[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by castalia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Brilliant! Most of the answers here prove that no one really knows what exactly causes it.....just what researchers THINK causes it. It might be this, it could be that, but we still don't know.

Like I said, we do know.

"It's caused by a series of mutations (minimum of 7 critical mutations, average of 35) that ultimately release the cancerous cell from the controls of the cell cycle and apoptosis. This cancerous cell propagates, and starts to mutate even more, eventually beginning very rapid evolution in competition with your body."

Mutations can be caused by any number of things. If you REALLY need me to go into detail, I will.

	Also, people who keep asking for statistics usually lack intuition and common sense in my opinion. Do you know how statisticians work? Do you also know how researchers producing statistics work?

Um yes? Rhetorical question much?

	I am a social scientist with a doctorate and I can tell you that most studies are tweaked to serve the hypothesis of the researcher as well as the funding body. The truth is always way more complex.

Social scientist. Not a doctor or biological scientist, or even a chemist.

Having my B.S. in Biology gives me more credentials than your doctorate about this subject.

	Are you a hard scientist with a Nobel prize or something?

Because you can only explain things with a Nobel prize.

	Linus Pauling has a Nobel Prize and he claimed that most cancer treatments are shams.

No, he criticized people who claimed Vitamin C helped with cancer.

	It's so entertaining sitting in the middle of the healthcare wars watching both sides lob disparaging comments about things they know nothing about and watching the fads come and go on each side of things. [/sarcasm]

Welcome to US government?

[thod]

	Mutations can be caused by any number of things. If you REALLY need me to go into detail, I will.

Radiation knocking out bits of DNA is obvious. Chemical exposure is certain in areas like the lungs and colon. However a cancer needs to mutate in such a way that it goes into mad reproduction mode. To do this it not only needs to evade the bodies immune system but it also needs to provoke the body to give it a blood supply. How likely are all these factors?

What strike me as odd is the way different organs react. Some almost never become cancerous despite having exactly the same DNA.

[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Radiation knocking out bits of DNA is obvious. Chemical exposure is certain in areas like the lungs and colon.

There's far more ways of triggering genetic mutations in your body, or having carcinogenic effects. I'll make a quick list:

• Ionizing radiation
• Hazardous chemicals (the kind that come with MSDS)
• Physical trauma (yes, physical trauma can induce mutations)
• Chance error in cellular reproduction
• UV light exposure.
• Desiccation
• Alcohol
• Wood smoke, cigarette smoke, smoke in general isn't healthy.
• Heavy metals, and certain metals.
• Viruses, bacteria, prions
• 
  To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
  .
• Certain hormones and steroid derivatives (including estrogen and testosterone)
• 
  To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
  
  To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
  

You can find a
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
too.


To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

	However a cancer needs to mutate in such a way that it goes into mad reproduction mode. To do this it not only needs to evade the bodies immune system but it also needs to provoke the body to give it a blood supply. How likely are all these factors?

Depends on the mutations that occur. Evading the immune system is a matter of simply putting out the same glycoproteins and signaling molecules that normal cells put out. If that isn't interfered with, a cancerous cell has a good chance of evading the immune system.

Provoking the body to give a blood supply only starts to occur once a tumor has significant enough mass to require a blood vessel (osmosis and diffusion no longer being sufficient). This is where the cancer has basically become another organism, evolving inside of you. It has to evolve to divert blood flow.

As for mad reproduction -- turning oncogenes on, and tumor suppressor genes off is the key to that. Oncogenes increase speed of cellular reproduction, and tumor suppressor genes are the "checkpoints" of the cell cycle that prevent excessive growth.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
is my favorite protein.

	What strike me as odd is the way different organs react. Some almost never become cancerous despite having exactly the same DNA.

This is an issue of the epigenome affecting DNA. All the cells in your body have pretty much the same DNA (excepting gametes). The epigenome and parts of genome determine which genes get turned on or off.


To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(IE neurons, heart muscle tissue, skeletal muscle tissue) never become cancerous. Cancer requires cellular reproduction and growth. Cells that reproduce frequently (IE skin, liver, bone marrow) are significantly more vulnerable to cancer. This is why roaches would not suffer cancer from radiation exposure -- their cells don't reproduce until they molt to grow in size. Only when they start molting do they become vulnerable to cancer.

Additionally, certain parts of your body are exposed to different mutagens. Your liver is exposed to pretty much all chemical mutagens (as it is the detox center of the body). Your skin is exposed to UV light the most. Your lungs are exposed to mutagens in the air. Your brain is relatively insulated, thanks to the blood-brain barrier, and other protections.

[Polymath20]

In fact, we know not only what genetic mutations occur on a cellular level, but also other physiological aspects of tumor growth, and how to fight it.



To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[plotthickens]

Cancer survival rate without modern medicine: shitty
Cancer survival rate with modern medicine: better

"Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by CRIM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There are usually four stages and the fourth stage is the greatest threat. Each stage has different levels which statistically speaking again shrinks your chances of survival. That doesn't mean that in the fourth stage you're screwed. The cancer could shrink but statistically speaking most people don't survive the fourth stage often.

Generally speaking, the older you are the slower cancer grows, so a 20-something with 4th stage lung cancer I wouldn't give great odds on survival, but my uncle in his 90s has been 4th stage for years now and he's still around.

There are some therapies that lie outside conventional medicine that have been shown to be effective in shrinking and even eliminating cancers, but I'm not such an idiot that I would ever suggest a client of mine NOT see oncologists because of that, not even if they were only stage 1. *facepalm*

---------- Post added 05-28-2012 at 12:31 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Social scientist. Not a doctor or biological scientist, or even a chemist.

I am a chemist. You don't really need statistics for much of chemistry. The closer you are to biology, the more it applies. An ACS-approved undergrad degree will require diff eq but not statistics (unless they've changed that -- they may have done).

	Having my B.S. in Biology gives me more credentials than your doctorate about this subject.

It may well give you more credentials than mine in Chemistry.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


---------- Post added 05-28-2012 at 12:40 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In fact, we know not only what genetic mutations occur on a cellular level, but also other physiological aspects of tumor growth, and how to fight it.

This reminds me of one of the more bizarre experiences I had with a client (not a cancer patient), who was unable to keep down Indian food and also most chicken broth that she didn't make herself from chicken. We finally pegged it to the turmeric used in both. I suggested she consult someone about an allergy treatment from Australia, and it turned out she was reactive to curcumin itself.

It's a good thing she wasn't a cancer patient and tried out the method William Li suggests, because all that would've done was make her even sicker. Not to mention -- uh better hire someone to mop up after her each time she takes those supplements.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[mormeguil]

While I agree we have to be more sceptical then we are righ now about all the cancer research. I agree that there is probably way too many treatment with low success being used. I agree we are incredibly scared of cancer.

On the other hand, survival rate of cancer have most definetly been going up. We understand more and more about each different from of cancer. Perfectly curing every type of cancer is almost a foolish dream. It's still not a reason not to try.

[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by mormeguil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	While I agree we have to be more sceptical then we are righ now about all the cancer research. I agree that there is probably way too many treatment with low success being used. I agree we are incredibly scared of cancer.

The trick is to not jump too quickly onto the "new breakthrough" bandwagon. Incidents with things like thalidomide are the result of people being too eager to jump on new breakthroughs without thorough testing.

	On the other hand, survival rate of cancer have most definetly been going up. We understand more and more about each different from of cancer. Perfectly curing every type of cancer is almost a foolish dream. It's still not a reason not to try.

Agreed.

[CRIM]

Originally Posted by Booko To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Generally speaking, the older you are the slower cancer grows, so a 20-something with 4th stage lung cancer I wouldn't give great odds on survival, but my uncle in his 90s has been 4th stage for years now and he's still around. There are some therapies that lie outside conventional medicine that have been shown to be effective in shrinking and even eliminating cancers, but I'm not such an idiot that I would ever suggest a client of mine NOT see oncologists because of that, not even if they were only stage 1. *facepalm* ---------- Post added 05-28-2012 at 12:31 PM ----------

Yeah, that's true too. I mean my great grandfather who is still alive and about 90 years old has prostate cancer. It's slow moving too. The doctors see no point in treating it either and given his age, why bother? I always forget to mention something I swear.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[plotthickens]

[HIDE="Cancer survival rates by decade"]


To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.





To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.





[/HIDE]

ETA: Citations


To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.