[RBM]

	Originally Posted by PlatoHagel
	Always looking for fertile ground. I guess one has to understand the motivation in order to express what it is one is doing, again, not in context of the purely intellectual, but how in imagination building that actual information and truth can register.

A nitpick: imagination is not the same as information derived from the LCS's database. It's internally generated versus externally generated, as I understand it.

	So while in dream environs while seemingly chaotic, it is not really so in the sense that their is purpose in observation, and purpose in realization, and that ones observation could have brought you to a place where all things seem to line up, and once there.....well I can leave to your imagination or I can specifically tell you what had currently formed around the pursuit.

Re: chaos or not >A truism from MBT, 'It's all data'.

Remember Chaos Theory, which eventually evolved to Science of Chaos ?

And now it's disappeared ... into everything else. In other words it worked so well it found new acceptance in a wide variety of disciplines.

[PlatoHagel]

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A nitpick: imagination is not the same as information derived from the LCS's database. It's internally generated versus externally generated, as I understand it.

You are a receiver of sorts, qui/non? Where in the understanding of the NPMR do you locate this information/data? Your VR Conjecture recognize positional views with regard to Plato and Aristotle? Define exactly NPMR. I can say from Young's experiment this may be clearer?

Lets say that the site link I have provide of my own asks you to qualify the data base from which you have summarize answers to the points of view I resend to you from the MBT condensive informational set you have adopted?

I am saying in context of Plato, "the data" is all around you?

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And now it's disappeared ... into everything else. In other words it worked so well it found new acceptance in a wide variety of disciplines.

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by PlatoHagel
	You are a receiver of sorts, qui/non?

Na
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not really, I just read 'the book'.

Your reply is longwinded, which is not a negative to me, in itself. It does include touching on some topics we have already discussed.

Due to the repetition, I'd suggest the same to you ^_^ ;-)

[jamierod91]

Multiverse for the win!

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by jamierod91 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Multiverse for the win!

Hey, nice chearleading !!!! Plus, add another to you post count, eh ?

I'll guess you didn't watch to the OP 'TOE link'. It addresses the multiverse theory with a brief observations of 'there are problems with it' if I recall correctly.

Garbage in, Garbage out.

[PlatoHagel]

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Na To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. not really, I just read 'the book'.

It really doesn't hit home until you experience it?
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Travel with the writer?

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Your reply is longwinded, which is not a negative to me, in itself. It does include touching on some topics we have already discussed.

What I explained took many years, so "long winded" was kind of insulting. I understand how one could react in a kind of EGO hurt kind of way.....but again that is the point about perfecting is to become a better human being. Not just saying it and reading to gather knowledge from a book. You have to live it.

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Due to the repetition, I'd suggest the same to you ^_^ ;-)

---------- Post added 06-11-2012 at 05:39 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by jamierod91 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Multiverse for the win!

It's not about winning but about trying to explain....and for some, it is not logically consistent because they may have lacked the information in one area or another? But, I could be wrong
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	To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. - It is a sardonic comment on the tendency to put excessive trust in "computerized" data, and on the propensity for individuals to blindly accept what the computer says.

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. I'm just saying.
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[RBM]

	Originally Posted by PlatoHagel
	What I explained took many years, so "long winded" was kind of insulting

I've mentioned in other threads that I lead my life as consciously as I can as a scientist carrying out experiments called 'LIFE'. The 'hitting home' is a gradual process of seems to be ignored until an 'AHA' moment hits 'home'. Then when that hypothesis is confirmed onward to a new hypothesis, and it all cycles again.

I thought it sounded kind of harsh, but tack has never been a strong suit of mine. Everyone's path of discovery is a matter of attachment (in the Buddhist sense) at first. That may last for one's life or it may cross into a different phase and become transient at any time in that physical life.

As I stated my usage of 'longwinded' though is not itself an issue. For example, Tom's book, the trilogy, is 820 pages. It's the longest book in my memory that I have ever read. In addition the writing style had lots of repetition in it, (the story of why is explained in the book and elsewhere). And I would classify that work as longwinded.

	Originally Posted by PlatoHagel
	and for some, it is not logically consistent because they may have lacked the information in one area or another? But, I could be wrong

To admit that one can't see the logical consistency, flat out, would be an honest and forthright statement - 'low entropy' in MBT parlance.

In most case in my experience, here, that's NOT what happens, statistically speaking. What usually happens is some form of EGO-gratification - 'high entropy' in MBT parlance.

[PlatoHagel]

Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I've mentioned in other threads that I lead my life as consciously as I can as a scientist carrying out experiments called 'LIFE'. The 'hitting home' is a gradual process of seems to be ignored until an 'AHA' moment hits 'home'. Then when that hypothesis is confirmed onward to a new hypothesis, and it all cycles again. I thought it sounded kind of harsh, but tack has never been a strong suit of mine. Everyone's path of discovery is a matter of attachment (in the Buddhist sense) at first. That may last for one's life or it may cross into a different phase and become transient at any time in that physical life. As I stated my usage of 'longwinded' though is not itself an issue. For example, Tom's book, the trilogy, is 820 pages. It's the longest book in my memory that I have ever read. In addition the writing style had lots of repetition in it, (the story of why is explained in the book and elsewhere). And I would classify that work as longwinded. To admit that one can't see the logical consistency, flat out, would be an honest and forthright statement - 'low entropy' in MBT parlance. In most case in my experience, here, that's NOT what happens, statistically speaking. What usually happens is some form of EGO-gratification - 'high entropy' in MBT parlance.

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	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As I stated my usage of 'longwinded' though is not itself an issue. For example, Tom's book, the trilogy, is 820 pages. It's the longest book in my memory that I have ever read. In addition the writing style had lots of repetition in it, (the story of why is explained in the book and elsewhere). And I would classify that work as longwinded.

Thanks for clarifying. Your impatience is more to do with how you want to deal directly with as much of the truth about life as you can because of your experiences. How much time you have and how much you can fit into it as you can. So, there is only so much room. I understand that.

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've mentioned in other threads that I lead my life as consciously as I can as a scientist carrying out experiments called 'LIFE'. The 'hitting home' is a gradual process of seems to be ignored until an 'AHA' moment hits 'home'. Then when that hypothesis is confirmed onward to a new hypothesis, and it all cycles again.

The 'aha' moment is a quest of mine so as to get the message across in the most purist form as possible without discrimination. But alas it is true that we come with our bias and our baggage.

	Originally Posted by Platohagel
	I was thinking more of an "immediate translation" without discrimination. In context of the professional or the scientist, which I am neither but learning. Would it be like setting up the question for a "partitioning of it to reduce it too." Simplify. Am I wrong in this?See: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

See Also:
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It is placed as a philosophical question of how can we simplify that transference....but in context of
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and in measure how can you measure your intuition and recognize the truth in the most simplest of statements? Your aha is a immediate recognition of the greater potential as it all comes together in your mind in a split second? There is no possible way to measure that in any VR way?

Unless, you believe it is the synapse with which such potentials allow information into your brain. You know I mean more then just the matter aspect of the thinking potential. The complete grokking of the subject at hand.

So the synapse is a portal of a kind in terms of your connection to a vast reservoir of information? If you stand at the portal, and have access to all information, how big is your memory that you can draw from experience? If you are standing "at the portal" then it is about your last question asked. Who is the questioner/observer but to have realized you are an accumulation of the information you have assimilated in life? It is more then the question itself if you understand what I am saying. It is more then a question mark appearing at the end of the sentence.

[MysteriousGnome]

	Originally Posted by PlatoHagel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's not about winning but about trying to explain....and for some, it is not logically consistent because they may have lacked the information in one area or another? But, I could be wrong To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This definitely rings true. In a lot of spiritual contexts it is said that one has to be ready to take the path and I've definitely experienced the same in this case. When I first came upon this TOE there were some critical aspects of it that just didn't fit with my data and I rejected it. I should say I did not read the book and if I had that probably wouldn't have been an issue. In any case, I later came across the delayed choice quantum eraser experiment. It certainly caused a significant shaking of my beliefs. And when I revisited the TOE later the same things that didn't fit before suddenly made sense.

[Sk8ordude]

I've independently came to many of the same conclusions (in a speculative sense) as Dr. Campbell, just with different terminology as I see it as a big picture sort of thing. I cant agree with everything though, specifically the notion that the primary is in a state of evolution, it just doesn't seem to work without a beginning. It begs the question of "Why is it more just now, why not infinity ago". Basically why would it ever exist as less then its potential?

If our perspectives are part of maximizing the total potential, then we exist as a concept in a chain of logic within that static potential that is the giant idea of existance. Just as the variables within an equation exist as points within that equation. Evolution at best is just the logic of the equation, but if it exists totally in the present is it really evolution and was it ever less?

...Bonus points if you understand what I am trying to convey with that.=)

[MysteriousGnome]

I actually view the assumption "Evolution exists" as completely inconsequential. It kind of implies that evolution is an active force directing the development, but I don't view it that way. In my view evolution is interpretation of development. It is basically a tautology, it exists because it exists. Evolution is just change, any direction or purpose you see in it is just in the interpretation. If you replaced that assumption with "Change exists" then all the same conclusions would follow.

[PlatoHagel]

Hi MysteriousGnome, Sk8ordude

Originally Posted by Sk8ordude To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I've independently came to many of the same conclusions (in a speculative sense) as Dr. Campbell, just with different terminology as I see it as a big picture sort of thing. I cant agree with everything though, specifically the notion that the primary is in a state of evolution, it just doesn't seem to work without a beginning. It begs the question of "Why is it more just now, why not infinity ago". Basically why would it ever exist as less then its potential? If our perspectives are part of maximizing the total potential, then we exist as a concept in a chain of logic within that static potential that is the giant idea of existance. Just as the variables within an equation exist as points within that equation. Evolution at best is just the logic of the equation, but if it exists totally in the present is it really evolution and was it ever less? ...Bonus points if you understand what I am trying to convey with that.=)

I believe it to be true that any two life paths will be totally different in our acquiring knowledge. Where this knowledge crosses path with different systems of knowledge we can gain in experience.

From the super set title here it was important that we might see evolution in the sense you are both portraying it. That it is "an over arching component" of the reality existing for us all.

Might I try to explain it in another way?

In process control, I might have been part of the system for many years but after becoming very proficient in the different aspects of the totality of the system, I sit above it controlling all the components of it to a desired end?

I offered in relation a recognition of the subconscious reality in my dreaming in my youth that I could recognize a higher aspect of all our intelligence as existing within us? Some might recognize that feature and others not so. That's okay. It does not take away from the belief that I have that this intelligence exists in us all. In ancient times they may of called it the
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but not to be confused with "the evil part of our desire" but to become in tune with with a greater portion of the reality and not just the life we are engaged in?

Might I have discover the subject of the over soul in all this? How have we hidden this aspect of ourselves from the realization that we are part and parcel of something much larger?

I believe in my heart when the platonic discourse was written that Plato thought well of
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as he went through the public of the time. Listening for this intelligence to manifest through people. It really is about us listening and listening well, not only to others, but to also listen to what is going on inside.

[SJ10]

Originally Posted by Sk8ordude To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I've independently came to many of the same conclusions (in a speculative sense) as Dr. Campbell, just with different terminology as I see it as a big picture sort of thing. I cant agree with everything though, specifically the notion that the primary is in a state of evolution, it just doesn't seem to work without a beginning. It begs the question of "Why is it more just now, why not infinity ago". Basically why would it ever exist as less then its potential? If our perspectives are part of maximizing the total potential, then we exist as a concept in a chain of logic within that static potential that is the giant idea of existance. Just as the variables within an equation exist as points within that equation. Evolution at best is just the logic of the equation, but if it exists totally in the present is it really evolution and was it ever less? ...Bonus points if you understand what I am trying to convey with that.=)

This is one of my biggest questions regarding MBT. I keep coming back to the anthropic principle with regard to timing but I don't know.

I do feel the virtual reality model fits the best but it's hard to extrapolate as far as Dr. Campbell without the personal insight.

[RBM]

For those interested, the TOE does have a wiki site. It's stripped down from the book with the essentials - as far as it has gotten, as it's incomplete at this moment and work on it is ongoing.

---------- Post added 06-13-2012 at 03:15 PM ----------

	I do feel the virtual reality model fits the best but it's hard to extrapolate as far as Dr. Campbell without the personal insight.

First a minor correction - there is no 'Doctor' Campbell. Tom never got a PhD. This can be easily confirmed from the appropriate sources.

@SJ10

There are several others who are theorizing in regard to VR's.Two, for example,
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and
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What out, of curiosity, do you want to extrapolate TO ?

With my sense and usage of the key term 'extrapolate' I'm grasping for a handle on your query.

[SJ10]

For some reason I thought Tom had a PhD in physics, not that that's a requirement.

I'll have to read Bostroms book again. I have his main work on Anthropic Bias but for some reason I didn't think he was in favor of VR. I'll have to check that though.

As far as extrapolating. Tom has a unique perspective that allows him to combine a intellectual and experiential (metaphysical, NPMR) side to form his theory. At this point, which I guess is somewhere at the beginning, I have to go mostly on an intellectual standpoint of quantum mechanics, VR, and thermodynamics, while extrapolating (building ahead of my bootstrapping with this new knowledge basis). To where is more open ended. From where, are the basics I just mentioned.

[RBM]

RE: PhD

I have informed the OP of his error at his personal blog. He made changes there as I recall, but has not here, at INTJ, for whatever reason.

The only work of Bostrom's I've read is related to the 'simulation argument'.

If you are using 'extrapolation' as a euphemism for whatever is after the intellect - that would be, likely, a meditative state of consciousness or otherwise non-normal waking state as in 'altered state of consciousness'.

But you don't have to go 'elsewhere' as far as states of consciousness are concerned. Normal waking state for most people is at a really minimum operating level of awareness. One can improve that by working at it or by intent per Tom's definition.

[PlatoHagel]

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	RE: PhD I have informed the OP of his error at his personal blog. He made changes there as I recall, but has not here, at INTJ, for whatever reason.

No edit button here at beginning of OP

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by PlatoHagel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No edit button here at beginning of OP

Yeah, INTJ has a timeout parameter apparently on the edit function.

---------- Post added 06-14-2012 at 03:36 PM ----------

@SJ10

	Originally Posted by RBM
	But you don't have to go 'elsewhere' as far as states of consciousness are concerned. Normal waking state for most people is at a really minimum operating level of awareness. One can improve that by working at it or by intent per Tom's definition.

I have a flowchart saved, that was put together by a reader of MBT with Tom's input titled "How Do I Improve Myself at the Being Level'.

It's a simple flowchart but if interested, let me know and I'll get it hosted to link to it.

[SJ10]

^Yes, please link or PM me. Thanks

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by SJ10 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	^Yes, please link or PM me. Thanks

Here's the link to the flowchart:
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[Shadizar]

This strikes me as the Venus Dilemma.

	Originally Posted by Carl Sagan
	It goes like this; Problem - we can't see the surface of Venus, Conclusion - dinosaurs

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by Shadizar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This strikes me as the Venus Dilemma.

I'm not sure what specifically you see as the dilemma, but if it's a dilemma to you that's just a clue of where you are - or aren't depending on word phrasing.

[MysteriousGnome]

Looking at that flowchart makes me feel the same way as if someone would tell me you have to love god and devote everything to god so that you can join him in next life. And my reaction is the same in both cases, I'm not ready to leave just yet, there's much to see here still.

[Shadizar]

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm not sure what specifically you see as the dilemma, but if it's a dilemma to you that's just a clue of where you are - or aren't depending on word phrasing.

Pardon my bias, I'm probably being an ass. A superset universe title, quickly followed up with fine tuned for life, I skipped the links and skimmed some posts and blurped the above. "We currently can't see beyond, therefore... X"
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[RBM]

	Originally Posted by Shadizar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Pardon my bias, I'm probably being an ass. A superset universe title, quickly followed up with fine tuned for life, I skipped the links and skimmed some posts and blurped the above. "We currently can't see beyond, therefore... X" To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Hahaha, OK, you lay floors so you've never used a flowchart, yea or nay ?

My first exposure to such charts was in a tech vocation. They work, if designed properly. Don't work well if not designed properly.

---------- Post added 06-15-2012 at 09:19 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by MysteriousGnome To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Looking at that flowchart makes me feel the same way as if someone would tell me you have to love god and devote everything to god so that you can join him in next life. And my reaction is the same in both cases, I'm not ready to leave just yet, there's much to see here still.

Tell you ? Is your EGO upset already ? >>

"Awareness of action, thought, feeling, want, need, desire: with self or others."

Hahaha, this is the way the system works. Simply. It's something that a person can prove/disprove as a matter of choice, in this life.

No god/dog mentioned, so I'd say you got at least one non-related issue popping up in confusion.