[Maybe to Dream]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Instability in countries tends to cause discomfort outside the countries also. Any revolution causes serious instability, at least in the short term... and these days, people dislike the death toll that instability usually results in.

But that's just it. If Assad has the support of most of the population then it's not a revolution.

The nation-rebuilding efforts are going to be a dismal failure so the least people can do is make sure that the Syrians really do want Assad gone.

Overthrowing a leader that people are mostly happy with to prop up another unpopular government will just add fuel to the Anti-American sentiments we're already seeing indications of in the Muslim world.

[Zsych]

*lacking knowledge here* That sounds fair. Sometimes you just need to convince / suppress the leaders of the other side.

[Nomatterwhat]

Jesus is prettier than Muhammed

[Nonsuch]

	Originally Posted by Nomatterwhat To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Jesus is prettier than Muhammed

Really ? Why don't you post their pictures here so we can see ?


To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Nomatterwhat]

	Originally Posted by Nonsuch To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Really ? Why don't you post their pictures here so we can see ? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A 30ish year old texan actually told me that, he didnt say anything when i told him that Muhammed was never drawn and there is no data about his looks except for the description in Kuran. Ofcourse he didnt use the word prettier though
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


The thread just reminded me this funny conversation.

[thod]

Suppose the US sides with Israel, as usual. Then Syria ain't your friend, because it keeps invading you. If you get a civil war get lots of dead Syrians. That's a good thing simply because there are fewer of them. However they never really manage to kill enough in these affairs. Most end up as refugees. Not good if you have a border with them.

This all part of the great game. The west funnels cash and weapons to convenient discontents, they always exist. Maybe offers some training and send them back. Suddenly you go a country in chaos. The Saudi and Iranians will be in there pushing for an Islamic state too. The Russians see the west making surrounding manoeuvres. They reckon Syria is theirs and the west just wants it for another missile base. They will have no truck with this game.

Syria is in play in a much bigger game. Will they go for Russia, the West, Islamic or Warlord.

[politea]

@ Ray9
Let me ask you this question because I would really love to know:
" how do you feel about Israel and jewish people?"

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by politea To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	@ Ray9 Let me ask you this question because I would really love to know: " how do you feel about Israel and jewish people?"

Since he's old school, he's either utterly pro-Israel, or thinks Israel is a manipulative parasite.

[Maybe to Dream]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Since he's old school, he's either utterly pro-Israel, or thinks Israel is a manipulative parasite.

I've got to say. I don't fully get this dichotomy at all. The people who view Israel as an underdog who needs the undying support of the US as God's chosen ones are often thinking more in terms of the horrors of the Holocaust and the Biblical narrative.

Israel can be a liability when it comes to International Relations but "manipulative parasite" isn't quite right either. If you have practically unlimited political capital in a superpower, it'd be insane not to capitalize on that from time to time.

From what I've seen Israel pursues its own interests and in reality it's somewhere between "underdog" and "parasite".

[Ray9]

	Originally Posted by politea To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	@ Ray9 Let me ask you this question because I would really love to know: " how do you feel about Israel and jewish people?"

Isreal has been in existance virtually all of my life. How do I feel about it? I don't feel any differently about Israel than I do about France or England or any other developed civilized democracy. I would certainly support their robust defense if they were attacked as I believe the majority of Americans would. I'm one quarter Jewish by the way but that does not play into my feelings. Sometimes the Jews, the French and the Brittish do things I don't agree with but they are not evil. Im sorry but Islam is evil to the core.

[Shahira]

So slavery and racism is something you don't agree on, but you don't consider it to be evil?

[VF1J]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Im sorry but Islam is evil to the core.

So?

[Paul Siraisi]

Originally Posted by Samia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Wow, you clearly don't know much do you? I love how some people completely forget about other religions and other cultures violent histories but so ready to talk about Islam's history or what's happening in Muslim countries. What's going on there has NOTHING to do with the religion, but more of the fact that the one person that should be helping his people is instead killing them. Muslims are not a cultural group of people, they are religious group of people.

Nothing is forgotten, Samia. From the perspective of global history, the Arab world today can be seen to be probably about as violent as Europe in the middle ages. Europe then evolved and adopted an ideal of world peace (despite the continued operation of violent human nature against that, even inside Europe), and the Arab world didn't but instead, from almost the exact instant the warlord Mohammed crafted his cynical imitation of Christianity into a military tool, adopted an ideal of world conquest. Fortunately for the world, that ideal has been undermined by Islam's own suppression of thought (though some of its conquered peoples continued to struggle to follow the path lit by the Greeks in spite of it).

As a tool of conquest--or if you prefer "Submission", Islam is of course a projector of the culture that created it. This is why we see young ignoramuses in the west dressing as if they were in the desert. Moreover, it is a projection of that culture through time, making sure that the values of yesteryear's tribal bedouins and their harems are reverently inculcated into eager young adherents of Mohammed's SuperTribe in modern times, and making sure that human life continues to be all about conquest and submission.

Of course human violence has always been with us everywhere. But in some places our better natures have managed to scrawl a higher standard onto a bit of paper, for what little that's worth. In some other places, something was scrawled down that looks more like a justification for our ancient, lower instincts.

Let me now hand the discussion back to Syria, and your spirited denials.

[dungeonguy88]

Just pointing this out. But compared to Europe in the Middle Ages, the Middle East, in particular the Islamic nations, were pretty awesome. It's only been in the last century or so that things have really gone to hell there. Pretty sure we already covered that.

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Of course human violence has always been with us everywhere. But in some places our better natures have managed to scrawl a higher standard onto a bit of paper, for what little that's worth. In some other places, something was scrawled down that looks more like a justification for our ancient, lower instincts.

Things "going to hell," so to speak almost always are much more directly related to poverty than religion. I don't know why some people would insist on denying that, or make it about religion; 1 in 4 people in this world are Muslim! Are they all fucking evil? Indonesia is the largest Muslim country, is it evil? Or are you just using "Muslim" as a stand in for Arab? (Which makes all the bullshit "religious text" justifications totally moot, which is why the purposeful conflation of the two is completely necessary in this worldview.)

It's unclear, but again, the entire concept is absurd, and not related to anything like reality.

[Ray9]

Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Things "going to hell," so to speak almost always are much more directly related to poverty than religion. I don't know why some people would insist on denying that, or make it about religion; 1 in 4 people in this world are Muslim! Are they all fucking evil? Indonesia is the largest Muslim country, is it evil? Or are you just using "Muslim" as a stand in for Arab? (Which makes all the bullshit "religious text" justifications totally moot, which is why the purposeful conflation of the two is completely necessary in this worldview.) It's unclear, but again, the entire concept is absurd, and not related to anything like reality.

You have no idea how much I wish the world as you see it existed. But I am jaded by the very reality you say I ignore. You deny that reality because you can't admit to yourself that it's there.

“It's really a wonder that I haven't dropped all my ideals, because they seem so absurd and impossible to carry out. Yet I keep them, because in spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart.”
― Anne Frank, The Diary of a Young Girl

She wasn't necessarily wrong in principle but she wasn't protected by those who should have protected her. Sometimes those who are good at heart must be vigilant and act to protect those who for whatever reason cannot recognize evil that is approaching. You have an idealistic worldview but just because you don't want to believe something is there doesn't mean it isn't there.

[stasis]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	She wasn't necessarily wrong in principle but she wasn't protected by those who should have protected her.

I think people value Frank's observations in part because they suggest an indefatigability of the spirit. When you have observations like these coming from a child, there's less of a need to correct for the cynicism of adulthood and the statements seem more earnest. Premature world-weariness is poignant.

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Or are you just using "Muslim" as a stand in for Arab?

Are you providing counterargument because you presume that's what he must mean? In doing so, the gravity of your position would be the same. It's a despicable equivalence.

	Originally Posted by VF1J To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So?

So to hell with apologizing for it.

[Distance]

The Syrian situation is the same shit, different day, corruption related to the ill considered U.N. mandate of oil for food program where there's associated sectarian alignment. Iraq all over again.

All this is underlaid, yes, laid as in bend over, by western need to control oil sources hence control the global money supply. It's like a giant shell game, also why Russia and China are fucking around in the same pond.

[dungeonguy88]

Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You have no idea how much I wish the world as you see it existed. But I am jaded by the very reality you say I ignore. You deny that reality because you can't admit to yourself that it's there. “It's really a wonder that I haven't dropped all my ideals, because they seem so absurd and impossible to carry out. Yet I keep them, because in spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart.” ― Anne Frank, The Diary of a Young Girl She wasn't necessarily wrong in principle but she wasn't protected by those who should have protected her. Sometimes those who are good at heart must be vigilant and act to protect those who for whatever reason cannot recognize evil that is approaching. You have an idealistic worldview but just because you don't want to believe something is there doesn't mean it isn't there.

That kind of thinking cuts both ways:

He can't be objective about it because he is too idealistic and naive, can't the same be said about being too cynical or jaded?

[Ray9]

	Originally Posted by dungeonguy88 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That kind of thinking cuts both ways: He can't be objective about it because he is too idealistic and naive, can't the same be said about being too cynical or jaded?

I didn't say she was naive and you are absolutely right about it cutting both ways. If I'm cynical or jaded it's for good reason. I want to believe most people are really good at heart but those concentration camps did not build themselves. Evil exists in this world.

[Nemesis]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I want to believe most people are really good at heart but those concentration camps did not build themselves

It takes people just like you, Ray. Don't worry, we'll find a final solution to zee Muslim problem.


To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Shahira]

Evil does exist and will always exist. We need to accept that. I've learn to realise people do bad things because bad things have happened to them. Hitler for example couldn't get into the uni he wanted and saw a lot of Jews being successful and obviously he resented that. I'm not justfying what he did, but trying to understand it. Are you suggesting all evil comes from Muslims? Why do you hate Muslims so much? Have you ever had any experiences good or bad with Muslims? Or is this all from anti Islam/Muslim propaganda from the media?

[dungeonguy88]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I didn't say she was naive and you are absolutely right about it cutting both ways. If I'm cynical or jaded it's for good reason. I want to believe most people are really good at heart but those concentration camps did not build themselves. Evil exists in this world.

I certainly agree. I also believe that both good and evil can be found within any group. I no more endorse Islam itself than any other religion or ideology, but I recognize that good, evil, and often something in-between, can be found in all of them. So I agree that there are those that would build concentration camps and perpetrate other evils on others, but no group has a monopoly on the idea or is innocent of such wrongdoing.

My mistake on the naive thing.

[wolfyx]

The question is:

Can we realistically have “democracy” in an Islamic country?

Or in any country where religion still has a lot of power?

[Ghostwheel]

	Originally Posted by wolfyx To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The question is: Can we realistically have “democracy” in an Islamic country? Or in any country where religion still has a lot of power?

Behold:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

There was a democratic government in Iran in 1953. Eisenhower gave the order to overthrow it and install the Shah, and the rest is history.

So the answer is: yes ... if the West allows it to flourish.

For further reading:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.