especially women, are extreme Ti, to think rationally about their emotions.

Oh sure, Ti's the only rational cognitive function. Better run off and tell Jung how very, very wrong he is.
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[Nicole1975]

	Originally Posted by Zephyranthes To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So what means yes? How should a male be the aggressor and face rejection if rejection means "not happening ever"? I should just go out and try stuff with dozens of women in the hopes that one of them doesn't say no? Dating is nothing but luck?

Um yes means yes. If you are REALISTIC about what you are looking for within the realm of what would date you, you shouldn't have a problem. Women don't want overweight/fat men. They don't want broke men who ask them to pay (sometimes dutch is ok, but women don't want to hear from men, I can't afford to pay for myself if we go out.) They want age appropriate men. Women like tall men, or at least taller than themselves.

The further you are away from what we want, the further away you get from what you want. FOR EXAMPLE: if you are 35, 5-4 and weigh 230 pounds and you want a girl who's a size 0 with big boobs that dresses like a prostitute in public, you're gonna have some competition and well........ she is not going to settle for you. It's no different from the situation where a woman I knew was about 45, unemployed and not pretty liked a guy in his early 30's and she was going to try to get someone to set them up. The Jews are usually sexist and I'm sure they laughed in her face. I stopped hearing about it so I'll bet they did and she was so embarrassed. He wanted her about as much as I want a Russian immigrant 30 years older than me.

---------- Post added 06-14-2012 at 09:27 AM ----------

So how you get someone is pick someone ON YOUR LEVEL. Talk to her a bit. Ask to FB her. Chat with her when she's online and then ask her out... "hey would you like to get a coffee and talk about this more in person?" FB is great because you can scour it for common interests to bring up.

Then keep her by not acting like a jackass. I've had men who play right enough to get me but they start acting like a jerk and I give them the boot.

[frontaLobotomy]

If a girl says no, then that's that, surely?

Even if they're playing, what's done is done. "No" is a difficult word to say for a lot of people, so I view it as significant when they do. On the other hand, I have seen rapey types persist even when a girl has both shunned them, and even looks visibly creeped out by their advances. It can happen the other way around too, it's just as awkward <shrug>

[scorpiomover]

	Originally Posted by Nicole1975 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I was just thinking about how this has happened to me... OMG TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many times! I tell a guy "no" and he starts with like "why not?" and he sits there and argues with me. Dude, this will NEVER ever get anywhere with me. I'd like thoughts and experiences. Anyone know of a scenario where it worked? Maybe it works on those ditzy bimbo types?

When I was in uni, it worked all the time, for the guys who did it.

I remember that one of the girls I was friendly with, who was really hot, was drunk one night, and some guy was all over her, and her over him. The next day, I heard that she was saying he was such a sleaze, and it was sooo horrible. I thought she meant it, and so she was only with him that time, because she was drunk. The next week, the same guy was all over her, and just like before, she was really into it.

That was pretty much par for the course, then, and when I saw girls after.

These days, I know that if a woman really bitches about how sleazy a guy is, odds on, she'll be with him soon, and she'll be the one all over him.

[Muse]

Originally Posted by Nicole1975 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I've seen your picture, you're not that bad looking. Most of the guys that do this are either, A) ghetto (which I doubt you are) or B) WAAAAAY too old. That's the thing that gets me is these are men so out of my/the girl's league that it's bad enough that they even ask, let alone argue it. I wouldn't expect you to do this because you don't seem like a man NO ONE wants.... those are the men that do this.

While I appreciate the compliment, it makes me feel a little sad when considering the thread topic. I guess it is because I tend to think there is much more to people, but I know that there sometimes isn't. There are guys and girls who just want something (sex, attention, social status, etc) and the "hello, what's your name?" (and everything that follows) becomes less about knowing you and more about getting something from you with those individuals. Like you get put in a box right away. A lot of the extreme and sexualized behaviors women are mentioning here (slapping her ass etc) are telltale of that, just like there are a few signs for guys to look out for too.

You can't really have a close friendship like that, so you couldn't really have a close relationship either.

I find it pretty strange that people ask each other out on a date or make sexual advances right away too. I think "you don't really know them though?.." physical attraction is a real thing, but making choices based on it isn't a great idea for getting to know the right people.

I focus on getting to know people regardless of gender or looks. Result is I have pretty much half and half friends for female/male, and I think it helps in having a healthy view about these sorts of things.

[Shahira]

Originally Posted by Nicole1975 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

WTF about the guy who was disturbing you? That's what I hate, other people always take the guy's side. I had a guy trying to talk to me on the street one time and I was walking away tell him to go away and he grabbed my ass. I turned around and in one quick swoop dropped my backpack and SLUGGED him in the gut. He turned white then ran. I ran after him cuz I wanted to hit him more. I was so pissed. How can people say we don't still live in a sexist society when this shit happens? When YOU were told you were in the wrong and it's ok for men to act like that? When women tell me shit like "but he likes you-you should be grateful someone likes you" when I'm screaming that I'm not interested in a guy and I want his full name and address... I want a restraining order

They were all like are you alright? Ect after they asked him to leave. I don't know whether he was banned or not. I didn't report it to the police because I didn't think they'll take it seriously. Anyway, he got what he deserved. Good on you for doing that!!
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Yes, that's what some women say to me when I tell them if I've been harrassed while I was out. There's nothing to be grateful for. Why would anyone want to be seen as public property? Something to be ogled at and touched. I went out earlier and was kinda wearing a tight top. Some guys were calling and telling me to sit with them when I went to the park. I had my headphones in and pretended I couldn't hear them. The "boys", I'm not going to call them men, that usually do this are ghetto but the ages vary. I usually get called "baby girl" or "sexy girl". Its disgusting. We do live in a sexist society and denying would be just plain silly.

[Hydro]

At least they could have used their iPhone or whatever to google "boyfriend destroyer".
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Has anyone of you ever experienced this?
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Maybe with your current boyfriend?
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[Muse]

"Ghetto" behavior is being mentioned a lot. Perhaps these things mostly happen in a less desirable area or town?

[AnnaMolly]

Originally Posted by Hydro To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

At least they could have used their iPhone or whatever to google "boyfriend destroyer". To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Has anyone of you ever experienced this? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Maybe with your current boyfriend? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I once made the mistake of googling that after having read the word here on intjf.

I'd rather not again feel the sensation of simultaneously vomiting and laughing so hard I can't breathe.

[Hydro]

	Originally Posted by AnnaMolly To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I once made the mistake of googling that after having read the word here on intjf. I'd rather not again feel the sensation of simultaneously vomiting and laughing so hard I can't breathe.

Well, the question was more if you have experienced it once and not if you might have googled it once, wasn't it?

[RedN]

well, yeah... im that hot that a guy just cant stop trying to get to me... why feel bad about it eh...

unless you look so horrifying or as retarded as fuck, then ill have to call security...

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by RedN To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	well, yeah... im that hot that a guy just cant stop trying to get to me... why feel bad about it eh... unless you look so horrifying or as retarded as fuck, then ill have to call security...

Since when is having to reject anyone a fun task? Add in that not only do you have to reject them once which is suckage indeed, you have to keep rejecting them.

It's an inflicted responsibility that's annoying as fuck.

[wolfyx]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Can't stand guys like this who keep coming onto you when you're supposed to be friends. It gets my back up far worse than the guy who's persistent, since it's such a blatant attempt at deceptive and manipulative behaviour. The 'nice guy' syndrome where he gets butt-hurt in the end.

I think you misunderstood the context I was referring to. An example:

I get this beautiful and bitchy girls number in a club and we go on the first date. The date goes well but at the end she tells me that “She’s not that into me”. I tell her it’s ok, I still think she is a nice person and we should hang out as friends. A week later we decide to meet in in a club. I bring a guy friend and she is with a couple of girlfriends. We talk and have a good time and everything is great. At the end of the night she is all over me. At the next date I sleep with her.

So the point I was referring to is giving a girl you just met the chance to know you. Everyone is a stranger in the beginning and its human nature to be reluctant to strangers. Most “good” girls are not into ONS, they want to “know” the guy before they sleep with him. By being “friends” you will get in a context where you will get “social validation” from her friends, which is great and can turn the odds in your favor.

I personally never had a problem with the “friend’s zone” that so many guys are complaining about. I am absolutely ok being friends with a girl I am attracted to but I will never be her “girlfriend”. I will be her “male friend”. I am not a “nice guy” and I prefer having “options” instead of obsessing over this one girl.

[Muse]

Originally Posted by wolfyx To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I get this beautiful and bitchy girls number in a club and we go on the first date. The date goes well but at the end she tells me that “She’s not that into me”. I tell her it’s ok, I still think she is a nice person and we should hang out as friends. A week later we decide to meet in in a club. I bring a guy friend and she is with a couple of girlfriends. We talk and have a good time and everything is great. At the end of the night she is all over me. At the next date I sleep with her. So the point I was referring to is giving a girl you just met the chance to know you. Everyone is a stranger in the beginning and its human nature to be reluctant to strangers. Most “good” girls are not into ONS, they want to “know” the guy before they sleep with him. By being “friends” you will get in a context where you will get “social validation” from her friends, which is great and can turn the odds in your favor. I personally never had a problem with the “friend’s zone” that so many guys are complaining about. I am absolutely ok being friends with a girl I am attracted to but I will never be her “girlfriend”. I will be her “male friend”. I am not a “nice guy” and I prefer having “options” instead of obsessing over this one girl.

This situation has played out the same way for me many times too, and I didn't even intend for it to happen. I also don't see a big problem with the "friend zone" if they actually are friendly. Friends are awesome, and usually if you are awesome they will become attracted to you. If not, still have a good friend
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It's all about being willing to interact and communicate I think. That's key. Expectations and a certain structure is just too much. If you were interested enough to date them, I would say they should probably be interesting enough to make a decent friend too.

Half my friends are female because it just happened like that. Has been ever since pre-school. My first kiss was in pre-school too. Two girls that were fighting over (somewhat oblivious) me. A blonde and a red head
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. I had no concept of what a relationship is, I figured they just liked to compete. I mostly wanted to play games like Indians or war. Weird thing to remember but ya, I guess i'm just not too shy and see the other gender as people, like me.

[gecko]

Originally Posted by Nicole1975 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I had a guy trying to talk to me on the street one time and I was walking away tell him to go away and he grabbed my ass. I turned around and in one quick swoop dropped my backpack and SLUGGED him in the gut. He turned white then ran. I ran after him cuz I wanted to hit him more. I was so pissed. How can people say we don't still live in a sexist society when this shit happens? When YOU were told you were in the wrong and it's ok for men to act like that? When women tell me shit like "but he likes you-you should be grateful someone likes you" when I'm screaming that I'm not interested in a guy and I want his full name and address... I want a restraining order.

Women have grabbed my ass without consent. I have been slapped in the face, too, undeserved, I say. On neither of these occasions did I feel any desire to violently retaliate. I would also likely be in big, big trouble if I did.

[teri]

I realize that I actually prefer persistent guys. (As long as they are not the type who come across as creepy or scare me). But, if a normal guy asks me out, I will probably nearly always say no at first ( I mean I cannot see myself going out with someone I hardly know, add to that the fact that a lot of guys maybe just want a little fun....). But, if the guy takes the rejection well, continues coming around (ok, so the majority of my social interactions are with customers....) Acting civil, friendly and a bit flirty; I would probably say yes after awhile. So, my point is that if a stranger or near stranger asks me out, I will provably say no. But the fact that he has signaled interest in me will pique my interest and I will begin to consider going out with him. If he is somewhat persistent, then that persistence will show me that he is probably interested in more than just a short or one time fling, so I would be more likely to say yes after getting to know him a bit more. Hmm.... I guess this is why I have been going for salesmen lately- they are more likely to try and figure out what the problem is (the fact that I do not know them well enough to feel comfortable) and then work to overcome that problem.

I love when people post questions on INTJ forum that force me to realize things about my own or others behavior.

[Muse]

Originally Posted by teri To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I realize that I actually prefer persistent guys. (As long as they are not the type who come across as creepy or scare me). But, if a normal guy asks me out, I will probably nearly always say no at first ( I mean I cannot see myself going out with someone I hardly know, add to that the fact that a lot of guys maybe just want a little fun....). But, if the guy takes the rejection well, continues coming around (ok, so the majority of my social interactions are with customers....) Acting civil, friendly and a bit flirty; I would probably say yes after awhile. So, my point is that if a stranger or near stranger asks me out, I will provably say no. But the fact that he has signaled interest in me will pique my interest and I will begin to consider going out with him. If he is somewhat persistent, then that persistence will show me that he is probably interested in more than just a short or one time fling, so I would be more likely to say yes after getting to know him a bit more. Hmm.... I guess this is why I have been going for salesmen lately- they are more likely to try and figure out what the problem is (the fact that I do not know them well enough to feel comfortable) and then work to overcome that problem. I love when people post questions on INTJ forum that force me to realize things about my own or others behavior.

What if, after talking in public upon first meeting for 20minutes or so (and it goes pretty well), he or you has to go and asks if you would like to meet up for coffee sometime to talk more?

[Nicole1975]

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"Ghetto" behavior is being mentioned a lot. Perhaps these things mostly happen in a less desirable area or town?

I've def seen it happen in the ghetto but recently most of the guys doing it to me have been Russian Jews-often very old ones. The girls dress like hookers so I know what their culture is like... VERY sexist.

[Fecal McAngry]

	Originally Posted by Nicole1975 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I was just thinking about how this has happened to me... OMG TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many times! I tell a guy "no" and he starts with like "why not?" and he sits there and argues with me.

Was he an ENTP?

[Indubitably]

Originally Posted by Saggita To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You do know about enthusiastic consent, no? It's not about no means no, but yes means yes. It can appear to be the same thing, but the latter has the concept that only yes or anything that might be interpreted as an enthusiastic yes means consent, whereas in no means no, anything that is not a no can be regarded as consent. When a women say she's busy, or wants for a men to wait for a week, she's not very enthusiastic about it, is she? Even if she's playing games, what I said still stands. The default should be respecting her space and her spoken desires, because no one can read minds, and if a man feels entitled to keep trying even though he does not have her consent, for any reason, that's really a man I don't want to hang out with. Or no one should hang out with in the first place.

I'm all for women owning what they want and making it known, but this sounds dangerous to me. Not in the sense that a woman is somehow responsible for a guy who thinks his expectations entitle him to her compliance, but because women definitely do need to know how to say no, when they mean no. Women and men are both human beings, and expectations don't entitle either party to anything. Yes mean yes, no means no, maybe means maybe, and "I have to wash my hair tonight" means, "I have to wash my hair tonight", no more or less either way, and by saying something vague you very much are passing the buck to other person, to interpret as they see fit, regardless of gender. Otherwise you basically just encourage women to be the female version of the "nice guy", and trust me, they do exist. Its just that the "nice girl" is called "considerate" or "sweet", because the cultural norm is for women to be submissive and emotionally invested, but she is no more or less manipulative and passive aggressive in doing so than the "nice guy".

I've seen it more times than I can count, the nice girl takes a shining to some guy and then takes it upon herself to psychically predict his needs and have them met before he even asks. Maybe the guy doesn't want to be an asshole, or he doesn't want to insult her generosity by assuming that she's only being nice because she expects to get something out of it, or he's just plain not the kind of guy who ever really bought into playing that whole culturally obligated mutual manipulation game in the first place, so he simply accepts her kindness at face value. So she waits, and she pines, and she tries harder and harder, tallying each "favor" in the hope that one day he'll eventually just sort of owe her so many favors that he can't help but notice how she feels and fall madly in love with her. But he never does, and he never would, because that was never how he operated in the first place, and she starts to feel more and more victimized by the mere fact that he is not the man that the game promised her.

She played by all the rules; she traded in her voice, and her personal agency, and her right to choose the man she wanted rather than the man she was supposed to want, all for the promise of a man that would sweep her off her feet and whisk her away to a magical land where she would be a fairy tale princess. She put her faith in promises he never made to her, promises that she was entitled to special treatment for all the things she had sacrificed in his name. Now that its clear that he isn't prince charming, rather than realizing that the mistake was in the culturally normative assumption that he was obligated to see things her way, she simply labels him manipulative, and an asshole. Some girls will simply retreat to lick their wounds and wallow in self pity, while they attempt to elevate their social significance through self martyrdom by regailing their friends with woeful tales of the horribly abusive would-be-boyfriend who "took advantage" of their "selfless kindness". Others will promptly go about directly attempting to force him into the game whether he knows it or not, by exacting "remuneration" for their "investment", through inflicting as much emotional and social damage as possible. Either way it tends to get very ugly, very fast, and the guy is left completely blindsided by utterly baseless accusations being made by someone he probably though of as a friend.

The only difference is when the "nice guy" who considers himself to be prince charming does it, there is a greater chance that he will retaliate with physical violence personally, instead of merely defaming her or attempting to incite violence through a third party. Regardless of which gender does it though, it comes back to this idea of trading in some form of personal freedom so they can rid themselves of the uncomfortable responsibility of owning their own feelings and expectations. A woman's mind is her own, and her voice is her own, but it is not enough for her to simply sit back and passively presume psychic compliance with her expectations, any more than it is enough for a man to do the same; she has to claim her voice by speaking her mind. If what you mean is "no", then say "no", not "I'm busy", or "maybe", or "I have to check my date book", and if you mean "yes" then say "yes". Likewise, it is a man's job to take responsibility for his own expectations, instead of pushing them off on the woman with some horseshit story about the diabolical psychic voodoo mind control powers of a leopard print skirt, or how "lobster" means "grab my ass on the way out the door" in the ancient japnese art of seafood arrangement; and if he means to say, "not unless it gets me into your pants" then he needs to say, "not unless it gets me into your pants", not "yes", or "maybe", or "I'll make time because I'm such a nice guy".

Its not a question of which person should get to just assume that the other party be psychic. The onus is on both people to take responsibility for their own expectations and speak their own mind honestly, because both people are competant responsible human beings, nothing more, nothing less. Basically, either your words stand on their own or they don't stand at all. Regardless of gender a clear rejection is a clear rejection (seriously, if you ask me, Samia has the right idea, punch the guy in the gut and yell and scream like a lunatic if he doesn't get the picture), a clear confirmation is a clear confirmation, and a maybe is precisely neither but potentially either.

[Esrevinu]

	Originally Posted by Nicole1975 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is that their appeal? Men want to throw women around? We still live in a sexist society!!!!!!!!

Of a zero? Yes, it is certainly one of their many appeals. People of all shapes and sizes have various physical appeals. Its sexist? The different ways 2 consenting adults enjoy themselves is sexist? Variety is nice, I get the feeling you think your own belief structure represents the way all women feel. Thats some tunnel vision right there! I wouldn't tell you to go away because you're a size ten. If your personality is reflected in person as much as it is on this forum, I would tell you to go away based on that! But then again I understand that I don't speak for all men. So you will most certainly find someone eventually.


Edit: So you will most certainly find someone eventually (that is not a "creepy foreigner who can't speak english well")

[Saggita]

Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm all for women owning what they want and making it known, but this sounds dangerous to me. Not in the sense that a woman is somehow responsible for a guy who thinks his expectations entitle him to her compliance, but because women definitely do need to know how to say no, when they mean no. Women and men are both human beings, and expectations don't entitle either party to anything. Yes mean yes, no means no, maybe means maybe, and "I have to wash my hair tonight" means, "I have to wash my hair tonight", no more or less either way, and by saying something vague you very much are passing the buck to other person, to interpret as they see fit, regardless of gender. Otherwise you basically just encourage women to be the female version of the "nice guy", and trust me, they do exist. Its just that the "nice girl" is called "considerate" or "sweet", because the cultural norm is for women to be submissive and emotionally invested, but she is no more or less manipulative and passive aggressive in doing so than the "nice guy".

I wasn't saying that women shouldn't learn how to express themselves correctly -- because I do know some women don't... But consent, or not having consent, it's not really forever, and some people need to learn to respect semantics a little bit and accept that no means no, yes means yes, and "I will wash my hair tonight" doesn't mean "have sex with me on the shower", and "another time" should mean "another time" and you shouldn't argue to have your way this time.

I do advocate women to speak clearly their minds, and I speak my mind myself, but what's on topic here is that some people don't respect what women say with the excuse of "playing games" and such, when that's not really right. I think communication has two parts where both have to work a little to make what they want to communicate understandable and to understand the other part.

Though I believe it's very wrong to think the default is that all women doesn't really mean what they say. That is not the default for men, even though some women coerce and guilt trip just as men do.

I agree with you, basically.