[LadySpock]

	Originally Posted by xavier3961 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	LadySpockIt is not what Society says it is what you yourself believe you are that matters.

That is a dangerous lie...and with that kind of attitude you will not survive the zombie apocalypse.

If the only thing that matters is what we believe about ourselves there would be no racism, sexism, or "isms" of any kind...There would be no murders, rapes, or robberies. There would be no need for the police, the military, or personal firearms. There would be no market for toothpaste of deodorant either.

What every adult knows: What other people think really does matter. Other people's thoughts and perceptions of you can bring you orgasmic happiness or soul crushing pain. I can explore this concept a little more if you like. Just let me know...

	There is always wiggle room darling, nothing is a perfect science and just as you float b/t Black Love and White Hate I can be Ab or aB at times.

Cupcake, the problem is that your earlier ASSertions were absolute: You stated quite clearly that there were two dstinct types of Black people: Fake Black Uncle Toms with 300 square foot homes and BMWs versus the negrows who be keepin' it real in da 'hood with a rental & a bus pass. ((insert dry heave))

Now... I asked the following: What accomplishments are you proud of? List the top 3.

And you answers are laughable...

	1. The Perseverance in the Direct Face of Racism.

Too abstract. Give a concrete example of how you accomplish this.

	2. Placing me into a position to challenge the Misconceptions about my race.

This qualifies as an "accomplishment"? ((open laughter)) It sounds like an inconvenience at best.

Allow me to share something with you: I recently went to my mom's homeland in the Caribbean. IT WAS FUCKING AWESOME.

(If anyone is White & is reading this - please accept my apologies in advance ....I am just being honest about something which you may not understand.)

Part of the awesomeness was NOT having to deal with White people (unless they were my relatives) and their fucking isms. I was treated with respect EVERYWHERE I went. I was not followed in any stores as a theft prevention measure or instructed on menu prices at the beginning of my meal as a way to cleverly make sure I could pay. The radio broadcasts were by educated Black people chatting about cricket or politics or education.

I was NOT blonde but I was still very beautiful. My dark skin looked like everyone else's and we were ALL comfortable with each other.

I was so fucking comfortable and so goddamned happy I was almost in tears when we had to leave.

There were NO WHITE PEOPLE and their stupid thoughts about me to contend with. NONE!

Being put in a position to have to challenge misconceptions about my "race" is an accomplishment? 100% Absurd.

	3.Your Parents for giving Birth to you.

This qualifies as an "accomplishment"?

Two people fuck & 9 months later a baby is born. Wow.

	What better way to establish yourself with those that despise you than than Affirm that their offspring will be your servants. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The subjugation of others as a means to happiness? Then why are you angry at White people for subjugating you?

[Nemesis]

pfft.

Chipo would say otherwise...

[xavier3961]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Seems like you have quite a lot of "Hate" yourself. Justice and vengeance are the same for you?

I don't "Hate" it is for those that cannot be their own Individual. As for the statement it is just my way to insure that people cannot figure me out until they want to understand me.

	Originally Posted by LadySpock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That is a dangerous lie...and with that kind of attitude you will not survive the zombie apocalypse.

Zombie Apocalypse for real? If I can convince the White man with the Gun that I can Cook, Clean and Caddy I will survive. Zombie is just Code for Minorities and unprepared whites that didn't read either The Little Red Hen or The Ant and the Grasshopper, who will becoming to their homes to take their Prepper Stash. The Negro, Latino and Jew will always survive, we have experienced the worst the White man and Mother Earth can dish out and we are still here.

	If the only thing that matters is what we believe about ourselves there would be no racism, sexism, or "isms" of any kind...There would be no murders, rapes, or robberies. There would be no need for the police, the military, or personal firearms.

I believe I am more Black than you.

	There would be no market for toothpaste of deodorant either.

You must have never vacationed in the Appalachia or the Ozarks.

	What every adult knows: What other people think really does matter. Other people's thoughts and perceptions of you can bring you orgasmic happiness or soul crushing pain. I can explore this concept a little more if you like. Just let me know...

So I am justified assigning blame for my failures to the White man b/c they are the ones that control the program of thought and perception. We should all just be "Good little Niggers" and accept what Fate the Gods allow.

	the problem is that your earlier ASSertions were absolute: You stated quite clearly that there were two dstinct types of Black people

I have never said these are the only types of Black people, the Group A and Group B came from a reply from Polymath20 pg. 5 #116. However; I do agree that these two distinct types of thinking dominate the Black culture and that is where it falls to us to make a change.

	Too abstract. Give a concrete example of how you accomplish this.

1. Growing up in an All White Neighborhood I was directly told that b/c I was Black I was not smart enough to go to college. He reminded me of this until I ask him to attend my Graduation, he declined, but God Bless him whatever he has placed him.

	It sounds like an inconvenience at best.

2. I spent my whole life under the watchful eye of whites some where comfortable with Blacks, but the majority were not and let their thoughts be known. They where sold on the stereotypes about Blacks which my parents and grandparents fully knew. The neighborhood we lived in and the church's we attended were just a shave away from White Supremacy, so I took my share of name calling, Nigger jokes and the constant "Why do Black people...?". By my for parents raising me in this environment and under these some would say painful conditions I was able to show many of them who I am friends with today that not all Blacks "are" or "do" this or that. I count it a privilege to be able to accept and understand the ways of White America not to be an "Uncle Tom", but to know what to expect from the hunter and to be able to Defeat him at his own Game.

the awesomeness was NOT having to deal with White people (unless they were my relatives) and their fucking isms. I was treated with respect EVERYWHERE I went. I was not followed in any stores as a theft prevention measure or instructed on menu prices at the beginning of my meal as a way to cleverly make sure I could pay. ...I was still very beautiful. My dark skin looked like everyone else's and we were ALL comfortable with each other. I was so fucking comfortable and so goddamned happy I was almost in tears when we had to leave.

That's how it was at Mama Nems here in Orlando. I felt like I belonged
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.

Not to be a
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, but why didn't you stay in this Utopia?

	Two people fuck & 9 months later a baby is born. Wow.

3. You are not a stereotypical Black Female are you? By them having you when they did gives us as Blacks another opportunity to show White America that we are a people that can be an Asset to our Country and take care of ourselves in the Process.

	The subjugation of others as a means to happiness? Then why are you angry at White people for subjugating you?

See Reply to plotthickens

[LadySpock]

Xavier,

This discussion has gone completely off the rails.

You named NO accomplishments...total bullshit: 2 people having a baby is an "accomplishment"? being in a position to deliberately irritate white people is an "accomplishment"?

I want you to know that after reading your comments, I truly felt revulsion. The ignorance stinks as bad as death on a hot day.

"Us Blacks"? I am not in any category with you.

I can only hope that your vision becomes less cloudy as you mature.

[xavier3961]

The Discussion is off the Rails b/c You don't know where you are on the Color Spectrum. But no matter I still Love You.

[LadySpock]

Let me guess - you "love" me because I am Black.

[zibber]

I think you know the answer.

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is Obama a secret Muslim or something?

it's staring you

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is Obama a secret Muslim or something?

directly

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is Obama a secret Muslim or something?

in the FACE

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is Obama a secret Muslim or something?

It's the ghost of the honorable Elijah Muhammad brainwashing the black sheep of Comerica.

[KonTiki]

I recommend James Taronto of the WSJ for a well-reasoned conservative perspective on why blacks vote democratic ~90% of the time. Below is one example.


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[larkin]

	Originally Posted by KonTiki To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I recommend James Taronto of the WSJ for a well-reasoned conservative perspective on why blacks vote democratic ~90% of the time. Below is one example. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

As usual, Taranto and the other conservatives like to pretend that nothing has happened after 1965. Want to know racism in the 40+ years since? Just listen to Rush Limbaugh, or read John Derbyshire. Or James Taranto and other legions of their enablers and excusers.

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As usual, Taranto and the other conservatives like to pretend that nothing has happened after 1965. We're not that stupid. Want to know racism these days? Just listen to Rush Limbaugh, or read John Derbyshire. Or James Taranto and other legions of their enablers and excusers.

These days the most dangerous thing in the world to a young American black male is another young American black male. I don't think you can blame things like that on Rush or anyone else other than black society. Even when Bill Cosby brings up these issues they try to shut him up.

What do you think of black society now versus pre-1965? I would argue that society gives them more welfare/affirmative action job opportunities than ever and black society has lots of problems, relatively speaking. Is blaming conservatives for those problems accurate? What has Obama and the Democrats done for the average black person since he was elected? I would argue the Democrats and Republicans saved a bunch of fat cat bankers and shafted the rest of America, black white brown and yellow.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	These days the most dangerous thing in the world to a young American black male is another young American black male.

More so than an American cop?

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	More so than an American cop?

Look up the answers to such simple questions next time.

[crowbird213]

The biggest reason is that socialists propaganda is aimed at low and no income people. Blacks have lower incomes overall.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Look up the answers to such simple questions next time.

But I look to you for reliable sources.

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But I look to you for reliable sources.

Then don't question what I post.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Then don't question what I post.

You didn't provide a source.

[larkin]

Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

These days the most dangerous thing in the world to a young American black male is another young American black male. I don't think you can blame things like that on Rush or anyone else other than black society. Even when Bill Cosby brings up these issues they try to shut him up. [...] What do you think of black society now versus pre-1965? I would argue that society gives them more welfare/affirmative action job opportunities than ever and black society has lots of problems, relatively speaking.

Oh, I think I've made my thoughts on this matter quite clear - steadfast insistence on blaming "black culture" absent reference to 300 years of history in this country is an absurd exercise, to put it mildly. Frankly, I'm not in any kind of position to self-righteously diagnose problems with any other culture that I'm not a part of. If Bill Cosby wants to make comment on it, that's his choice.

What we are in a far better position to judge is the poisonous political dialogue in this country, and again, the multiple people who excuse or enable it.

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You didn't provide a source.

Neither did you. You just threw out a red herring.

Do your own homework. I don't have the time or the patience to teach you the facts of life as it pertains to blacks in America per Autumnleaf. If you catch me passing false or misleading information then call me on it and post a link to a good source. If not then please don't waste my time.

---------- Post added 06-10-2012 at 07:13 PM ----------

Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Oh, I think I've made my thoughts on this matter quite clear - steadfast insistence on blaming "black culture" absent reference to 300 years of history in this country is an absurd exercise, to put it mildly. Frankly, I'm not in any kind of position to self-righteously diagnose problems with any other culture that I'm not a part of. If Bill Cosby wants to make comment on it, that's his choice. What we are in a far better position to judge is the poisonous political dialogue in this country, and again, the multiple people who excuse or enable it.

We are in a position to judge the actions of people. Black people end up in prison more often and black men kill each other more often than other people in America. If political dialogue is more important to you than dealing with those facts then I find myself more concerned for black people than you are.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Neither did you. You just threw out a red herring. Do your own homework. I don't have the time or the patience to teach you the facts of life as it pertains to blacks in America per Autumnleaf. If you catch me passing false or misleading information then call me on it and post a link to a good source. If not then please don't waste my time.

Or I could start a thread smearing young black American men with the suggestion of irresponsibility and unreliability while refusing to take responsibility for my lack of credibility, but I'm too busy flinging fish, apparently.

How about you show me yours and I'll show you mine?

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We are in a position to judge the actions of people. Black people end up in prison more often and black men kill each other more often than other people in America.

Are you judging the actions of people or their color? If you want to talk about criminals, talk about criminals. But you're not.

As I've said before, I studied history and public affairs economics, later clinical psychology. All dedicated, in one sense or another, to drawing insight into future behavior. And the most accurate in doing so was almost always clinical psychology. Human behavior is far too multifactorial to successfully predict behavior in large groups in all but the most simplified, controlled, and otherwise unrealistic settings.

If you can't even recognize the basic limitations on your own ability to judge, I can promise you you're in no position to do so. To say nothing of this obvious limitation:

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Or I could start a thread smearing young black American men with the suggestion of irresponsibility and unreliability while refusing to take responsibility for my lack of credibility, but I'm too busy flinging fish, apparently.

>>>>>>

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If political dialogue is more important to you than dealing with those facts then I find myself more concerned for black people than you are.

Yes, yes, all that genuine concern wrapped in the process of judgment and blame, again! Here's a good post online that references this matter; the writer is referencing libertarians in this particular post, but to be fair to them they're far more likely not to bother to dress their position up in all this paternalism.

Originally Posted by Freddie DeBoer

I would compare this issue to the DC handgun ban. I’m agnostic on gun control, in many instances; I don’t know if I can support banning the legitimate use of something because of its misuse by others. But I also recognize that DC is a community that has been absolutely ravaged by gun violence for decades, and that desperate residents and city officials were attempting to solve an intractable and debilitating problem. But during the Supreme Court case that overturned that ban, I saw essentially no commentary from institutional libertarianism that acknowledged the ugly aesthetics of a bunch of white, privileged libertarians working to undermine efforts to reduce gun crime in a city with the second highest murder rate in the country and a child poverty rate near 30%. It was as if those people and their efforts to solve those problems simply didn’t exist.

In other words, there have been actual efforts (outside of gun control) to deal with these problems by the communities themselves. That it's invisible to you, well, not surprising.

Oh, and another big surprise - political dialogue, especially poisonous political dialogue, affects all of our ability to influence these problems. Look at the south for...oh, well, since the country was fucking founded. Can't find a way to move on, then you won't ever move on. And tell me, how to move on when one party finds it in their political best interest never to do so? When they've built their electoral strategy for the past 40 years around not doing so?

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Or I could start a thread smearing young black American men with the suggestion of irresponsibility and unreliability while refusing to take responsibility for my lack of credibility, but I'm too busy flinging fish, apparently. How about you show me yours and I'll show you mine?

There are a hand full of people around here who seem to contribute solely by throwing odd things and hoping that they stick. Good luck to you.

---------- Post added 06-10-2012 at 09:43 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Are you judging the actions of people or their color? If you want to talk about criminals, talk about criminals. But you're not.

I'm talking about the actions of subsets of society. Maybe its easier to pretend its not going on. I haven't tried denial yet. Maybe such denial and lashing out at anyone who brings it up will be better received by some people.

	Yes, yes, all that genuine concern wrapped in the process of judgment and blame, again! Here's a good post online that references this matter; the writer is referencing libertarians in this particular post, but to be fair to them they're far more likely not to bother to dress their position up in all this paternalism.

You seem to be on the same wavelength as the person who posted that. I'm starting to understand you better. Thanks for the clarification.

**Edit. My niece lives with me because her mother is an addict in rehab and her black father is dead because his black cousin killed him before she was born. There are real people behind the statistic of black men killing black men. It needs to stop.

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm talking about the actions of subsets of society. Maybe its easier to pretend its not going on. I haven't tried denial yet. Maybe such denial and lashing out at anyone who brings it up will be better received by some people.

For the last time: the "actions" you are talking about are not the actions of "black people." As others have pointed out, most black people are middle class.

If you're going to bring up a problem, bring up the actual problem - criminal violence among young black men in inner-city, lower-income black communities. Those qualifications alone shed more light on the problem than this generic and often insulting "black community" modifier. (Hat tip - I wonder if this has anything to do with the drug war? And I wonder why the party and President that promoted the "law and order" policies that criminalized, imprisoned and disenfranchised 1 in 6 people in the U.S. convicted of felonies for non-violent drug offenses chose that particular political strategy?)

You start to see why (white) people who (repeatedly) ask "what's wrong with black America, and why haven't (they) done anything about it?" while remaining (purposely) blind to the privilege, policy, and racist electoral strategy that's contributed to it, might be perceived as being more interested in blame than answers? But at this point Rush et al do far, far worse than that.

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You seem to be on the same wavelength as the person who posted that. I'm starting to understand you better. Thanks for the clarification.

I certainly don't agree with all or even most of what Freddie DeBoer writes, but he's very good at expressing his opinion.

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	**Edit. My niece lives with me because her mother is an addict in rehab and her black father is dead because his black cousin killed him before she was born. There are real people behind the statistic of black men killing black men. It needs to stop.

I have no doubt your opinions are genuinely held, but that's frankly irrelevant.

[Maybe to Dream]

Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

For the last time: the "actions" you are talking about are not the actions of "black people." As others have pointed out, most black people are middle class. If you're going to bring up a problem, bring up the actual problem - criminal violence among young black men in inner-city, lower-income black communities. Those qualifications alone shed more light on the problem than this generic and often insulting "black community" modifier. (Hat tip - I wonder if this has anything to do with the drug war? And I wonder why the party and President that promoted the "law and order" policies that criminalized, imprisoned and disenfranchised 1 and 6 people in the U.S. for non-violent drug offenses chose that particular political strategy?) You start to see why (white) people who (repeatedly) ask "what's wrong with black America, and why haven't (they) done anything about it?" while remaining (purposely) blind to the privilege, policy, and racist electoral strategy that's contributed to it, might be perceived as being more interested in blame than answers? But at this point Rush et al do far, far worse than that.

Actually...It's all making sense to me now...Call me crazy but I think part of this can be explained if these folks are afraid.

The reason I suspect this is because this line of thinking tends to happen with people who don't understand how violence and violent people actually work from either a cultural perspective or a socio-economic one. -Of course some of it is also confirmation bias, tunnel vision, and racism since the stats clearly don't bear out this idea that blacks are concentrated in the ghetto and accounting for most of the people on welfare. Even the education statistics were somewhat decent considering that the inner city likely would be bringing down the numbers.

But anyway

If you're middle class, you live in a world that has completely different social norms than the ones found in the inner city. Since it seems like most people are culturally tone deaf, it'd be easy to look at the results (higher violent crime rates) and the seemingly "senseless violence" but not be able to appreciate the psychology behind most physical attacks or the level of actual danger you're in if you do get robbed or what-have-you.

At a guess I'd say that this combination of uncertainty and the black=criminal association makes these individuals fearful for their own safety (and those of other white people) in a roundabout way but also contemptuous/resentful because maybe the fear is viewed as an infringement of their rights? A lot of this isn't backed up by the facts really any more but it also allows for a combination of Just World thinking, low IQ rates and race, talk about rioting and other primitive behaviour from those uncivilized black people, and just more dehumanization and superiority complexes in general.

And of course there's the people who are passing their subtle bigotry down to their children as the years go by...

Factor in the media/popular depictions of blacks, the personal anecdotes, and the tendency people have to see "others" as one and the same and I think the rest is pretty straightforward honestly. It's a shame though because if these attitudes keep up while demographics continue to change, I'm not sure how Americans plan to stay competitive in a world that's becoming increasingly multi-polar in terms of power dynamics. So I guess there'd be a cultural element involved as well. At least that's the working theory I'm starting to put together.

[KonTiki]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As usual, Taranto and the other conservatives like to pretend that nothing has happened after 1965. Want to know racism in the 40+ years since? Just listen to Rush Limbaugh, or read John Derbyshire. Or James Taranto and other legions of their enablers and excusers.

I think that it's the Left that acts as though nothing has changed since 1965. It's hard for me to believe that this country is extremely racist when we have Obama as president.

[larkin]

Originally Posted by Maybe to Dream To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If you're middle class, you live in a world that has completely different social norms than the ones found in the inner city. Since it seems like most people are culturally tone deaf, it'd be easy to look at the results (higher violent crime rates) and the seemingly "senseless violence" but not be able to appreciate the psychology behind most physical attacks or the level of actual danger you're in if you do get robbed or what-have-you. [...] At a guess I'd say that this combination of uncertainty and the black=criminal association makes these individuals fearful for their own safety (and those of other white people) in a roundabout way but also contemptuous/resentful because maybe the fear is viewed as an infringement of their rights? A lot of this isn't backed up by the facts really any more but it also allows for a combination of Just World thinking, low IQ rates and race, talk about rioting and other primitive behaviour from those uncivilized black people, and just more dehumanization and superiority complexes in general.

All of the cognitive biases are at play here. But I think actor-observer is the most relevant - when judging others, we're all prone to overestimating cultural, personality or genetic factors and underestimating situational factors. (When tending to assume the opposite about our own behavior.) The more alien the culture, the less empathy people are able to generate, the more that bias tends to come into play. The fundamental misconceptions that people in sheltered environments have about people outside that environment is pretty astounding. (Jews drink the blood of Muslim children; the
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.) Assumptions/ intuition need to be constantly challenged and adapted, through experience and analysis.

	Originally Posted by KonTiki To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think that it's the Left that acts as though nothing has changed since 1965. It's hard for me to believe that this country is extremely racist when we have Obama as president.

Bolded statement is borderline magical thinking (surprise: centuries of inequality don't magically go away because of one election, any more than they do because of one legislative act or court decision), but I certainly didn't say that the country as a whole is extremely racist.