[Muse]

House dems pushing to increase minimum wage from $7.25 to $10.

Thoughts? For? Against? Do the numbers make sense? Is it a jump or fair numbers? Effect on unemployment %? Does something else need to accompany the increase?

Some Numbers from
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For work performed prior to July 24, 2007, the federal minimum wage is $5.15 per hour.
For work performed from July 24, 2007 to July 23, 2008, the federal minimum wage is $5.85 per hour.
For work performed from July 24, 2008 to July 23, 2009, the federal minimum wage is $6.55 per hour.
For work performed on or after July 24, 2009, the federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.

[Kisai]

All its going to do is inflate the economy as the market adjusts to the new disposable income of the poor. I am much more for subsidizing housing loans or even rent control.

[MrFlaneur]

Lots of low-wage people but no low-wage jobs. A license for job flight. Not smart.

[Urshulgi]

In my experience, rent wasn't the biggest issue, insanely high electricity bills that come with the poorly insulated housing that the poor and working class normally live in is what can really destroy income in the southern states.

Combine it with gas prices, car insurance, car maintenance, long commutes, and a general lack of public transportation options for a lot of jobs, and you have the real culprit for what takes up the wages of the working poor.

I spend $125 every three months for an unlimited metro pass in Moscow. My rent is $200 higher to live near the center of Moscow than it was to live near the center in Houston, but I still come out way ahead on transportation and commute times. Between fuel and car insurance, I was averaging around $600-700 every three months for transportation in Houston. That's a pretty fucking big deal even at $15 an hour. It takes me about 15 minutes to get from my front door to red square, including the train ride. It took me about 25 minutes to get from my front door to the center of Houston, including time to find free parking.

If they want to solve problems for the poor, mass public transportation needs to be subsidized, not the minimum wage.

[curiousgeorge01]

All it would do is increase inflation (employers pay more, therefore charge clients more, there people who own stores increase rent b/c they're charged more). When inflation increases, you end up paying more anyway so there's no point.

[Zsych]

In other words, look less at money directly, and more at what will really make people's lives easier.

I've often thought that free counseling or self improvement courses would do a lot of good. If you can help improve people's outlook and habits, they are more likely to be able to improve their own lives.

-

As for $10/hr. I suppose it depends on whether that has a significant effect on profit margins and where people end up raising prices because of it. Normally pays should increase in proportion to available money as employers can offer more money to get better employees, and other companies have to raise salaries in competition to avoid losing people.

.... so either people earning minimum wage don't know that they deserve more money, or there isn't more money to be had in their jobs.

... its looking like something that needs more thought.

[Megalomania]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've often thought that free counseling or self improvement courses would do a lot of good. If you can help improve people's outlook and habits, they are more likely to be able to improve their own lives.

I'm kinda surprised you said this; it sounds way too idealistic for you. A key component of counseling and self improvement is the burning desire to change yourself. Most people would rather wallow in their ineptitude.

[Zsych]

I don't think its burning desire, so much as the understanding that their habits are wrong. Their habits aren't who they are, and that changing their habits really is a viable route to improving their lives.

And change doesn't happen over night. I think we all suffer from questionable parenting to one degree or another. Just more positive feelings, and small tangible improvements that show people that they are gaining control over their lives and that things can get better with action... can lead to something positive over time.

... its just that nothing gets results instantaneously. People have to be taught that their dreams of having a million bucks in a day thanks to a lottery ticket are just not worth focusing on - all achievement in life takes a path. You don't get to being able to do tenth grade math at a first grade level, but you do get there. Success takes the amount of understanding and correct action it takes, and not less.

I think its unrealistic expectations, problematic ways of looking at the world, coupled with a bad work ethic that ruin most people - and that's mostly due to how we were raised. They see people doing well and they think it was easy, or that its unfair that they didn't have rich parents when another person did. Its not unfair. Its how life is meant to be, and there is no point in blaming others for your circumstances or hoping for anything, when only your own actions can change your circumstances.

-- which is a viewpoint that can and should be taught - with a more positive tone, of course
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[Dangime]

Two steps back, one step forward. The minimum wage goes up, but what you can get for the wage goes down. Who cares?

[INTelliJent]

Pull water out of the ocean to put it back in the ocean. Eventually the ocean will cover the land!

[Booko]

If a minimum wage job isn't enough to put someone at least at the poverty line, then the taxpayers will need to provide a safety net, so this is not simply a matter of everyone paying a little more for goods and services. We may pay lower prices, but we have higher taxes.

This is just the first hit in a Google search of "Walmart employees food stamps":


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Now, why exactly are the taxpayers subsidizing Walmart profits? Let them and companies like them pay their employees a meaningful minimum wage.

[Eridal]

	Originally Posted by Kisai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	All its going to do is inflate the economy as the market adjusts to the new disposable income of the poor. I am much more for subsidizing housing loans or even rent control.

Then you're for scarce housing and another housing bubble... Rent control is one of the worst things you can do if you want to keep housing at a reasonable costs as it tends to destroy incentive to increase the number of homes in an area and the ones which do exists are either badly maintained or taken off the rental market if they can't make a profit.

As for the raising of minimum wages another stupid idea as all it does is shrink the low skilled labor market and make it even harder for the lowest skilled workers to get jobs as their productivity isn't worth keeping them on the payroll.

[Muse]

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	All it would do is increase inflation.. When inflation increases, you end up paying more anyway so there's no point.

But the last time it was adjusted was in the middle of 2009. Before then it was increased every year. Three years have passed; is saying that the minimum wage of today has less current value than the minimum wage of three years ago a valid argument for adjusting it again to match inflation changes since then?

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Normally pays should increase in proportion to available money as employers can offer more money to get better employees, and other companies have to raise salaries in competition to avoid losing people.

This doesn't apply too well with a deskilled work force (
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) which is a common operational approach in minimum wage jobs. Basically the workers don't gain valuable/marketable skills from operating the waffle press or the fryer for years. (or the classic example, assembly line worker for part C bolts 1, 2, and 3.) Economically it doesn't make sense to pay them much more later on beyond them proving that they show up for work and aren't an idiot (which might be the base line for not firing them anyways). If they need to be replaced, doing so is easy and takes maybe a few hours to get someone else up to speed for their work task.

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	.... so either people earning minimum wage don't know that they deserve more money, or there isn't more money to be had in their jobs.

Usually they don't, that's the problem. The only adjustment to make (usually) is for inflation, and the honest truth is that even educated employers tend not to worry about it until the gov forces them to adjust it. There will always be someone ready and willing to operate the waffle press at $7.25. For years and years to come.

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	... its looking like something that needs more thought.

Agreed.

As for my thoughts: At first glance $10/hr seems like too much of a jump. I could see a smaller increase being fair but want to hear what others think, and maybe see some numbers for/against.

background: I don't belong to either political party, and tend to have a technocratic view economically (though i'm not completely a technocrat). I vote by weighing my personal finances with social/population well-being (which are usually at ends with each other directly). So basically I am mostly undecided
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convince me?

(for the record, any increase in minimum wage would hurt me financially)

[crowbird213]

Low skill US workers aren't globally competitive at 7.25. 10?. Just more inflation, less employment. Basic economics should be taught in law school for these idiot politicians. Oh yah. If they understood economics they would realize just how worthless they are.

[curiousgeorge01]

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But the last time it was adjusted was in the middle of 2009. Before then it was increased every year. Three years have passed; is saying that the minimum wage of today has less current value than the minimum wage of three years ago a valid argument for adjusting it again to match inflation changes since then? [/I]

That justifies a close to 50% increase?? My annual increases have been 3% I'm sorry to say.

[Eridal]

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But the last time it was adjusted was in the middle of 2009. Before then it was increased every year. Three years have passed; is saying that the minimum wage of today has less current value than the minimum wage of three years ago a valid argument for adjusting it again to match inflation changes since then?

Adjusting for inflation would only change the minimum wage to about $7.54...

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This doesn't apply too well with a deskilled work force

I would think that there are jobs in many different areas that require unskilled labor, and that if they had more money and needed more people, they would pay more to get them to not take other jobs... I assume that people don't just pay other people less, to be mean. Rather that they use money in ways that seem to give them an advantage... and there should be competition for unskilled labor across different sectors.

(how much money is in flow and how many more businesses are in a position to grow, is typically dependent on the health of the economy)

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As for my thoughts: At first glance $10/hr seems like too much of a jump. I could see a smaller increase being fair but want to hear what others think, and maybe see some numbers for/against.

That was my first instinct too. Its hard to be sure how a change like this would affect the economy. Maybe also try out different minimums in different areas.

[Muse]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I would think that there are jobs in many different areas that require unskilled labor, and that if they had more money and needed more people, they would pay more to get them to not take other jobs...

Why would they do that? Increased retained earnings makes stock value go up.


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Unskilled means almost anyone can do it, and there is no shortage that I am aware of for people in need of a job. (many articles in newspapers about abundance of job ap's for store openings is a good example)

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I assume that people don't just pay other people less, to be mean. Rather that they use money in ways that seem to give them an advantage... and there should be competition for unskilled labor across different sectors.

Depending on the business, this doesn't always translate to paying workers more for the same work. It could just mean increased operations (as you touched on in your statement about needing more people).

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That was my first instinct too. Its hard to be sure how a change like this would affect the economy. Maybe also try out different minimums in different areas.

States can have different minimums, but the one that is higher (state or gov) wins.

	Originally Posted by Eridal To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Adjusting for inflation would only change the minimum wage to about $7.54...

Attractive. Any takers?

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That justifies a close to 50% increase?? My annual increases have been 3% I'm sorry to say.

I know right? I was like 'say whaaaa?'

[eagleseven]

Decreasing the number of low-skill jobs during a recession? I'm starting to wonder if the Democrats are trying to lose in November.

[Ghostwheel]

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	House dems pushing to increase minimum wage from $7.25 to $10.

Election year posturing, I'd suspect.

Why alienate fat cat donors with a sudden burst of populism?

Why now, all of a sudden, when Romney's on the upsurge?

[Zsych]

Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Why would they do that? Increased retained earnings makes stock value go up. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Unskilled means almost anyone can do it, and there is no shortage that I am aware of for people in need of a job. (many articles in newspapers about abundance of job ap's for store openings is a good example) Depending on the business, this doesn't always translate to paying workers more for the same work. It could just mean increased operations (as you touched on in your statement about needing more people).

Assuming that there was enough spare money and more opportunity, losing people to turn-over would be a pain. Also unskilled labor can be trained to become skilled labor so if a company can afford to train unskilled labor (construction?), they might spend money to train and retain people.... and that would mean Mc. Donalds being understaffed and the bad work experience causing yet more people to find somewhat better opportunities.

... but I still think that that is more a function of the economy doing well. It isn't. Which means that paying people more could cause problems for the economy.

[Vermillion]

	Originally Posted by Kisai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	All its going to do is inflate the economy as the market adjusts to the new disposable income of the poor. I am much more for subsidizing housing loans or even rent control.

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In any event, the US economy is a train wreck waiting to happen. It is declining as the lead economic superpower, the dollar is losing value, and there will continually be less jobs as the global market continues to rise and other jobs also become automated. Raising the minimum wage is like putting a bandaid on a severed artery.

[LaoTzu]

Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

House dems pushing to increase minimum wage from $7.25 to $10. Thoughts? For? Against? Do the numbers make sense? Is it a jump or fair numbers? Effect on unemployment %? Does something else need to accompany the increase? Some Numbers from To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. For work performed prior to July 24, 2007, the federal minimum wage is $5.15 per hour. For work performed from July 24, 2007 to July 23, 2008, the federal minimum wage is $5.85 per hour. For work performed from July 24, 2008 to July 23, 2009, the federal minimum wage is $6.55 per hour. For work performed on or after July 24, 2009, the federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.

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The minimum is now $10.25.
The report is from 2007, and is Gov't produced.
It is focused on selling the public against the idea, when they decided to implement an increase.
In this sense, you will likely find their best arguments for not increasing the minimum wage.

It has been 5 years now; and with the exception of the global economy tanking... you can likely find accurate data now with which to confirm or deny arguments for or against raising or lowering the minimum wage.


I haven't really thought about it for a while, but I liked the increase then, and I like it now.
The main recipients are teens living at home; and they typically spend everything they make on all the bullshit items that keep this world economy afloat. (Gadgets and Games)

I don't know of any negative effects since the increase... but I'm sure some will be drummed up.

[INTelliJent]

Since there are no negative effects, why not just raise the minimum wage to $100 an hour? It'll be 10x as good.

[Vagrant]

I think it's a maneuver to attempt to address the growing rich-poor gap, although I think there are better means of doing so.

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