[Distance]

Originally Posted by Elfrun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Not everyone is faced with a serious threat of assault, that horrible aspect seems to be largely aimed at transwomen seeking straight men who see them as something other than a woman and therefore threaten their heterosexuality. And until a relationship moves past getting to know each other and into lets get serious there is no reason to talk about this topic beyond the individual in question choosing to. Apparently so, but chasers are not as adorable as they think they are, quite the opposite.

Elfie, I agree with you on a logical AND emotional level. You know my perspective on assorted sexualities, in that they're all aspects of humanity. But it seriously concerns me that trans individuals are putting their safety into assumptions of rationality, where assault isn't rational. It's an instinctive fight reaction to what these dudes fear.

A message to all trans individuals. Be safe.

[Indubitably]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Elfie, I agree with you on a logical AND emotional level. You know my perspective on assorted sexualities, in that they're all aspects of humanity. But it seriously concerns me that trans individuals are putting their safety into assumptions of rationality, where assault isn't rational. It's an instinctive fight reaction to what these dudes fear. A message to all trans individuals. Be safe.

I think what it comes down to is what I like to call the, "if its important enough to hide" litmus test. A lie, is really a very personal thing when you think about it. The truth may not be the opposite of a lie, but it can at times be almost ruthlessly impersonal, because it is by definition objective. It is neither neccesary nor suffient that a statement be merely "accepted" in order for it to be true, because the statement is true precisely in so far as it is independent of interpretation. To speak the truth is to accurately represent repeatability regardless of context, it is to state exactly that which is agreed upon without acceptance. When we say what is true, not only do other humans agree with us, but so do the birds, and the fish, and the trees, and the flowers, and the stones, and the sands, and the waves, and the moon, and the very earth itself, so that if we are to ask for "acceptance" it may be granted by no one, save mother nature herself. A lie has no such standard of rigor to bare, it makes no promises of agreement, and grants acceptance to any who would carry it.

We like to pretend that a lie is the opposite of the truth, because we would like to define our sense of self in terms of such things, we would like to define what it means to be "me" by defining "the other" as untrue, but this is itself a lie, because mother nature does not play favorites. All of a thing and none of a thing are the same in her eyes, we are no more or less than a single cell, or an atom, or a man, or a circulatory system. She sees only entropy and the convolutions thereof, and so the delusion that such a thing as "me" exists is our first and most vital lie, but it is the lie from which the mind is derived and so there is no separating it from the man.

The truth is easy, it asks only that we be, and refuses us any choice in the matter one way or the other; what's difficult is finding the right lie, the "good" lie, the lie that is quintessentially paradoxical: that lie which is most true, that lie which brings us closest to ourselves. Perhaps in a way, trans women are "lying", but we are most certainly lying more in the presumption that our expectations are the truth. They are at least attempting to be who they are, where as we are attempting force them to be who we are afraid we may not be, so that we need not face ourselves. In the end, I think it comes down to, "is this important enough to hide?", and if the answer is "yes", then it is important enough that you would be in denial of yourself to deny it voice. Its not an easy balance to strike, but I think those who are willing, will know it when they see it. Its not about whether or not the other person accepts you as you are, that is their cross to bare, its about knowing that in the act of hiding something, you are refusing to claim what you believe to be yourself. Most trans women do not feel like they are hiding something, because in most situations they are not. They know that they are women, and there is nothing in their interaction with the public in every day life that is different from any other woman's, so there is nothing to hide. Even if other people accept them for who they are though, so long as "trans" is something they identify with, no matter how intimately private that part of their identity may be, it is still something that will need to be shared if they intend to engage in activities that will expose the most intimately private aspects of their body. I would be afraid in their place too, and they probably should be careful about how they go about it, but if you let the fear that you may not be what you are "supposed" to be in another's eyes, push you into a place of desperation and self denial, you are doing exactly what all those people trying to push their hetero normative perspective onto you are doing. The "right lie" for one person, may not always be the "right lie" for another, but I do think there are some lies that turn out to be the wrong lie for most anyone, and the conflation of what is "supposed" to be, with what "is", is most certainly among them.

[Distance]

Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think what it comes down to is what I like to call the, "if its important enough to hide" litmus test. A lie, is really a very personal thing when you think about it. The truth is by definition objective, it is neither neccesary nor suffient that a statement be merely "accepted" in order for it to be true, because the statement is true precisely in so far as it is independent of interpretation. To speak the truth is to accurately represent repeatability regardless of context, it is to state exactly that which is agreed upon without acceptance. When we say what is true, not only do other humans agree with us, but so do the birds, and the fish, and the trees, and the flowers, and the stones, and the sands, and the waves, and the moon, and the very earth itself, so that if we are to ask for "acceptance" it may be granted by no one, save mother nature herself. A lie has no such standard of rigor to bare, it makes no promises of agreement, and grants acceptance to any who would carry it. We like to pretend that a lie is the opposite of the truth, because we would like to define our sense of self in terms of such things, we would like to define what it means to be "me" by defining "the other" as untrue, but this is itself a lie, because mother nature does not play favorites. All of a thing and none of a thing are the same in her eyes, we are no more or less than a single cell, or an atom, or a man, or a circulatory system. She sees only entropy and the convolutions thereof, and so the delusion that such a thing as "me" exists is our first and most vital lie, but it is the lie from which the mind is derived and so there is no separating it from the man. The truth is easy, it asks only that we be, and refuses us any choice in the matter one way or the other; what's difficult is finding the right lie, the "good" lie, the lie that is quintessentially paradoxical: that lie which is most true, that lie which brings us closest to ourselves. Perhaps in a way, trans women are "lying", but we are most certainly lying more in the presumption that our expectations are the truth. They are at least attempting to be who they are, where as we are attempting force them to be who we are afraid we may not be, so that we need not face ourselves. In the end, I think it comes down to, "is this important enough to hide?", and if the answer is "yes", then it is important enough that you would be in denial of yourself to deny it voice. Its not an easy balance to strike, but I think those who are willing, will know it when they see it. Its not about whether or not the other person accepts you as you are, that is their cross to bare, its about knowing that in the act of hiding something, you are refusing to claim what you believe to be yourself. Most trans women do not feel like they are hiding something, because in most situations they are not. They know that they are women, and there is nothing different about their interaction with the public in every day life that is different from any other woman's, so there is nothing to hide. Even if other people accept them for who they are though, so long as "trans" is something they identify with, no matter how intimately private that part of their identity may be, it is still something that will need to be shared if they intend to engage in activities that will expose the most intimately private aspects of their body. I would be afraid in their place too, and they probably should be careful about how they go about it, but if you let the fear that you may not be what you are "supposed" to be in another's eyes, push you into a place of desperation and self denial, you are doing exactly what all those people trying to push their hetero normative perspective onto you are doing. The "right lie" for one person, may not always be the "right lie" for another, but I do think there are some lies that turn out to be the wrong lie for most anyone, and the conflation of what is "supposed" to be, with what "is", is most certainly among them.

Like everything else in life, it's a matter of risk vs. return. If people feel the risk is worth the return, they'll approach it as a necessity to hold their rational stance and perspective. As long as they're aware of potential consequences, then it's their lives where authenticity to values means more than risk of emotional and physical injury.

I support their stances but I can't support encouragement considering the potential consequences to taking that stance.

[Indubitably]

Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Like everything else in life, it's a matter of risk vs. return. If people feel the risk is worth the return, they'll approach it as a necessity to hold their rational stance and perspective. As long as they're aware of potential consequences, then it's their lives where authenticity to values means more than risk of emotional and physical injury. I support their stances but I can't support encouragement considering the potential consequences to taking that stance.

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you to be honest, just saying that there comes a point where it can backfire. I mean, if ever there was a social tight-rope walk, this is it. The longer you wait and the more attached you get, the more there is to lose, and in turn the stronger fear's grip on you, which subsequently makes you more susceptible to those feelings of self loathing that drive people towards acts of desperation, which is a very dangerous place for anyone to be.

They don't want to jump the gun before they're sure how they feel, or just expose themselves to unnecessary animosity if they can get some idea of the guy's potential for receptiveness (or at least tolerance) with a date or two, but its easy for things like this to snowball. Its like trying to roll a stone as close to the top of a hill as possible, the closer you get, the easier it is to overshoot, and when you do overshoot, things have a way of getting away from you very quickly.

My advice is simply that the steeper your hill is, the sooner you need to stop, even if it doesn't get you very far. If a girl is the sort that gets very attached very quickly, and has serious self esteem issues to boot (which is hard to avoid when you've got most of the population telling you that you shouldn't even exist) she'all need to pretty much wear the intimate details of her identity on her sleeve (at least with dating), where as someone who doesn't become too seriously invested can kind of play it by ear. Ironically, neither is going to seem intuitively comfortable for either type. The more adventurous girl is going to jump the gun, and the more invested girl is going to put it off until she gets in way over her head, so I think it bares mentioning.

[Uriel]

My bullshit detector is going haywire and the emotional daisy-chain going on in this thread is repulsive.

There is plenty of deception going on in a situation where a transperson does not disclose the information regarding their condition.

1. It presupposes an assumption by the transperson that the male they are interacting with has preexisting bias against transpeople.
In simpler terms, the transperson simply doesn't trust the judgement of the male.
An excellent way to start a relationship.

2. The transperson deceives herself in assuming the only kind of relationship is merely emotional and is devoid of physiological criteria.

3. The transperson knows of the male's assumption of her complete femaleness and willingly withholds information contrary to the male's assumption.

Not only does the transperson deceive the male, she also deceives herself.

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Same thing with being sterile.

If a male knows a female wants to have children from the beginning, and a male chooses to not disclose his sterility. Then both of them spend time together and him allowing the female to make significant emotional investment in him "as a person," what's that called; deception, malice, or emotional blackmail?

The male knowing the female's assumptions of his sterility disregards it and willfully withholds this critical information and allows the female to make significant emotional investment in him before his disclosure.

The transperson uses the male's emotional investment, hoping it'll be enough for him to dismiss the physiological issue. What's worse is that appeal to sympathy*guilt*emotion is being used to justify this malicious emotional blackmail (trap). The initial subjugation of the male's choice, then returning that choice after he had made a significant emotional investment. Is this fair?

This example is more comparable regarding the initial disregard of the other's natural assumption, the emotional investment involved, and the time of disclosure. It does not even address the assault on the male's masculinity by the symbolic phallus the other possesses.

	Originally Posted by Elfrun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I consider it more in line with a renting an apartment, only over time; you go, see if you want it first, speak to the person who owns the place so they can see you as their tenant and personalise you before you reveal the fact that you own 27 cats. You do not call them first and say I own a petting zoo, is that allowed in your unit, if you do that they will only see your zoo, not you.

Did you know that the person who owns the place does not allow pets before you decided to rent it?
Is there going to be a direct romantic relationship between you and the person who owns the place?
Does the tenant-owner relationship involve the other's sexuality?
Does the tenant-owner relationship involve emotional investment?

Your analogy is nothing but a strawman. There are too many things wrong with it.

	Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I really don't think there is anything particularly unrealistic about expecting people to acknowledge that they are a woman like any other woman[...]

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Thinking it's merely a change in pronouns is ridiculously naive. That thing dangling between their legs has been the quintessential symbol for male-ness and masculinity for millennia. If the transcommunity wants to educate people about their condition, they should educate themselves with that first. No amount of scientific duct tape is going to cover up global, cross-cultural, and millennia-long symbolism.

Transperson: I'm tired of having to educate people...

Passive-aggressive condescension based on ignorance. Hilarious.

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[...]

	Originally Posted by Anhedonic Lake To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[...]

	Originally Posted by RedN To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[...]

And to other male-to-female transpeople, how would you react if a male you've made significant time and emotional investment in says: "I was born with a vagina."

1. Can you answer that without bias?
2. Even if you can, is it not because you can relate to their experience?
3. And if the person cannot relate to your experience and states an answer you don't agree with, what then?
------Does that mean they're bad people?
------Do they deserve to be shamed for their preferences?

	Originally Posted by mieu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If I were trans, I wouldn't want to advertise it up front for fear of being pursued by someone whose fetish is transwo/men, it would be heartbreaking. [...]I want my SO to love me for who I am, first, which ultimately means weeding out the creeps needs to be the first goal[...]

Types of males transperson will attract through Disclosure and Non-Disclosure:

( Show Spoiler )

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"I want to weed out the fetishists." is the bullshittiest reason for non-disclosure, because non-disclosure winds up including males who are actually worse for the transperson than the fetishists. Transpeople can practice disclosure and weed out fetishists by simply going out with them on dates and getting to know them as individuals, can they not?

Can anyone else see the astounding irony of ironies in this practice?

	Originally Posted by mieu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[...]and that involves at least establishing a comfort level with someone (say, a couple of weeks of getting to know them) before I tell them.

If a couple of weeks translates to a few dates then yes, that is in my opinion sufficient time for disclosure. Any longer than that where emotional investment by the male increases goes into emotional blackmail territory.

[Indubitably]

Dear Mr. Uriel,

Excuse me for a moment while I compose myself, listening to an INTJ make a blatant appeal to the authority of popular consensus caused me to puke up what little faith I have left in humanity's capacity for logical discourse, and I'm going to need my concentration in order to play the world's tiniest violin for the collective wounded ego of all those poor phallus worshipers whos' delicate sensibilities have been savagely brutalised by trans women who failed to prostrate themselves before the sanctity of the almighty cock-god's most holy symbol in penance for their wicked existence.

Its funny, because we have a phrase for your bullshit detector in my language too, but we call it a, "one man intellectual circle jerk". It means "to call something bullshit by citing bullshit as justification". I mean really, if you want to use "its true because a symbol told me so" as your argument, we have an entire sub forum for that. I don't care if every man from Tutonkhamen to Justin Beiber have the same expectation, people can assume what ever the hell they want to assume, it still doesn't change the fact that they've got no one but themselves to blame when reality comes and smacks them upside the head then shoves the horseshit presumptions they just horked up all over the world back down their throat; and when it does, they can either swallow, or GTFO.

There is nothing about being a trans woman that in any way inhibits an individual's ability to take your order at a restaurant, or join Oprah's book club, or run a company, or any of the other things people do in public society. It doesn't even inhibit their ability to engage a man in terrible small talk while drinking table wine at a cheap Italian bistro, and just like any other woman, the $14.95 he spent on her eggplant parmesean doesn't entitle him to jack shit, one way or the other. She doesn't owe you disclosure any more than you are owed disclosure of the knowledge that the guy you play pool with Friday nights at the rodeo bar is gay, or the lawyer on the other end of the phone line is black, or anyone else owes you a justification for their existence because they deviate from what you expect to be normal. Every day gay men shoot pool without any deliberate attempt to deceive you, and black men practice law without any deliberate attempt to deceive you, and trans women walk down the street minding their own business with no deliberate attempt to deceive you.

It happens, get over it.

[Uriel]

	Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[...]appeal to the authority of popular consensus[...] [...]if you want to use "its true because a symbol told me so" as your argument[...]

That wasn't an appeal to authority or popular consensus. I did not state that fact as an absolute that disproves the transcommunity's stance. I pointed it out for them to consider as a hurdle; a big -if not the biggest one in their struggle to be understood and accepted.

	Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[...]people can assume what ever the hell they want to assume, it still doesn't change the fact that they've got no one but themselves to blame when nature comes and smacks them upside the head and shoves the horseshit presumptions they just horked up all over the world back down their throat; and when it does, they can either swallow, or GTFO.

I'm glad you understand what the transcommunity needs to hear.

Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

There is nothing about being a trans woman that in any way inhibits their ability to take your order at a restaurant, or join Oprah's book club, or run a company, or any of the other things people do in public society. It doesn't even inhibit their ability to engage a man in terrible small talk while drinking table wine at a cheap Italian bistro, and just like any other woman, the $14.95 he spent on her eggplant parmesean doesn't entitle him to jack shit, one way or the other.

Irrelevant garbage.

Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

She doesn't owe you disclosure any more than you are owed disclosure of the knowledge that the guy you play pool with Friday nights at the rodeo bar is gay, or the lawyer on the other end of the phone line is black, or anyone else owes you a justification for their existence because they deviate from what you expect to be normal. Every day gay men shoot pool without any deliberate attempt to deceive you, and black men practice law without any deliberate attempt to deceive you, and trans women walk down the street minding their own business with no deliberate attempt to deceive you.

An army of strawmen if I ever saw one.

None of those are even remotely analogous to the Transperson Disclosure issue being talked about. The transperson uses the male's emotional investment, hoping it'll be enough for him to dismiss the physiological issue. What's worse is that appeal to sympathy*guilt*emotion is being used to justify this malicious emotional blackmail (trap). The initial subjugation of the male's choice, then returning that choice after he had made a significant emotional investment is what is being interpreted as deceit.

PS: *whose

[Indubitably]

Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

That wasn't an appeal to authority or popular consensus. I did not state that fact as an absolute that disproves the transcommunity's stance. I pointed it out for them to consider as a hurdle; a big -if not the biggest one in their struggle to be understood and accepted. I'm glad you understand what the transcommunity needs to hear. Irrelevant garbage. An army of strawmen if I ever saw one. None of those are even remotely analogous to the Transperson Disclosure issue being talked about. The transperson uses the male's emotional investment, hoping it'll be enough for him to dismiss the physiological issue. What's worse is that appeal to sympathy*guilt*emotion is being used to justify this malicious emotional blackmail (trap). The initial subjugation of the male's choice, then returning that choice after he had made a significant emotional investment is what is being interpreted as deceit. PS: *whose

Your emotional investment entitles you to precisely its weight in gold. Which is to say: nothing. To understand why, see the section of my previous post entitled: Irrelevant Garbage. I'm pretty much done here, but from what I hear, the reason that there are so few illogical INTJs is because they cannibalize their wounded. Just sayin, you can keep talking if you want, but all its going to do is make me more and more obnoxiously smug while you hemorrhage Te bait into the shark tank.

Thanks,
Indubitably

PS: You might want to tuck your shirt in, the straw is showing.

[Valiyn]

You hear that sound? I do believe that sound means it's bitchslapping time up in here!
I do love the smell of smashed transphobia in the morning.

Sources in the next posts because it got too fucking long.....No seriously, there's a limit of 20,000 characters to a post! Who knew?

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There is plenty of deception going on in a situation where a transperson does not disclose the information regarding their condition.

What, and pretend we are our birth sex? Sounds like you want us to be deceptive.

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And personally, I've had my family perform an exorcism on me and have threaten to disown and kick me out. I don't see why I would want to share this with someone I personally don't know well in the first place. Much less how their entitled to it.

	1. It presupposes an assumption by the transperson that the male they are interacting with has preexisting bias against transpeople. In simpler terms, the transperson simply doesn't trust the judgement of the male. An excellent way to start a relationship.

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And you even suggested the male wouldn't be interested because of her genitalia.
And your even promoting putting us at risk because you "feel deceived" just because you can't see a trans woman as being female or vise versa for trans men.

	2. The transperson deceives herself in assuming the only kind of relationship is merely emotional and is devoid of physiological criteria.

Bullshit. No where is this shown. We're human just like the rest of you.

	3. The transperson knows of the male's assumption of her complete femaleness and willingly withholds information contrary to the male's assumption.

Maybe it's because she's fucking female?
Seriously, even cis women don't know if they are XY females unless they've been tested for it as a cause of sterility.
1% of all cis women have atypical genitalia. 1%, atleast. That's a fucking alot of people.
I fail to see why the trans woman must disclose but the cis woman doesn't. It's like saying you must disclose your 8% black ancestry in case your partner might be a racist (cause a racist is just the person you want to tell something like that too).

	If a male knows a female wants to have children from the beginning, and a male chooses to not disclose his sterility. Then both of them spend time together and him allowing the female to make significant emotional investment in him "as a person," what's that called; deception, malice, or emotional blackmail?

Is it so if the person has cancer or another medical condition like mental illness or cancer? Never mind the fact you don't know if sterility is a hard limit or something that can be talked about if everything works out on other levels. People aren't one dimensional, atleast, outside the internet they aren't.

	The male knowing the female's assumptions of his sterility disregards it and willfully withholds this critical information and allows the female to make significant emotional investment in him before his disclosure.

If it's that important, it will come up when the time is right. We're not talking about never disclosing here.

	This example is more comparable regarding the initial disregard of the other's natural assumption, the emotional investment involved, and the time of disclosure. It does not even address the assault on the male's masculinity by the symbolic phallus the other possesses.

What? Why are you assuming Cis is the null hypothesis here?
Assault on the male's masculinity? And you wonder why we think there are hostile bigots out there.

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I see the stupidity of your ideas, the fallacy of appealing to ignorant popular opinion, and raise you 60 sources. I put them in the next post for better formatting and so I can explain why each fucking one is important. For here though, do you consider this Bilaterally Gynandromorphic Chicken male or female?
Here's what nature thinks of male and female definitions:

( Show Spoiler )

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Thinking it's merely a change in pronouns is ridiculously naive. That thing dangling between their legs has been the quintessential symbol for male-ness and masculinity for millennia. If the transcommunity wants to educate people about their condition, they should educate themselves with that first. No amount of scientific duct tape is going to cover up global, cross-cultural, and millennia-long symbolism.

	And to other male-to-female transpeople, how would you react if a male you've made significant time and emotional investment in says: "I was born with a vagina."

You mean a trans man? We welcome them. On the plus side, they're more of a man then bigots will every be.

	1. Can you answer that without bias? 2. Even if you can, is it not because you can relate to their experience?

You're basically asking if we're as transphobic as you are. Good thing we're not!

	3. And if the person cannot relate to your experience and states an answer you don't agree with, what then? ------Does that mean they're bad people? ------Do they deserve to be shamed for their preferences?

Invalidating someone else's concept of self and self-worth? Even after the person has had to fight tooth and nail for every inch of that identity? And to do this just because you have a preference that doesn't include them? Yeap, that makes tranphobic people evil bastards in my book.

See addendum posts for sources.

[Valiyn]

My kung fu is strong, Addendum post #1

( Show Spoiler )

Peer-Reviewed Papers
1)

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. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;

...the data implicate that transsexuality may be associated with sex-atypical physiological responses in specific hypothalamic circuits, possibly as a consequence of a variant neuronal differentiation.

2)

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. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041

The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.

3)

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. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.

Solid evidence for the importance of postnatal social factors is lacking. In the human brain, structural diferences have been described that seem to be related to gender identity and sexual orientation.

4)

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. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones

5)

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: relationship to gender identity. by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.

We propose that the sex reversal of the INAH3 in transsexual people is at least partly a marker of an early atypical sexual differentiation of the brain and that the changes in INAH3 and the BSTc may belong to a complex network that may structurally and functionally be related to gender identity.

6)

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by Reiner and Gearhart, N Engl J Med. 2004 January 22; 350(4): 333–341.

RESULTS Eight of the 14 subjects assigned to female sex declared themselves male during the course of this study, whereas the 2 raised as males remained male. Subjects could be grouped according to their stated sexual identity. Five subjects were living as females; three were living with unclear sexual identity, although two of the three had declared themselves male; and eight were living as males, six of whom had reassigned themselves to male sex. All 16 subjects had moderate-to-marked interests and attitudes that were considered typical of males. Follow-up ranged from 34 to 98 months.
CONCLUSIONS Routine neonatal assignment of genetic males to female sex because of severe phallic inadequacy can result in unpredictable sexual identification. Clinical interventions in such children should be reexamined in the light of these findings.

7)

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Zulago et al. Horm Behav 53:613-626

The testicular feminization mutation (Tfm) in rodents, which produces a nonfunctional AR protein, provides an excellent model to probe the role of ARs in the development of brain and behavior. Tfm rodent models indicate that ARs are normally involved in the masculinization of many sexually dimorphic brain regions and a variety of behaviors, including sexual behaviors, stress response and cognitive processing. We review the role of ARs in the development of the brain and behavior, with an emphasis on what has been learned from Tfm rodents as well as from related mutations in humans causing complete androgen insensitivity.

8)

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- Rametti et al, J Psychiatr Res. 2010 Jun 8.

CONCLUSIONS: Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals.

9)

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- Tanaka et al, Psychiatry Clin Neurosci. 2010 Apr 1;64(2):157-61.

RESULTS: GID subjects had a significant decrease in rCBF in the left anterior cingulate cortex (ACC) and a significant increase in the right insula compared to control subjects.
CONCLUSIONS: The ACC and insula are regions that have been noted as being related to human sexual behavior and consciousness. From these findings, useful insights into the biological basis of GID were suggested.

10)

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Pasterski VL, Geffner ME, Brain C, Hindmarsh P, Brook C, Hines M Child Dev 76(1):264-78 2005

Data show that increased male-typical toy play by girls with CAH cannot be explained by parental encouragement of male-typical toy play. Although parents encourage sex-appropriate behavior, their encouragement appears to be insufficient to override the interest of girls with CAH in cross-sexed toys.

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Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35

The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.

and also

Boys and girls behave in different ways and one of the stereotypical behavioral differences between them, that has often been said to be forced upon them by upbringing and social environment, is their behavior in play. Boys prefer to play with cars and balls, whereas girls prefer dolls. This sex difference in toy preference is present very early in life (3–8 months of age) [1]. The idea that it is not society that forces these choices upon children but a sex difference in the early development of their brains and behavior is also supported by monkey behavioral studies. Alexander and Hines [2], who offered dolls, toy cars and balls to green Vervet monkeys found the female monkeys consistently chose the dolls and examined these ano-genitally, whereas the male monkeys were more interested in playing with the toy cars and with the ball....

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by Josso et al Human Reproduction Update, Volume 11, Number 4, July 2005 , pp. 351-356(6)

Mutations of the AMH and AMH receptor type II (AMHR-II) genes lead to persistence of the uterus and Fallopian tubes in males. Both conditions are transmitted according to a recessive autosomal pattern and are symptomatic only in males. Affected individuals are otherwise normally virilized, undergo normal male puberty; and may be fertile if testes, tightly attached to the Fallopian tubes, can be replaced in the scrotum

13)

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by Holterhus et al BMC Genomics. 2009 Jul 1;10:292.

CONCLUSION: A significant fraction of gene expression differences between males and females in the human appears to have its roots in early embryogenesis and is not only caused by sex chromosomes but also by long-term sex-specific hormonal programming due to presence or absence of androgen during the time of external genital masculinization. Genetic sex and the androgen milieu during embryonic development might therefore independently modulate functional traits, phenotype and diseases associated with male or female gender as well as with DSD conditions.

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by T'sjoen et al. Arch Sex Behav. 2010 Apr 1.

The patient qualifies as female-to-male transsexual and was treated according to the Standards of Care by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health with good outcome. However, we do not believe that female sex of rearing as a standard procedure should be questioned in CAIS. Our case challenges the role of a functional AR pathway in the development of male gender identity.

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by J.F.Veale & D.E.Clarke, Personality and Individual Differences (2009) 48(4), 357-366 (PDF)

We conclude that biological factors, especially prenatal androgen levels, play a role in the development of a gender-variant identity and it is likely that psychosocial variables play a role in interaction with these factors.

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Shannon R, Nicolaides NJ. Aust NZ J Obstet Gynaecol. 1973 Aug;13(3):184-7

True hermaphroditism exists when both ovarian and testicular tissues are present in the same person. This condition is quite rare and it is particularly rare for the subject to exhibit oogenesis and effective spermatogenesis.

(A fertile individual who has fathered two children can have an ovary with follicles and devloping ova. This individual also has a Fallopian tube and a uterus. - M.Italiano)

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D.Swaab & A.Garcia-Fulgaras Functional Neurology, Jan-Mar 2009:

One person we studied had untreated male gender dysphoria (S7), took no hormones and kept his transsexual feelings under wraps. He appeared to have a large INAH3 volume - in the male range - but a female INAH3 number of neurons (68) and a female BSTc somatostatin neuron number (95). Hence, this individual's hypothalamic characteristics were mid-way between male and female values

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by Uhlenhaut et al, Cell, Volume 139, Issue 6, 1130-1142, 11 December 2009:

Inducible deletion of Foxl2 in adult ovarian follicles leads to immediate upregulation of testis-specific genes including the critical SRY target gene Sox9. Concordantly, reprogramming of granulosa and theca cell lineages into Sertoli-like and Leydig-like cell lineages occurs with testosterone levels comparable to those of normal XY male littermates. Our results show that maintenance of the ovarian phenotype is an active process throughout life. They might also have important medical implications for the understanding and treatment of some disorders of sexual development in children and premature menopause in women

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by Pol et al, Europ Jnl Endocrinology, Vol 155, suppl_1, S107-S114 2006

Objective: Sex hormones are not only involved in the formation of reproductive organs, but also induce sexually-dimorphic brain development and organization. Cross-sex hormone administration to transsexuals provides a unique possibility to study the effects of sex steroids on brain morphology in young adulthood.

Methods: Magnetic resonance brain images were made prior to, and during, cross-sex hormone treatment to study the influence of anti-androgen + estrogen treatment on brain morphology in eight young adult male-to-female transsexual human subjects and of androgen treatment in six female-to-male transsexuals.

Results: Compared with controls, anti-androgen + estrogen treatment decreased brain volumes of male-to-female subjects towards female proportions, while androgen treatment in female-to-male subjects increased total brain and hypothalamus volumes towards male proportions.

Conclusions: The findings suggest that, throughout life, gonadal hormones remain essential for maintaining aspects of sex-specific differences in the human brain.

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by Scoening et al J Sex Med. 2009 Sep 14.

Conclusions. Our results confirmed previously reported deviances of brain activation patterns in transsexual men (sic - these are MtoF) from men without GID and also corroborated these findings in a group of transsexual patients receiving cross-sex hormone therapy. The present study indicates that there are a priori differences between men and transsexual patients caused by different neurobiological processes or task-solving strategies and that these differences remain stable over the course of hormonal treatment.

[Valiyn]

Addendum post #2, You don't know the power of SCIENCE!

( Show Spoiler )

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by Luders et al Neuroimage. 2009 Jul 15;46(4):904-7.

We analyzed MRI data of 24 male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals not yet treated with cross-sex hormones in order to determine whether gray matter volumes in MTF transsexuals more closely resemble people who share their biological sex (30 control men), or people who share their gender identity (30 control women). Results revealed that regional gray matter variation in MTF transsexuals is more similar to the pattern found in men than in women. However, MTF transsexuals show a significantly larger volume of regional gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. These findings provide new evidence that transsexualism is associated with distinct cerebral pattern, which supports the assumption that brain anatomy plays a role in gender identity.

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M.Diamond Hormones and Behavior 55 (2009) 621–632

The organization-activation theory posits that the nervous system of a developing fetus responds to prenatal androgens so that, at a postnatal time, it will determine how sexual behavior is manifest. How organization-activation was or was not considered among different groups and under which circumstances it is considered is basically understood from the research and comments of different investigators and clinicians. The preponderance of evidence seems to indicate that the theory of organization-activation for the development of sexual behavior is certain for non-human mammals and almost certain for humans.

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Govier et al International Journal of Transgenderism, 12:144–154, 2010

This study investigated the functional brain organization of 68 male-to-female (MtF) transwomen and 26 female-to-male (FtM) transmen by comparing their performance with 36 typical male and 28 typical female controls on two indicators of cerebral lateralization: dichotic listening and handedness. A sex-differentiating dichotic test and a handedness questionnaire were administered. It was hypothesized that the MtF participants’ dichotic performance would be significantly different from the control males and resemble the control female pattern. This hypothesis was supported. It was also hypothesized that the FtM dichotic pattern would be significantly different from the control females and would resemble the control male pattern. This hypothesis was not supported. Finally, it was hypothesized that there would be significantly more nonexclusive right-handers in both trans-groups. This hypothesis was supported. Taken together, the dichotic and handedness data reported here indicate that the MtF and FtM conditions are not mirror images in terms of the verbal-auditory aspects of their brain organization and neurobiology plays an important role, particularly in the development of the male-to-female trans-condition.

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Besser et al International Journal of Transgenderism 9(1): 29-44. 2006

44. In sum, gender identity, whether consistent or inconsistent with other sex characteristics, may be understood to be “much less a matter of choice and much more a matter of biology” (Coolidge et al., 2000). The scientific evidence supports the paradigm that transsexualism is strongly associated with the neurodevelopment of the brain (Zhou et al., 1995; Kruijver et al., 2000). It is clear that the condition cannot necessarily be overcome by “consistent psychological socialisation as male or female from very early childhood” and it is not responsive to psychological or psychiatric treatments alone (Green, 1999). It is understood that during the fetal period the brain is potentially subject to the organising properties of sex hormones (Kruijver et al., 2000; 2001; 2002; 2003). In the case of transsexualism, these effects appear to be atypical, resulting in sex-reversal in the structure of the BSTc, and possibly other, as yet unidentified, loci (Kruijver, 2004). The etiological pathways leading to this inconsistent development almost certainly vary from individual to individual, so no single route is likely to be identified. Different genetic, hormonal and environmental factors, acting separately or in combination with each other, are likely to be involved in influencing the development of the psychological identification as male or female. Psychosocial factors and cultural mores are likely to impact on outcomes (Connolly, 2003).

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M.Diamond Sex Roles (2006) 55:589–600

A theory of gender development is presented that incorporates early biological factors that organize predispositions in temperament and attitudes. With activation of these factors a person interacts in society and comes to identify as male or female. The predispositions establish preferences and aversions the growing child compares with those of others. All individuals compare themselves with others deciding who they are like (same) and with whom are they different. These experiences and interpretations can then be said to determine how one comes to identify as male or female, man or woman. In retrospect, one can say the person has a gendered brain since it is the brain that structures the individual’s basic personality; first with inherent tendencies then with interactions coming from experience.

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by Gizewski et al J Sex Med 2009;6:440–448.

Results. Significantly enhanced activation for men compared with women was revealed in brain areas involved in erotic processing, i.e., the thalamus, the amygdala, and the orbitofrontal and insular cortex, whereas no specific activation for women was found. When comparing MTF transsexuals with male volunteers, activation patterns similar to female volunteers being compared with male volunteers were revealed. Sexual arousal was assessed using standard rating scales and did not differ significantly for the three groups.

27)

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Cohen-Kettenis PT. Arch Sex Behav. 2005 Aug;34(4):399-410.

Individuals with 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency (5alpha-RD-2) and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency (17beta-HSD-3) are often raised as girls. Over the past number of years, this policy has been challenged because many individuals with these conditions develop a male gender identity and make a gender role change after puberty. The findings also raised doubts regarding the hypothesis that children are psychosexually neutral at birth and emphasized the potential role of prenatal brain exposure to androgens in gender development. If prenatal exposure to androgens is a major contributor to gender identity development, one would expect that all, or nearly all, affected individuals, even when raised as girls, would develop a male gender identity and make a gender role switch later in life. However, an estimation of the prevalence of gender role changes, based on the current literature, shows that gender role changes occur frequently, but not invariably. Gender role changes were reported in 56-63% of cases with 5alpha-RD-2 and 39-64% of cases with 17beta-HSD-3 who were raised as girls. The changes were usually made in adolescence and early adulthood. In these two syndromes, the degree of external genital masculinization at birth does not seem to be related to gender role changes in a systematic way.

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Cohen-Bendahan et al, Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2004 Aug;29(7):911-6.

In animals it has been shown that exposure to sex hormones is influenced by intrauterine position. Thus fetuses located between two male fetuses are exposed to higher levels of testosterone (T) than fetuses situated between two female fetuses or one female and one male fetus. In a group of opposite-sex (OS) twin girls and same-sex (SS) twin girls a potential effect of prenatal exposure to testosterone (T) on functional cerebral lateralization was investigated. We hypothesized that prenatal exposure to T would result in a more masculine, i.e. a more lateralized pattern of cerebral lateralization in OS twin girls than in SS twin girls. An auditory-verbal dichotic listening task (DLT) was used as an indirect method to study hemispheric specialization. Firstly, we established a sex difference on the DLT. Compared with SS girls, OS twin boys showed a more lateralized pattern of processing verbal stimuli. Secondly, as predicted OS girls had a more masculine pattern of cerebral lateralization, than SS girls. These findings support the notion of an influence of prenatal T on early brain organization in girls.

29)

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Scott Kerlin. Proc. International Behavioral Development Symposium July 2005

More than 150 network members (out of 500) with “confirmed” or “strongly suspected” prenatal DES exposure identified as either “transsexual, pre- or post-operative,” (90 members), “transgender” (48 members), “gender dysphoric” (17 members), or “intersex” (3 members).
...
In this study, more than 150 individuals with confirmed or suspected prenatal DES exposure reported moderate to severe feelings of gender dysphoria across the lifespan. For most, these feelings had apparently been present since early childhood. The prevalence of a significant number of self-identified male-to-female transsexuals and transgendered individuals as well as some individuals who identify as intersex, androgynous, gay or bisexual males has inspired fresh investigation of historic theories about a possible biological/endocrine basis for psychosexual development in humans, including sexual orientation, core gender identity, and sexual identity (Benjamin, 1973; Cohen-Kettenis and Gooren, 1999; Diamond, 1965, 1996; Michel et al, 2001; Swaab, 2004).

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Sheri A. Berenbaum, Adriene M. Beltz Frontiers in Neuroendocrinology 32 (2011) 183–200

A key question concerns the extent to which sexual differentiation of human behavior is influenced by sex hormones present during sensitive periods of development (organizational effects), as occurs in other mammalian species. The most important sensitive period has been considered to be prenatal, but there is increasing attention to puberty as another organizational period, with the possibility of decreasing sensitivity to sex hormones across the pubertal transition. In this paper, we review evidence that sex hormones present during the prenatal and pubertal periods produce permanent changes to behavior.
There is good evidence that exposure to high levels of androgens during prenatal development results in masculinization of activity and occupational interests, sexual orientation, and some spatial abilities; prenatal androgens have a smaller effect on gender identity, and there is insufficient information about androgen effects on sex-linked behavior problems. There is little good evidence regarding long-lasting behavioral effects of pubertal hormones, but there is some suggestion that they influence gender identity and perhaps some sex-linked forms of psychopathology, and there are many opportunities to study this issue.

31)
From
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by Harry Benjamin, 1966:

Another interesting observation, neither genetic nor endocrine, but nevertheless organic, was made some years ago by three American public health physicians, Drs. E. G. Williams, J. D. Reichard, and M. Pescor.[12] It concerned the reaction of the nervous system to Prostigmin, a rather powerful drug that acts directly on the nerves.

Normal males and females react alike. So do homosexual males. The drug, however, had no affect at all on the nerves of "feminine men." According to the authors, this may indicate a possible inborn physical trait having to do with an enzyme that takes part in the chemical reaction through which nerves stimulate muscular action.

To the best of my knowledge, these experiments have not been repeated as yet and therefore no confirmation or elaboration of the observation is available. In the light of the following paragraphs, however, they seem to gain particular significance.

Related to the genetic as well as the endocrine possibilities of etiology is a most recent one, coming from Williarn C. Young [13] and his group at the Oregon Regional Primate Research Center. It may be termed the neural or cerebroneural one. The neural structures and brain centers are the "target," that is to say, receiving organs for hormonal influences. Their genetic quality can decide how these hormones may affect them.

The Oregon group, working largely with monkeys, point to the "mechanism of hormonal action in organizing the tissues of the central nervous system." They say, "Evidence has accumulated indicating that the gonadal hormones have a broad role in the determination of (sex) behavior" through their "differentiation or organization of neural tissues."

[12] "Homosexuality: A Biological Anomaly," J. Nervous & Mental Diseases, Vol. 99, No. 65, January 1944.

[13] Young, William C., Goy, Robert W., Phoenix, Charles H., "Hormones and Sexual Behavior," Science, Vol. 143, No. 3603, January 17, 1964.

[Valiyn]

Val is insane, part 3 of the Addendum posts!

( Show Spoiler )

Formally Unpublished Online Material
32)
American Transman on "Male Gender Identity in an individual with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome"

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In Part 1 of this series, we learned about O.J. Simpson. Oh, and also about the androgen receptor. We learned about its structure, what it does and how it is mutated, at least what we know at this point. (And prior to Part 1, I posted a link to a primer on Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.)

In Part 2, the case was presented about a person who was born with unremarkable female genitalia and was raised female but who reported a male gender identity in adulthood (T’Sjoen et al., 2010). No big deal, right? This description could be about me and plenty of other guys. The significance is that this person is a chromosomal male with a mutated androgen receptor gene and so has Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS). In other words, his body cannot recognize or respond to the testosterone that his internalized testes produce.

This case of an individual with CAIS goes against the theory that testosterone masculinizes the brain during fetal development to result in male gender identity. According to the theory, without a functional androgen receptor, a person should not be able to have a male gender identity, no matter what their chromosomal makeup.

And that led us to Part 3, where we talked about gender-typical behavior and gender identity of chromosomal females with the intersex condition of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. CAH is typified by excess androgen production during fetal development due to genetic mutations affecting the steroidogenic pathways of the adrenal glands.

In discussing 46,XX individuals with CAH, the reasoning was that if excess androgens such as testosterone were present in sufficient quantity to virilize the developing genitalia, then the masculinization of the brain should also have occurred. The studies we discussed were designed to test the assumption that masculinization of the genitalia in 46,XX individuals with CAH was correlated with masculinization of the brain, as evidenced by masculine-typical behavior and male gender identity. The problem with this reasoning was, as we learned, that there is no proof that the degree of genital virilization in individuals with CAH correlates with the amount of testosterone present.

33)

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. SW Ecker. Abstract presented at the American Psychiatric Association Annual Meeting; May 18, 2009; San Francisco.

Gender Identity is that innate sense of who you are in this world with reference to your sexuality and behavior, not necessarily corresponding to your genitalia and reproductive organs. Transgenders are atypical and “think” as the opposite gender. Certain areas of the brain have been shown to be sexually dimorphic. They are different in structure and numbers of neurons in males versus females. Protein Receptors for the sex hormones in different areas of the brain (limbic and anterior hypothalamic) must be present in sufficient numbers to receive those powerful hormones. There are androgen receptors (AR), Estrogen Receptors (ER), and Progesterone receptors (PRs). ARs or ERs are predominant at different times in different parts of the human brain. Hormone receptor genes have been identified in humans, which are responsible for sexually dimorphic brain differentiation in the hypothalamus. The groundwork in brain gender identity is gene-directed and takes place by forming male and female hormone receptors in the brain before the gonads and hormones can influence them. Multiple genes acting in concert determine our sexual identity. The human brain continues to make neurons and synaptic neuronal connections throughout life. This contributes to Gender Role Behaviors making individuals in the continuum of gender identity. Gender behaviors must be differentiated from gender identity (Hines). Gender Identity cannot be predicted from anatomy (Reiner). Brain gender identity is determined very early in fetal development, but gender expression, expressed as behaviors requires hormonal, environmental, social and cultural interactions, which evolve with time. One cannot deny the profound effects of Testosterone, Estradiol and other steroids on genital differentiation in-utero or their effects on behavior from birth or the physical and mental cross gender changes caused by exogenous hormones, but gender identity is determined before and persists in spite of these effects.


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.

35)

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ZE Brain AEBrain(2008)

36)
Dr Veronica Drantz' Presentations :
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37)

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Friedemann Pfäfflin, Astrid Junge (Translated from German into American English by Roberta B. Jacobson and Alf B. Meier)


38)

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Cohen-Ketternis et al, J Sex Med. 2008 Aug;5(8):1892-7.

Professionals who take responsibility for these youth and are willing to help should yet be fully aware of the impact of their interventions. In this article, the pros and cons of the various approaches to youngsters with GID are presented, hopefully inciting a sound scientific discussion of the issue.

And because these are ones I've cited in the past after starting my career of hitting people with biology text books of the issue....
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I'll keep these ones shorter to just their source. Not to mention I've been writing this post for hours already.

38)

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More on the Neuro-biological link

39)
Carina Dennis, "The Most Important Sexual Organ," Nature 427, no 6773 (2004)
40)
Arthur P. Arnold, "Sex Chromosomes and Brain Gender," Nature Reviews: Neuroscience 5 (2004), 1-8
41)
Jiang-Ning Zhou, Michael A. Hofman, Lous J. G. Gooren, and Dick f. Swaab, "A Sex difference in the human brain and its relation to Transsexuality," Nature 378 (1995), 68-70
42)
Frank P.M. Kruijver, Jiang-Ning Zhou, Chris W. Pool, Michael A. Hofman, Lous J. G. Gooren, and Dick f. Swaab, "Male-to-Female Transsexuals have female Neuron numbers in Limbic Nucleus" Journal of Clinical Endrocrinology and Metabolism 85, no. 5 (2005), 2034-2041.
43)
Zhou, Jiang-Ning; Hofman, Michel A.; Gooren, Louis J. G.; Swaab, Dick F. (1995). "A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality". Nature
44)
Kruijver, F. P. M.; Zhou, JN; Pool, CW; Hofman, MA; Gooren, LJ; Swaab, DF (2000). "Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus". Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism
45)
Chung, WC; De Vries, GJ; Swaab, DF (2002). "Sexual differentiation of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis in humans may extend into adulthood". The Journal of neuroscience
46)
Gooren, L (2006). "The biology of human psychosexual differentiation". Hormones and behavior
47)
Swaab, DF (2004). "Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation". Gynecological Endocrinology
48)
Garcia-Falgueras, A.; Swaab, D. F. (2008). "A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity". Brain
49)
Luders, Eileen; Sánchez, Francisco J.; Gaser, Christian; Toga, Arthur W.; Narr, Katherine L.; Hamilton, Liberty S.; Vilain, Eric (2009). "Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism". NeuroImage
50)Rametti, G; Carrillo, B; Gómez-Gil, E; Junque, C; Segovia, S; Gomez, A; Guillamon, A (2010). "White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study". Journal of psychiatric research
51)
Pol, H. E H.; Cohen-Kettenis, P. T; Van Haren, N. E M; Peper, J. S; Brans, R. G H; Cahn, W.; Schnack, H. G; Gooren, L. J G et al (2006). "Changing your sex changes your brain: influences of testosterone and estrogen on adult human brain structure". European Journal of Endocrinology
52)
Ramachandran, V. S. (2008). "Phantom Penises In Transsexuals". Journal of Consciousness Studies

Cisgendered people would also have problems in our shoes. It's a human condition.

53)

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54)
Colapinto, J (2001). As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl. Harper Perennial. ISBN 0-06-092959-6. Revised in 2006
55)
Colapinto, J (2004-06-03). "Gender Gap: What were the real reasons behind David Reimer's suicide?". Slate.

Transsexuality is a medical condition and can be treated as such. No deception is going on by living as the identified sex.

56)
Haraldsen, I.R. and Dahl, A. A. (2000). Symptom profiles of gender dysphoric patients of transsexual type compared to patients with personality disorders and healthy adults. Acta Psychiatrica Scandiavia 102:276-281
57)
Smith Y.L.S., Cohen, L, and Cohen-Kettenis, P.T. (2002). Postoperative psychological functioning of adolescent transsexuals: A Rorchach study. Archives of Sexual Behavior 31:255-261
58)
Israel, G.E. and Tarver, D.E. (1997). Transgender care: Recommended guidelines, practical information & personal accounts. Philadelphia, PA: Temple University Press.
59)
Midence, K. and Hargreaves, I (1997). Psychosocial adjustment in Male-to-Female transsexuals: and overiew of research evidence. Journal of Psychology 131:602-614
60)
Heath, The Praeger Handbook of Transsexuality, Praeger (2006), p81

By the way, what do we do with 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency (5alpha-RD-2) and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency (17beta-HSD-3)? Also medical conditions, but cause a sex change without external intervention...


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*dusts of hands*

So. Valiyn: 60. Ur: 0
Cite some sources for your claims cause I still got more! We are not being deceptive at all. We are our identified sex. We don't owe you anything about our personal lives, medical experiences, and need let you judge the validity of our identity. If you want to say otherwise, cite your fucking sources.

[Elfrun]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Elfie, I agree with you on a logical AND emotional level. You know my perspective on assorted sexualities, in that they're all aspects of humanity. But it seriously concerns me that trans individuals are putting their safety into assumptions of rationality, where assault isn't rational. It's an instinctive fight reaction to what these dudes fear. A message to all trans individuals. Be safe.

I definitely agree with the "be safe" message. The
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, there are those who would kill.

I see risk v return as part of the screening process, I expect most transfolk would be figuring out if their date is phobic towards different ways of being and if they're trust worthy or volatile very early, if they elect to get intimate before knowing that it is high risk behaviour.

The victims are nearly all transwomen, those of colour are especially at risk, and the assaults are predominately committed by straight men. If you fit that criteria than talking about your past only puts you at greater risk. Attitudes like Uriel's are not uncommon, you minimise the risk by weeding those ones out quickly, not by talking about your past sooner.

Is my rationality concerning you? Because frankly I consider myself at less risk of being assaulted by a date than any women would be, 'cept maybe for you ENTJs, dudes would be nuts to try that on! xD

[Anhedonic Lake]

Trap' may have lost the first match but I think Ireland will nick a point off Spain tonight.


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[Distance]

Originally Posted by Elfrun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I definitely agree with the "be safe" message. The To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , there are those who would kill. I see risk v return as part of the screening process, I expect most transfolk would be figuring out if their date is phobic towards different ways of being and if they're trust worthy or volatile very early, if they elect to get intimate before knowing that it is high risk behaviour. The victims are nearly all transwomen, those of colour are especially at risk, and the assaults are predominately committed by straight men. If you fit that criteria than talking about your past only puts you at greater risk. Attitudes like Uriel's are not uncommon, you minimise the risk by weeding those ones out quickly, not by talking about your past sooner.

Good point, as long as transwomen are being careful, testing and screening for phobic behaviours.

	Is my rationality concerning you? Because frankly I consider myself at less risk of being assaulted by a date than any women would be, 'cept maybe for you ENTJs, dudes would be nuts to try that on! xD

I'd assault you and you might even like it.
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[Uriel]

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Cite some sources for your claims cause I still got more!

Does deduction necessitate sources?
If you believe any of my claims require sources, please point these claims out to me.

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've had my family perform an exorcism on me and have threaten to disown and kick me out. I don't see why I would want to share this with someone I personally don't know well in the first place. Much less how their entitled to it.

The presence of a penis or a vagina on a female and your exorcism sob-story are both intimate details, but they have one big difference. The latter does not fall under a reasonable assumption based on observable physical appearance and demeanor whereas the former does. They are not comparable regarding physiology-based disclosure. Perhaps you'll win sympathy points from other readers by sharing that sob-story, but you do not get any from me.

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Disclosure.   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. What, and pretend we are our birth sex? Sounds like you want us to be deceptive.

No. Strawman.

Disclosing the presence of a penis where a vagina is usually expected does not equal pretending to be your birthsex.

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

1. It presupposes an assumption by the transperson that the male they are interacting with has preexisting bias against transpeople. In simpler terms, the transperson simply doesn't trust the judgement of the male. An excellent way to start a relationship.   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. And you even suggested the male wouldn't be interested because of her genitalia. And your even promoting putting us at risk because you "feel deceived" just because you can't see a trans woman as being female or vise versa for trans men.

No, I am not suggesting it. I am pointing out the presupposition of non-disclosure. Non-disclosure means the transfemale assumes the male will reject her based on her genitalia even if it is not proven. I am not the one practicing non-disclosure, it is the transfemale who is doing so. The transfemale already has a negative assumption of the male from the beginning. Let me put it in simpler terms:

Transfemale: I don't trust you, because I know you will reject me based on my genitalia. Therefore I will not disclose it to you.

And how is the transfemale being put at risk because of the male's feeling deceived?

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The transperson deceives herself in assuming the only kind of relationship is merely emotional and is devoid of physiological criteria.   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Bullshit. No where is this shown. We're human just like the rest of you.

And just like humans, you are prone to self-deception.

Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

3. The transperson knows of the male's assumption of her complete femaleness and willingly withholds information contrary to the male's assumption.   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Maybe it's because she's fucking female? Seriously, even cis women don't know if they are XY females unless they've been tested for it as a cause of sterility. 1% of all cis women have atypical genitalia. 1%, atleast. That's a fucking alot of people. I fail to see why the trans woman must disclose but the cis woman doesn't.

Is she a female with a dangler between her legs?
Does cis-female with atypical genitalia = a transfemale born with a penis?
Is 1% in relation to 99% a fucking lot of people?
Why are you shifting the transfemale's problem and making it out to be a cisfemale's problem as well?
If I have to do it, doesn't she have to do it too?

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's like saying you must disclose your 8% black ancestry in case your partner might be a racist (cause a racist is just the person you want to tell something like that too).

Strawman.

Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If a male knows a female wants to have children from the beginning, and a male chooses to not disclose his sterility. Then both of them spend time together and him allowing the female to make significant emotional investment in him "as a person," what's that called; deception, malice, or emotional blackmail?   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Is it so if the person has cancer or another medical condition like mental illness or cancer?

Huh?

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Never mind the fact you don't know if sterility is a hard limit or something that can be talked about if everything works out on other levels. People aren't one dimensional, atleast, outside the internet they aren't.

Yet the transfemale's disclosure issue discards the male's involvement and is something that is entirely controlled by the transfemale alone as if it is not something that can be talked about if everything works out on other levels. People aren't one dimensional, and the transfemale shouldn't treat the male as such by non-disclosure.

Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The male knowing the female's assumptions of his sterility disregards it and willfully withholds this critical information and allows the female to make significant emotional investment in him before his disclosure.   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. If it's that important, it will come up when the time is right. We're not talking about never disclosing here.

Who gets to decide when the time is right?
And regarding the transfemale's disclosure issue, when is the right time?
That's the Million Dollar question, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This example is more comparable regarding the initial disregard of the other's natural assumption, the emotional investment involved, and the time of disclosure. It does not even address the assault on the male's masculinity by the symbolic phallus the other possesses.   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Why are you assuming Cis is the null hypothesis here? Assault on the male's masculinity? And you wonder why we think there are hostile bigots out there.

I'm not assuming anything. What null hypothesis nonsense are you talking about, nobody is collecting data. I was acknowledging the parallels of the sterility disclosure with the transfemale disclosure, and excluding the idea that a man who sleeps with a transfemale might consider it a threat to his sexuality.

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phallus   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I see the stupidity of your ideas, the fallacy of appealing to ignorant popular opinion[...]

That wasn't an appeal to authority or popular consensus. I did not state that fact as an absolute that disproves the transcommunity's stance. I pointed it out for them to consider as a hurdle; a big -if not the biggest one in their struggle to be understood and accepted.

Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

And to other male-to-female transpeople, how would you react if a male you've made significant time and emotional investment in says: "I was born with a vagina."   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. You mean a trans man? We welcome them. On the plus side, they're more of a man then bigots will every be.

You did not answer my question.

I wasn't asking if you "welcome" transmales. I was asking how you would react if a male you naturally assumed had a penis, and made significant time and emotional investment in says: "I was born with a vagina." Furthermore, what if they still had it? Furthermore, would you go ahead and engage him in a relationship?

	Originally Posted by Anhedonic Lake To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Trap' may have lost the first match but I think Ireland will nick a point off Spain tonight. ( Show Spoiler ) To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Put your pompoms away and make your contribution to the discussion by answering the question I posed.

How you would react if a male you naturally assumed had a penis, and made significant time and emotional investment in says: "I was born with a vagina."
Furthermore, what if they still had it?
Furthermore, would you go ahead and engage him in a relationship.

	Originally Posted by Elfrun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Attitudes like Uriel's are not uncommon[...]

Stop with that passive-aggressive behavior and address me directly.

Answer my question:

How you would react if a male you naturally assumed had a penis, and made significant time and emotional investment in says: "I was born with a vagina."
Furthermore, what if they still had it?
Furthermore, would you go ahead and engage him in a relationship.

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	1. Can you answer that without bias?   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. You're basically asking if we're as transphobic as you are. Good thing we're not!

I'll take that as a no.

Pointing out the flaws in the arguments of people who support non-disclosure and making supporting arguments for disclosure does not translate to transphobia. Calling me transphobic is a strawman attempt to demonize me.

Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

3. And if the person cannot relate to your experience and states an answer you don't agree with, what then? ------Does that mean they're bad people? ------Do they deserve to be shamed for their preferences?   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Invalidating someone else's concept of self and self-worth?

Strawman.

An individual's not being able to relate to a transfemale's experience ≠ invalidating their self concept and self worth.

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Even after the person has had to fight tooth and nail for every inch of that identity?

Hyperbolic appeal to emotion.

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And to do this just because you have a preference that doesn't include them? Yeap, that makes tranphobic people evil bastards in my book.

Slippery slope, non-sequitur, strawman. Hyperbolic poisoning of the well.

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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Do you think all that scientific duct tape is going to magically cover up global, cross-cultural, and millennia-long symbolism I showed
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?
What does the current perception of society tell you?

I think they don't disclose because they are ashamed of what they are.

They must acknowledge the existence of the penis and embrace what it stands for.
Then and only then will they be able to progress and move forward in their quest to be understood and accepted.
Fallacious arguments, appeals to emotion, and hyperbole will not help.

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We are not being deceptive at all. We are our identified sex. We don't owe you anything about our personal lives, medical experiences, and need let you judge the validity of our identity. If you want to say otherwise, cite your fucking sources.

I am not contesting the transfemale's identity, so citing that long list of garbage -however impressive- is quite useless.

You may eat them now.

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I fail

Miserably.

[Uriel]

	Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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	Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Many people insisted that not disclosing this fact would constitute a kind of deception. But how is anyone being deceived here, and what would they be deceived about?

If a male prefers a mate who is a complete female it is reasonable for him to assume the females he dates are complete or "real" regardless of the rare incidences of convincing quasi-females (with or sans penii). The quasi-female who is actually aware of the male's reasonable assumption and willingly proceeds to engage the male in a relationship with significant emotional investment on the male's part despite knowing she does not fully fit his reasonable assumption is where the deception lies.


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: to mislead by a false appearance

Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My suggestion was that men for whom this is a concern should first ask if their partner is trans. I did not recommend lying in response. These people feel they should be able to assume that women aren't trans - but if that were a valid assumption, this wouldn't be an issue to begin with. Some women are trans, including the women these men might take an interest in, which is why this is a concern for them. Their assumption does not hold true, and wishing to act as though it does is like saying that the mere existence of trans women is an inconvenience to them, and that they should not have to account for that reality. But if you make a knowingly inaccurate assumption, and make no effort to verify it, and you end up being wrong, it doesn't mean that anyone else has deceived you. If this is a concern for you, it's nobody else's responsibility to divine your expectations when you intentionally refuse to make them clear.

A. Transfemales are rare.
B. Transfemales who are convincingly female in outward appearance and demeanor are uncommon among transfemales.
C. "Convincing" transfemales are uncommon among rare in relation to all females.

Reasonable assumptions:

D. Expecting females to have a vagina despite the existence of B. uncommon-among-the-rare.

The only unreasonable assumption these males are making is for the transperson to be honest and upfront.

There are males with a binary gender paradigm whose dating and relationship pool only include complete females (the ones born with vaginas and uteri). And they would have issues with having an intimate, romantic relationship with anyone who falls outside that pool. They are unaware of the existence of transfemales in the dating and relationship pool, so they believe the only people who fall outside that pool are males. When they find out during the shock of disclosure their issue surfaces arbitrarily.

Just because you're human, it does not mean people automatically assume you're in the dating pool.

1. Males who accept the identity of transfemales, and have accepted their existence in the dating pool, and have added them in their dating pool.
2. Males who accept the identity of transfemales, and have accepted their existence in the dating pool, but do not add them to their dating pool.
3. Males who accept the identity of transfemales, and have not accepted their existence in the dating pool, and do add them to their dating pool.
4. Males who do not accept the identity of transfemales, and have accepted their existence in the dating pool, and do include them in their dating pool.
5. Males who do not accept the identity of transfemales, and have not accepted their existence in the dating pool, and do add them to their dating pool.
6. Males who do not accept the identity of transfemales, and have accepted their existence in the dating pool, and do not add them to their dating pool.
7. Males who accept the identity of transfemales, and have not accepted their existence in the dating pool, and do not add them to their dating pool.
8. Males who do not accept the identity of transfemales, and have not accepted their existence in the dating pool, and do not add them to their dating pool.

Zinnia's argument is against 2, 6, 7, and 8. It is invalid regarding 2 and 6, because it is irrational and unreasonable to expect a male to ask the female he is dating if she is trans given the incidence of transfemales among true and complete females (C). A moronic suggestion on her part. Her argument is also invalid regarding 7 and 8, because her argument presupposes the male has accepted the existence of transfemales in the dating pool.

	Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	These people then claim that trans women should already know that something like 99% of men would not want to be with a trans woman. In other words, 99% of people would apparently drop them like a hot potato[...]

False.

99% of men ≠ 99% of people

Citations are also needed for "99% of men would not want to be with a trans woman."

	Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	After all, what most distresses them here is the possibility that they might sleep with a trans woman and enjoy the experience, without knowing that she's trans.

A male can sleep with a transfemale and enjoy the experience knowing or not knowing she's a trans. The conjecture here is the claim of distress due to the possibility of sleeping with a transfemale and enjoying it.

	Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So, they don't prefer trans women, yet they have no problem sleeping with them.

Conjecture.

	Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What does that say about their true preferences here?

Nothing. Deriving pleasure by inserting his penis inside a warm, tight, and moist hole has no bearing on sexual orientation.

Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Some people have compared this to other information that one could be aware of which might alter their decision to sleep with someone: things like being married, or having HIV, or being a convicted sex offender. (Those are their examples, not mine.) And this seems like an obviously different situation. Nobody is being exposed to contagious and deadly diseases. No one is being dragged into the middle of someone else's pre-existing relationship. And they haven't committed some horrible act that would reflect strongly upon their character. So why should the fact that they're trans change anything?

They are poor comparisons that only have one common denominator: non-disclosure of an aspect that has the potential to be a deal-breaker regarding engaging an individual in a romantic relationship. That is the only parallel it has to the Disclosure issue.

	Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	They claim they don't like what trans women are, and yet it's a very real possibility that this is something they would like.

Correct. They just have to get over the presence or former presence of the penis.

Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

But for some reason, they wish to avoid that experience. Why? Many of them depict this as an unquestionable preference: something that just is, beyond the realm of criticism and beyond their ability to change. Much like how some people prefer the same sex or the opposite sex, these people would prefer not to be with trans women - although, for the aforementioned reasons, this is hardly an accurate comparison. And I suspect this stated preference is more informed by common attitudes toward trans people than by a person's own innate desires.

And I suspect this stated preference is more inclined by the presence or former presence of the penis.

	Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The world we live in tends to see trans women as something less than women, as if they fall short of being so-called "real" women. [...]Even though she's a woman, people refuse to accept her as one.

I suspect this is because of the absence of the uterus and the vagina; body parts "real" and complete females are usually born with.

	Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As a result, a straight man who sleeps with a trans woman might consider this a threat to his sexuality.

Conjecture.

	Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And from there comes the idea that trans women are obligated to identify themselves[...]

Slippery slope. Non-sequitur. Premise is based on conjecture.

Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This is a social problem, not just an innocent preference. If a racist was very distraught to find out that his partner was of fractionally African ancestry after they've slept together, would we have any sympathy for him? If he didn't even ask about this first, would we have expected her to know that she should have told him? Well, what if 99% of the population were incorrigible racists? Should she then be expected to disclose this from the outset, even though it doesn't make any difference? Would we be at all surprised if she doesn't volunteer this information? Has she "deceived" anyone by not mentioning her ancestry, even when they haven't asked? And can her partners be said to have been harmed in any way by this? People are certainly entitled to their preferences, and they're entitled to have those preferences respected. Likewise, the rest of us are free to believe that their preferences are stupid - and their refusal to articulate them, doubly so.

False. Christ, another idiotic comparison.

Did he have reasonable grounds to assume she was not what his excluded preference was?
Did she know what his excluded preference was?
If she did, did she proceed to engage him in a relationship despite knowing so?
Is non-disclosure of fractional ancestry the same as non-disclosure of former sex or presumed sexual organ?

Disclosure is not a social problem, it is all about preference of the male and sincerity of the transfemale. The male's preference is not stupid, it's reasonable. The sincerity of the transfemale however, is still in question.

Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Many people again insisted that they absolutely cannot ask a possible partner if she's trans, because it would be taken as an insult and hinder their romantic ambitions. It really says a lot about people's attitudes that being trans is itself considered an insult, and it's quite ironic that this mindset could end up frustrating the desires of two people who aren't even trans. If that's how you feel, then you probably should make your preferences heard, just so any trans women will know that you see them as literally unspeakable.I t's hard to see how this is supposed to be an insult - after all, you've already shown an interest in her, and if you're asking whether she's trans, that means you can't tell. Not all trans people are visibly trans, anyway. And if both parties would stop acting like there's something insulting about being trans, this wouldn't even be a problem.

See that bolded gem. Their body, their problem. Transpeople are shifting responsibility and accountability to the other genders and making the issue out to be the other genders' problem, because Transpeople would not acknowledge that the problem is theirs. Expecting both parties male and (real) female to shift their paradigm for them is utterly unrealistic and delusional considering their rarity in the general populace. Not quite female in body, but definitely female in mind.

Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

What's really disconcerting is that I've seen these people explain, at length, how utterly crucial it is that their partner not be trans. I've seen them compare it to exposing someone to HIV in its seriousness. And yet they can't bring themselves to say this to someone's face. If people are going to compare this to STDs, then just think about what their attitude toward safe sex must be like. Can you imagine never wearing a condom, never asking anyone if they're clean or getting tested together, and just assuming that nobody has any sexually transmitted diseases, while doing nothing whatsoever to protect yourself? That would be insane, and there's a reason we discourage this reckless behavior: it can have serious consequences. But what are the consequences of sleeping with someone who's trans? Certainly nothing comparable to catching a disease - and this is reflected in these people's actions, or lack thereof. They're definitely not acting the way that they would if they were trying to avoid contracting HIV. They're taking no precautions here at all. If this is supposed to be such a terrible fate, then either they're being flagrantly irresponsible, or this isn't really as bad as they've made it out to be. If they're prioritizing sex before avoiding this, which they appear to be doing, that's their choice. Otherwise, there's no excuse for not being proactive. If this is something they feel the need to protect themselves from, why aren't they protecting themselves?

More false comparisons and hyperbolic bullshit. The ramifications of being proactive regarding the sex organ of a male's potential female mate are not comparable to the ramifications of being proactive regarding sexual intercourse. The issue is not about the consequences of sleeping with a transfemale. It is about the sincerity of the transfemale's intention regarding the male's reasonable assumption. Disclosure.

Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Finally, some people pointed out that being trans is a major part of trans people's lives, and honesty about such significant things is important in a relationship. And that's absolutely a valid concern in some cases. Depending on whether it's a committed relationship, or a one-time thing, it may be important to mention, or it might not. In the long term, of course it's something to be disclosed as part of the trust that should exist between committed partners, but in the context of something more casual, it might not even be relevant. Someone compared it to sterility, and while it's hardly an exact parallel, if it's serious enough that you and your partner are considering children, it's probably serious enough that you should share this with them. All of this depends on the individual circumstances, and it comes down to individual judgment. It's hard to say what everyone ought to do, but as a general guideline, I don't see why being trans should be regarded as something especially different here. It can be treated the same as other such things that you would share with a committed partner, like corrective surgeries or developmental conditions. Honesty is important here, and I see no problem with expecting people to disclose this at the appropriate time. But depending on the nature of the relationship, it may not need to be disclosed prior to sex, or even after. It seems rather unbelievable that this is as serious an ethical violation as people have claimed. And I think most of them already know that.

Talking about the importance of honesty in a relationship, nice. What would it be called when transfemale engaging a male in a relationship while willfully withholding information about herself that is contrary to the male's natural and reasonable assumption about her body? She talks about disclosure "in the long term", that is after the male has made a significant emotional investment into the relationship. Again, EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL. If a male does engage a transfemale through this process, it was through acquiescence to guilt after having made significant emotional investments.

I feel sympathy for the male because he was robbed of his choice of whether or not to pursue the relationship in his own terms regardless of what his terms were.

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[...]

	Originally Posted by Anhedonic Lake To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[...]

	Originally Posted by RedN To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[...]

	Originally Posted by Elfrun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[...]

Would you disclose if you were asked that question on the first date? Why?

[Valiyn]

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Does deduction necessitate sources? If you believe any of my claims require sources, please point these claims out to me.

You're assuming things that aren't true and building your arguments off these claims. So yes, sources do need to be cited if you want to make claims. Ignorant popular opinion is not valid.

The presence of a penis or a vagina on a female and your exorcism sob-story are both intimate details, but they have one big difference. The latter does not fall under a reasonable assumption based on observable physical appearance and demeanor whereas the former does. They are not comparable regarding physiology-based disclosure. Perhaps you'll win sympathy points from other readers by sharing that sob-story, but you do not get any from me.

You are assuming people are cisgender by default. This is not true. It's like assuming someone is 100% white. They are under no obligation to tell you otherwise and assume you have a problem with it. As the racist, it's your job to be more specific in what you're looking for. And no, the race analogy is not a strawman. Same can be said of a religious analogy. Like being married, if you want a monogamous relationship it's your job to ask your potential partner if they have an issue with it.

My own experience was shared because it is evidence trans people (and trans women especially) are taking risk by coming out to anyone. If you think we owe you something because your cisgendered then you are sadly delusional.

	No. Strawman.

Not a strawman. You'd know that if you did any research on the subject? And after I made the research easy for you.

	Disclosing the presence of a penis where a vagina is usually expected does not equal pretending to be your birthsex.

When it is used as a way to invalidate us as female it is.

	To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's what's you fucking asked for!!! You wanted the god damn stats. Not an appeal to emotion because you asked for them specifically and I gave them to you.

No, I am not suggesting it. I am pointing out the presupposition of non-disclosure. Non-disclosure means the transfemale assumes the male will reject her based on her genitalia even if it is not proven. I am not the one practicing non-disclosure, it is the transfemale who is doing so. The transfemale already has a negative assumption of the male from the beginning. Let me put it in simpler terms: Transfemale: I don't trust you, because I know you will reject me based on my genitalia. Therefore I will not disclose it to you.

You're bigoted and you're expecting everyone else to be too for this argument to work. You don't have a right to our medical history for your own judgement of our identity. This isn't presupposition of non-disclosure, this is mind your own fucking business.

	And how is the transfemale being put at risk because of the male's feeling deceived?

Trans panic defense anyone? Google it.

	Is she a female with a dangler between her legs?

Yes. You'd know that if you looked at any of the sources I cited instead of remaining ignorant and appealing to the popular (but unscientific) penis = male, vagina = female binary. Nature is alot more fucking complicated. Try taking a biology course after high school.

	Does cis-female with atypical genitalia = a transfemale born with a penis?

Cis and Trans come from the same latin prefix. Apparently you need to study more then biology. When rephreased to "does a female with atypical genitalia = a trans woman born with a penis?" then answer is yes as part of an umbrellia of the larger intersex conditions.

	Is 1% in relation to 99% a fucking lot of people?

Of every 100 females you talk to, one doesn't have typical genitalia. It's simple fucking statistics.

	Strawman.

Not a strawman. If you don't want to date a trans woman then it's your duty to specify that, not hers to tell you. You aren't that special. See, a trans woman is a woman. And if you just specify you want to date a woman, well then you've included her already.

	Who gets to decide when the time is right? And regarding the transfemale's disclosure issue, when is the right time? That's the Million Dollar question, isn't it?

When she wants to. If you've ever had a woman lose interest in you after a week, it's usually because a red flag has gone up some where. It's like that for every woman, it's how we work. Same with trans, we'll make sure you have morals before dating you simply put.

	I'm not assuming anything. What null hypothesis nonsense are you talking about, nobody is collecting data. I was acknowledging the parallels of the sterility disclosure with the transfemale disclosure, and excluding the idea that a man who sleeps with a transfemale might consider it a threat to his sexuality.

You want to assume that when you say "I want to date a female" the only people that includes are cisgendered. That is not the case. Cisgendered does not equal default or only female (nor does adjectives like white).

	That wasn't an appeal to authority or popular consensus. I did not state that fact as an absolute that disproves the transcommunity's stance. I pointed it out for them to consider as a hurdle; a big -if not the biggest one in their struggle to be understood and accepted.

It's an appeal to popular consensus. The ideal that penis = male and vagina = female does not compute past high school biology.

	You did not answer my question.

I did answer your question. I'm not bigoted enough to care he was born with a vagina. Why? Because if I said I like men, then by definition of him being a man, he's done nothing wrong.

	I wasn't asking if you "welcome" transmales. I was asking how you would react if a male you naturally assumed had a penis, and made significant time and emotional investment in says: "I was born with a vagina." Furthermore, what if they still had it? Furthermore, would you go ahead and engage him in a relationship?

So 1) we're included post-ops in this as well. Fundie bigoted territory now. 2) So what if they still had it? They're still a man. Why is this hard for you to understand? 3) Damn straight. If I had a problem with it, it would be my responsibility to say so and bring it up. I would be the one with the fucking problem with it after all.

	Stop with that passive-aggressive behavior and address me directly.

That will happen when your worth answering. For now, we're doing this for the people on the sidelines.

	Pointing out the flaws in the arguments of people who support non-disclosure and making supporting arguments for disclosure does not translate to transphobia. Calling me transphobic is a strawman attempt to demonize me.

You have a problem accepting a trans woman as female and accepting a trans man as male. That's transphobia, but hopefully one day you'll educate yourself out of the ignorance so you can be a better, non-bigoted person. :D You have the problem, it's not the potential date's problem, it's yours. You bring it up in the relationship. Take some responsibility. When you say "I like women" instead you should clarify "I like cisgendered women".

	Strawman.

Not a strawman. See above.

	An individual's not being able to relate to a transfemale's experience ≠ invalidating their self concept and self worth.

You're going beyond not being able to relate though.

	Hyperbolic appeal to emotion. Slippery slope, non-sequitur, strawman. Hyperbolic poisoning of the well.

Funny. I'm just showing why transphobia is morally wrong in general. Considering it's based off empathy, the appeal to emotion is not a fallacy here.

	Do you think all that scientific duct tape is going to magically cover up global, cross-cultural, and millennia-long symbolism I showed To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ? What does the current perception of society tell you?

An appeal to popular ignorance.....how about you cite sources for the validity of popular belief instead?

	I think they don't disclose because they are ashamed of what they are.

Sounds like projection. You're ashamed at being a transphobic bigot, so instead of disclosing that to potential dates, you assume your special and they must disclose to you because after all, the world revolves around you.

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I fail Miserably.

And you wonder why we don't take you seriously. If this is the best you've got where you have to literally put words in my mouth, it's pathetic. Atleast I'm actually quoting to and responding to the content in your post.

Valiyn: 60 Ur: 0

Cite your sources for your claims.

[Elfrun]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Good point, as long as transwomen are being careful, testing and screening for phobic behaviours. I'd assault you and you might even like it. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Curse your saucy assertive feminine wh-hh-hiles *swoons*

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Stop with that passive-aggressive behavior and address me directly.

Heh, interesting. My behaviour is passive aggressive huh?

Unless you illogically inferred that I was saying you were capable of assaulting a transwoman based on what I wrote the only angles for it to be considered a jab are you either consider your view to be offensive, or you consider the idea that a transwomen would reject you because of your view is offensive. Because they were the only things my comment touched on.

Fact: There are people out there who share your view. Which is transwomen =/= real woman and/or a person is defined by their genitals at birth.

Fact: If a transwomen was interested in dating you and became privy to your view anyone who was sane would not continue a relationship. That is about her integrity/safety, not you.

In the topic of safety, which is what was being discussed, a man who considered a transwomen to be manipulating him in a deceitful manner by not revealing up front her past is going to be the kind of man who will assault her for it. This does not imply that every man who thinks that way will.

You are entitled to your view, I don't judge you because of it, just stop deluding yourself that your view is based on fact not emotion.

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Answer my question:

You asked transwomen to answer, which is why I did not, I'm a guy.

I would not have an issue with dating a transman, but that's pretty irrelevant in the scheme of things as because of my experience I do not hold rigid views on gender. What is relevant is the following:

I do not make presumptions about people in the absence of information.

I do not expect people to blurt out personal things before they get to know and trust me.

I do not view a person as their genitals, or any other physical characteristic.

I ask questions to determine compatibility.

I am responsible for my emotions, no one can "emotionally blackmail" me into anything, your views on transwomen doing that if they do not reveal their past up front are perplexing and odd.

If I had an objection to something specific I would find out where my date stood. Religion for example is of importance to me, or rather the lack of, so I ask questions and if the other person reveals that they are religious I will likely not date them. If I'm the one with the bias the onus is on me to ensure we do not clash because of it.

Don't want to date a transwomen = let your dates know that.

Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If a male prefers a mate who is a complete female it is reasonable for him to assume the females he dates are complete or "real" regardless of the rare incidences of convincing quasi-females (with or sans penii). The quasi-female who is actually aware of the male's reasonable assumption and willingly proceeds to engage the male in a relationship with significant emotional investment on the male's part despite knowing she does not fully fit his reasonable assumption is where the deception lies. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. : to mislead by a false appearance

This is the point we are at an impasse. You see transpeople who do not reveal their past as being deceptive, I expect for consistencies sake you feel the same way about those born with physical intersexed conditions, if you do not then check your bias. However I completely disagree.

Hence impasse. Which is why debating with you would be an exercise in futility.

That said I don't mind answering questions, for as long as my attention span is engaged.

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Would you disclose if you were asked that question on the first date? Why?

Yes. If asked a direct question I would not lie, the exception is in situations where talking of my past would jeopardise other aspects of my life, not limited to safety but that is a big one. If I was unable to answer directly I would not continue things as I, like you, do not consider a relationship developed on deception to be a healthy thing.

Which is also ironically why I do not have an issue with your personal view of not wanting to date a transwomen, I accept that you see it as deception, I simply disagree with your perception of what is real and what is deceptive.

Indubitably has explained one aspect of this, disliking the answer given does not make it invalid.

Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Dear Mr. Uriel, There is nothing about being a trans woman that in any way inhibits an individual's ability to take your order at a restaurant, or join Oprah's book club, or run a company, or any of the other things people do in public society. It doesn't even inhibit their ability to engage a man in terrible small talk while drinking table wine at a cheap Italian bistro, and just like any other woman, the $14.95 he spent on her eggplant parmesean doesn't entitle him to jack shit, one way or the other. She doesn't owe you disclosure any more than you are owed disclosure of the knowledge that the guy you play pool with Friday nights at the rodeo bar is gay, or the lawyer on the other end of the phone line is black, or anyone else owes you a justification for their existence because they deviate from what you expect to be normal. Every day gay men shoot pool without any deliberate attempt to deceive you, and black men practice law without any deliberate attempt to deceive you, and trans women walk down the street minding their own business with no deliberate attempt to deceive you. It happens, get over it.

Transwomen are women, that you cannot see them that way does not invalidate who they are.

[Anhedonic Lake]

Sometimes it's just an exercise in frustration to debate as some people debate purely to reinforce their own beliefs rather than to learn.

[INTJRyan]

I think trans people should have to wear a lanyard around their necks with a life sized picture of their genitals attached to it. And maybe an arrow on it that points down to their crotch so there will be no confusion amongst those people that think trans people should disclose their real identity openly to all at all times. Apparently, gay men have a real problem with the lack of disclosure given their frequent dating of female appearing trans women. This needs to be resolved for the trans person's sake, not my own retarded prejudices.

[Anhedonic Lake]

Originally Posted by INTJRyan To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think trans people should have to wear a lanyard around their necks with a life sized picture of their genitals attached to it. And maybe an arrow on it that points down to their crotch so there will be no confusion amongst those people that think trans people should disclose their real identity openly to all at all times. Apparently, gay men have a real problem with the lack of disclosure given their frequent dating of female appearing trans women. This needs to be resolved for the trans person's sake, not my own retarded prejudices.

It's human nature. The gays were oppressed forty years ago and now they need some group further down the social ladder to oppress to make them feel better and more accepted. I've noticed it's having the opposiate effect. Non gay and non trans people notice this and realise this hypocrisy and end up being more supportive of transsexuals and they end up having less respect for gays.

That's the great thing about free speech. It allows people to make fools of themselves.

[Uriel]

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ignorant popular opinion is not valid.

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You'd know that if you looked at any of the sources I cited instead of remaining ignorant and appealing to the popular (but unscientific) penis = male, vagina = female binary.

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	An appeal to popular ignorance...

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's an appeal to popular consensus. The ideal that penis = male and vagina = female does not compute past high school biology.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
wasn't an appeal to authority or popular consensus.
I did not state that fact as an absolute that disproves the transcommunity's stance.
I pointed it out for them to consider as a hurdle; a big -if not the biggest one in their struggle to be understood and accepted.

The link to the phallus and your litany of scientific duct tape are both facts.
That they conflict with each other does not mean they invalidate each other.
One merely has a lot more influence in the way people think.

Do you deny that my link is more influential in the way people think than the list of scientific duct tape you provided?

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	...how about you cite sources for the validity of popular belief instead?

Have you ever considered that the wikipage is is the explanation for the popular belief?
If you want to see the sources of the page you can scroll towards the bottom.

Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The presence of a penis or a vagina on a female and your exorcism sob-story are both intimate details, but they have one big difference. The latter does not fall under a reasonable assumption based on observable physical appearance and demeanor whereas the former does. They are not comparable regarding physiology-based disclosure. Perhaps you'll win sympathy points from other readers by sharing that sob-story, but you do not get any from me.   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. You are assuming people are cisgender by default. This is not true.

A. What percent of the population is female?
B. What percent of the female population is cisfemale?
C. What percent of the female population is transfemale?
D. What percent of the transfemale population can 'pass' for a cisfemale barring the penis?


To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
: not exceeding the limit prescribed by reason; not excessive

Based on the statistical probability of D in contrast with B, and then contrasted with A:

1. Would it be reasonable to assume that "all cisfemales are cisfemales"?

2. Would it be reasonable to ask transfemaleness to every cisfemale being dated by the male?

In any case, the penis-vagina aspect was not the issue of the statement, it was its comparison to your sob-story then using the sob-story as a platform in order to justify non-disclosure. You are justifying non-disclosure by shifting the issue away from the transfemale and creating false comparisons to other people's issues.

Another million dollar question: Can you justify non-disclosure without making comparisons to others such as race, religion, marriage, cisfemales, and the like?

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	They are under no obligation to tell you otherwise and assume you have a problem with it.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
: something by which a person is bound or obliged to do certain things, and which arises out of a sense of duty or results from custom, law, etc.

Why did you use the word obligation to describe disclosure?

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My own experience was shared because it is evidence trans people (and trans women especially) are taking risk by coming out to anyone. If you think we owe you something because your cisgendered then you are sadly delusional.

See bolded: disclosure is not something that is "owed" to the male, because this is about the transfemale. Disclosure is a show of
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in that the transfemale allows the male to make a choice of whether or not to pursue a relationship with her regardless of her physical condition.

If the male rejects her, then his criteria for relationships lean heavy on physical appearance.


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Using the threat of violence to justify non-disclosure is also bullshit, because if a male who is against it knew beforehand, he would not even date the transfemale to begin with. He would know well enough to stay away from the beginning. Non-disclosure winds up including the males who do have issues against it and will have violent reactions during disclosure.

Transpeople can practice disclosure and weed out fetishists by simply going out with them on dates and getting to know them as individuals, can they not?
Can anyone else see the astounding irony of ironies in this practice?

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Appeal to Emotion.   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. It's what's you fucking asked for!!! You wanted the god damn stats.

Where did I state that I wanted death statistics?

Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No, I am not suggesting it. I am pointing out the presupposition of non-disclosure. Non-disclosure means the transfemale assumes the male will reject her based on her genitalia even if it is not proven. I am not the one practicing non-disclosure, it is the transfemale who is doing so. The transfemale already has a negative assumption of the male from the beginning. Let me put it in simpler terms: Transfemale: I don't trust you, because I know you will reject me based on my genitalia. Therefore I will not disclose it to you.   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. You're bigoted and you're expecting everyone else to be too for this argument to work.

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You're ashamed at being a transphobic bigot[...]

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Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Does cis-female with atypical genitalia = a transfemale born with a penis?   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Cis and Trans come from the same latin prefix. Apparently you need to study more then biology. When rephreased to "does a female with atypical genitalia = a trans woman born with a penis?" then answer is yes as part of an umbrellia of the larger intersex conditions.

I was not asking you to rephrase it before answering it.
I'm going to rephrase it to make my intention more clear:

Is the atypical genitalia on a cis-female comparable in physical appearance and personal issue for the owner with a penis on a transfemale?

Why are you shifting the transfemale's disclosure issue and making it out to be a cisfemale's disclosure issue as well?
It's interesting how you skipped this question in your reply.

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is 1% in relation to 99% a fucking lot of people?   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Of every 100 females you talk to, one doesn't have typical genitalia. It's simple fucking statistics.

You did not answer my question: Is 1% in relation to 99% a fucking lot of people?
I'll give you a hint to make it easier for you: there is only 1 of 2 possible answers to this question.

Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Who gets to decide when the time is right? And regarding the transfemale's disclosure issue, when is the right time? That's the Million Dollar question, isn't it?   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. When she wants to. If you've ever had a woman lose interest in you after a week, it's usually because a red flag has gone up some where. It's like that for every woman, it's how we work. Same with trans, we'll make sure you have morals before dating you simply put.

Would you prefer disclosure to occur before the male makes a significant emotional investment or after?

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You did not answer my question.   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I did answer your question. I'm not bigoted enough to care he was born with a vagina. Why? Because if I said I like men, then by definition of him being a man, he's done nothing wrong.

What sexual organ did you expect him to have when you first met him?

Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I wasn't asking if you "welcome" transmales. I was asking how you would react if a male you naturally assumed had a penis, and made significant time and emotional investment in says: "I was born with a vagina." Furthermore, what if they still had it? Furthermore, would you go ahead and engage him in a relationship?   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. 1) we're included post-ops in this as well. Fundie bigoted territory now. 2) So what if they still had it? They're still a man. Why is this hard for you to understand? 3) Damn straight. If I had a problem with it, it would be my responsibility to say so and bring it up. I would be the one with the fucking problem with it after all.

Like I said; I'll take that as a no.

Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Pointing out the flaws in the arguments of people who support non-disclosure and making supporting arguments for disclosure does not translate to transphobia. Calling me transphobic is a strawman attempt to demonize me.   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. You have a problem accepting a trans woman as female and accepting a trans man as male. That's transphobia, but hopefully one day you'll educate yourself out of the ignorance so you can be a better, non-bigoted person.

Where did I state that I have a problem accepting a transfemale as female?
Where did I state that I have a problem accepting a transmale as a male?

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
: Transphobia is a matrix of cultural and personal beliefs, opinions, attitudes and aggressive behaviors based on prejudice, disgust, fear and/or hatred directed against individuals or groups who do not conform to or who transgress societal gender expectations and norms. Transphobia particularly affects individuals whose lived gender identity or gender expression differs from the gender role assigned to them at birth, and it manifests itself in various ways, e.g., as direct physical violence, transphobic speech and insulting, discriminatory media coverage and social exclusion. It also includes institutionalized forms of discrimination such as criminalization, pathologization, or stigmatization of non-conforming gender identities and gender expressions.

You have to find:
1. personal beliefs, opinions, attitudes and aggressive behaviors that are based on prejudice, disgust, fear and/or hatred [...]
2. transphobic speech

Can you do so?

You also have not answered my other question: 1. Would you disclose if you were asked on the first date? Why?

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	An individual's not being able to relate to a transfemale's experience ≠ invalidating their self concept and self worth.   Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. You're going beyond not being able to relate though.

No, I'm not.

Originally Posted by Elfrun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Heh, interesting. My behaviour is passive aggressive huh? Unless you illogically inferred that I was saying you were capable of assaulting a transwoman based on what I wrote the only angles for it to be considered a jab are you either consider your view to be offensive, or you consider the idea that a transwomen would reject you because of your view is offensive. Because they were the only things my comment touched on.

No.

Mentioning me in your comment to someone else knowing full-well I am actively participating in this thread constitutes the passive-aggressive behavior.

	Originally Posted by Elfrun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In the topic of safety, which is what was being discussed, a man who considered a transwomen to be manipulating him in a deceitful manner by not revealing up front her past is going to be the kind of man who will assault her for it. This does not imply that every man who thinks that way will.

Using the threat of violence to justify non-disclosure is bullshit, because if a male who is against dating a transfemale knew beforehand, he would not even date the transfemale to begin with. If he does not date the transfemale, he does not engage her in violent behavior. He would know well enough to stay away from the beginning. Non-disclosure winds up including the males who do have issues against it and will have violent reactions during disclosure.

( Show Spoiler )

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	Originally Posted by Elfrun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You asked transwomen to answer, which is why I did not, I'm a guy.

My mistake.

	Originally Posted by Elfrun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I do not make presumptions about people in the absence of information.

That does not properly address the reasonable assumptions based on other visual information available.
When you see 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, X, 7, 8, 9, you reasonably assume X is 6 even with the off-chance that it could also be six.

	Originally Posted by Elfrun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I am responsible for my emotions, no one can "emotionally blackmail" me into anything, your views on transwomen doing that if they do not reveal their past up front are perplexing and odd.

Just because you don't believe you can be affected by emotional blackmail, doesn't mean other males can't.

	Originally Posted by Elfrun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If I had an objection to something specific I would find out where my date stood. Religion for example is of importance to me, or rather the lack of, so I ask questions and if the other person reveals that they are religious I will likely not date them. If I'm the one with the bias the onus is on me to ensure we do not clash because of it.

Religious denomination is not comparable to non-disclosure of contrary information regarding reasonable assumption based on statistical probability.

	Originally Posted by Elfrun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Don't want to date a transwomen = let your dates know that.

	Originally Posted by Zinnia Jones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My suggestion was that men for whom this is a concern should first ask if their partner is trans.

A. What percent of the population is female?
B. What percent of the female population is cisfemale?
C. What percent of the female population is transfemale?
D. What percent of the transfemale population can 'pass' for a cisfemale barring the penis?


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: not exceeding the limit prescribed by reason; not excessive

Based on the statistical probability of D in contrast with B, and then contrasted with A:

1. Would it be reasonable to assume that "all cisfemales are cisfemales"?

2. Would it be reasonable to ask transfemaleness to every cisfemale being dated by the male?

There are males with a binary gender paradigm whose dating and relationship pool only include complete females (the ones born with vaginas and uteri). And they would have issues with having an intimate, romantic relationship with anyone who falls outside that pool. They are unaware of the existence of transfemales in the dating and relationship pool, so they believe the only people who fall outside that pool are males. When they find out during the shock of disclosure their issue surfaces arbitrarily.

Just because you're human, it does not mean people automatically assume you're in the dating pool.

1. Males who accept the identity of transfemales, and have accepted their existence in the dating pool, and have added them in their dating pool.
2. Males who accept the identity of transfemales, and have accepted their existence in the dating pool, but do not add them to their dating pool.
3. Males who accept the identity of transfemales, and have not accepted their existence in the dating pool, and do add them to their dating pool.
4. Males who do not accept the identity of transfemales, and have accepted their existence in the dating pool, and do include them in their dating pool.
5. Males who do not accept the identity of transfemales, and have not accepted their existence in the dating pool, and do add them to their dating pool.
6. Males who do not accept the identity of transfemales, and have accepted their existence in the dating pool, and do not add them to their dating pool.
7. Males who accept the identity of transfemales, and have not accepted their existence in the dating pool, and do not add them to their dating pool.
8. Males who do not accept the identity of transfemales, and have not accepted their existence in the dating pool, and do not add them to their dating pool.

Zinnia's argument is against 2, 6, 7, and 8. It is invalid regarding 2 and 6, because it is irrational and unreasonable to expect a male to ask the female he is dating if she is trans given D. A moronic suggestion on her part. Her argument is also invalid regarding 7 and 8, because her argument presupposes the male has accepted the existence of transfemales in the dating pool.

	Originally Posted by Elfrun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I simply disagree with your perception of what is real and what is deceptive.

I acknowledge your acceptance, so let me explain my perception further.
The transfemale's basis for deception is 1st person towards 1st person.
The male's basis for deception is 2nd person towards 1st person.
I was not asking if transfemales are deceiving themselves about their identity. No, we're not!
I was stating that transfemales are deceiving males about their identity. Yes, they are!

	Originally Posted by Anhedonic Lake To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The gays were oppressed forty years ago and now they need some group further down the social ladder to oppress to make them feel better and more accepted. I've noticed it's having the opposiate effect. Non gay and non trans people notice this and realise this hypocrisy and end up being more supportive of transsexuals and they end up having less respect for gays.

See that bolded gem, is it:

1. An observation that can only be verified by you.
2. A fact that can be cited.
3. A passive aggressive attack to demonize a group you assume I associate myself with in an attempt to shame me.
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	Originally Posted by Anhedonic Lake To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Sometimes it's just an exercise in frustration to debate as some people debate purely to reinforce their own beliefs rather than to learn.

It's quite delusional to equate "to learn" as agreeing with the opposition's unsound arguments.

You also need to answer my questions:

1. Would you disclose if you were asked on the first date? Why?

2. How would you react if a male you've made significant emotional investment in says: "I was born with a vagina, and still have it."

3. Can you answer that without bias?

4. Would you still engage him in a relationship?

[Nonsuch]

The primary problem in this thread seems to be one of disagreement over what makes a woman a woman.

Is it primarily a state of mind or one's physical state; that's the question.

If a transwoman is not a woman, then pretending to be a woman is a deception.

If a transwoman is a woman, then there is nothing which need be revealed to the second party.

A very important side issue is the fact that the transwoman's self-identity is intimately bound to the answer to this question.

[stasis]

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How would you react if a male you've made significant emotional investment in says: "I was born with a vagina, and still have it."

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