[ischuldt]

this is kind of an off shoot of another thread about a girl asking if listening to her relationship problems was a burden.

One of the comments was about how asking an intj for relationship advice was never a good idea because we're supposedly so naturally bad at them.

I disagree though. I think it's kind of like the thinking that great players don't make good coaches, or those who can't do teach, or when one of your senses is lost the other ones find ways of making up for it.

I think that because intj's aren't naturals when it comes to forming relationships with the majority of people in the world we have to make more of an effort to study and understand relationships and what makes some work and some not. As a result we actually have insight into a great many aspects of relationships that many other types don't.

If you can throw a 100 mph fastball you don't really need to know the exact spot to throw it in order to get a batter out. As a result when you get to the big leagues and batters can suddenly hit your pitch it's almost impossible for you to adjust on your own. You need someone who can pick up on the little things you're doing wrong that can make you a better pitcher. Someone who's had no choice but to develop better form, technique, accuracy in order be successful because they weren't endowed with the same gifts.

Same thing with relationships when it's been incredibly easy for you to form relationships your whole life with just about anyone you don't know how to adjust when your natural talents fail you. Most times it's someone like an intj who can pick up on some small nuance about what you're doing that is causing your problem that you might have never though of because you've never needed it.

[jenuwin]

I've been listening to relationship problems this whole week. People seem to like to confide in me regarding their personal issues. I'm not a fond of listening to them, but I do because they're good friends of mine.

I haven't been in a real relationship, but I think that I do give pretty good advice. My girl friends tend to get super irrational and illogical when they're upset, so I have to be rational and logical for them. I've also analyzed other people's relationships my whole life, so I can give my friends pretty insightful feedback.. even though I may not have experienced any of their problems personally.

[deconspire]

Most of the people in this forum give bad relationship advice, so I think it's less an indictment on INTJs than people on INTJf who give relationship advice.

I've seen some INTJs post great comments on R&D topics. There just aren't enough people-who-know-what-they're-talking-about making posts in there.

[MacheteGeek]

I would say we can pick out all the factors and let someone else take what they need.

[changos]

Ive seen very good avice here, surprisingly most received very little attention, some didn't even get quoted. In some cases the OP came back to tell the afterstory, ha, interesting, there you know who knows and who doesn't.










Having (or beeing at present time involved on) a relationship doesn't mean good mental health, it doesn't even mean love, just like eating doesn't mean nutrition. There are lots of people alone and married giving good and bad advice, hey! you can read some threads here where people say something positive and many attack, and others where intjs have said pretty selfish sick stuff (specially women regarding money) and there were few attacks, in fact some agreed, not to mention how difficult it became to a guy to talk about his mess up with a new child... while other thread about abort and lying to the partner received very few complains....

I believe regarding my experience that it is ONE THING to ask intjs for relationship advice, and other very different to ask for that HERE. Very diff things. Take per example, we research, it is very common that WHEN WE ASK we do so with lots of details, while here... most of the questions are "she doesn't call me, what do I do?" that's not very intj...

Another thing, take in count the age of some posters (nothing bad with that) it is just that when we are still learning, most of us will be lost no matter what type we are and so our opinions and advice.

Anyway there is one guy here (if you can remember him) who is very young and confessed not having a love relationship or sexual experience, but his comments were almost every time well directed, respectful and accurate.... there was a thread were many attacked him trying to discredit because "his lack of experience", I laughed some of us agreed that his words made sense, he made lots of efforts with his own homework. Good for him!.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Difficult to comment here, as it's been said, many give bad advice here, don't take it as "love relationships" I discussed this matter with some other members by PM regarding lots, LOTS of negativity on the forum (other branches).

There is a travel forum I visit and now people seem to be more bussy trowing rocks at each other, it reminded me a lot of threads I've seen here. I've been told more than once that this became more evident since the "financial crisis" specially over the US.

[followthehippos]

Yeah. I think a lot of people miss that some individuals are giving good advice.

[Polymath20]

Some threads make me think "Oh look, the blind leading the blind." and yes a lot of golden tidbits of advice get overlooked.

[LifesEcstasy]

Not sure I really agree. I think whether or not you take advice from anyone really should come down to whether or not they are getting better results than you on that subject. I also don't agree that INTJs are naturally bad at relationships. They are incredibly selective, but not poor in relationships if they really want a relationship with you. The thing is, most of the time, they don't because they are selective. A lot of the relationship hang-ups I read on here are really just hang-ups common to a lot of people, not just INTJs.

If someone who was presently divorced and had a string of poor relationships tried to give me marriage advice. I'd politely let them have the floor then judiciously forget everything they just told me. Presumably if I took their advice I'd get their results. But if an introverted friend of mine who only had one relationship her whole life, yet it was a great one gave me advice I'd take it.

Maybe what you are really reaching for is just acceptance of yourself and unique talents. You don't need to crusade that INTJs are great at relationship advice. If you read these forums, clearly not all of them are, but maybe you are and maybe your acknowledgement of that is all that's really necessary.

As I said proof is in the pudding. Before you take advice from anyone look at the results they have on that subject first.

[Zephyranthes]

A lot of people think relationships are irrational and devoid of any logic, reasoning or predictable path. I find a lot of advice is overlooked because of that.

Mostly people don't want to hear the bad stuff too, and just want others to affirm what they already think and what they want to do. Ego and feelings push a lot of people to refuse to give up on the idea of that person, even if their intuition is telling them it's all going downhill.

Having a varied response and a handful of perspectives on your issue is never a bad thing imo, maybe someone will suggest something you didn't see cause you got your head in the clouds.

[changos]

Don't judge the work of one by the work (results) of two.

A relationship depends on you(1), the other one (2) and the match... how you work together (3). That would be to me: 3 diff things. We can't judge people only by results, there are many winners comming from bad relationships. Sometimes just like machines we can take the best parts (no longer working) to build something new, the same with people.

Old souls (very similar to intjs with experience) get a lot of "ok now I get it". So what was a problem (and accusation) becomes understanding and a correction "you were right", something that happens very often in our world. It takes years to gather conversation with ex GF telling us that we were not the problem regarding situation A, B, C... and now they get it.

---------- Post added 05-16-2012 at 01:56 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Zephyranthes To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A lot of people think relationships are irrational and devoid of any logic, reasoning or predictable path. I find a lot of advice is overlooked because of that

Very true. I made an experiment here in this forum, I asked "how you know when you are in love" and what was love... above 90% of the many answers were oriented to chaos: when I can no longer control or trust myself, etc... and the like. The description of what they relate to being in love is pure chaos, lack of self control, irrational decisions and risking their own mental health. The thread is still around.

[ENTP gal]

I only discovered this forum recently but have already received great advice for dealing with my INTJ. It is not necessary to agree with everything that is being said and strangers can't naturally know all the nuances of our relationship. However, when you read multiple posts written by different INTJs about what works for them and what doesn't, you start seeing some patterns. A logical and analytical person like me can then draw my own conclusions and decide what approach to try. Just these past days I took some of the advice to get my guy to come back from his dark place and it seems to be working. Sometimes it is just a few words or a slight change that can make a big difference. He also seems to appreciate my efforts to understand him.

[koakuma]

Is this a sensitive subject?

Would good relationship advice be to share real-life-experiences that members may analyse/observe/learn from themselves? Without saying to much "do this, don't do that"?

Does the bad advice come from older or younger people? From more or less experienced people?

Since I'm already in a super-great relationship since years, I tend to not bother about threads concerning relationship-problems. So, thinking about that, maybe people who seek to be in a relationship are more interested in these types of threads, compared to people who are already in good relationships? If so, this could mean that people who are in good relationships that "should" give advice, don't, and vice versa.

[what yeah okay]

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Some threads make me think "Oh look, the blind leading the blind." and yes a lot of golden tidbits of advice get overlooked.

Most of the time, this subforum is the mute leading the deaf.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by LifesEcstasy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But if an introverted friend of mine who only had one relationship her whole life, yet it was a great one gave me advice I'd take it.

Sure, this would work if you're a carbon copy of your friend and your partner, a carbon copy of the other partner.

[LifesEcstasy]

	Originally Posted by changos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We can't judge people only by results..

Really why not? Would you lay on the operating table of a Dr known to lose patients? Seek the advice financial advice of a bankrupt accountant or take the parenting advice of a teacher who's classroom was out of control? If we don't look at someone's results then how do we know if what they profess works or not. Good people do have bad experiences all the time, I'm not saying they are not good people, but I am saying they probably have not mastered the subjects of their bad experiences.

While I agree relationships are a co-creation of two people. Patterns develop. If one of those two people is repeatedly having bad relationships it does point to something possibly being amiss with that half of the equation. If I have the choice of listening to someone with a history of poor relationships and someone with a history of good ones I know which advice I will lend more credence to, you are of course welcome to take the advice of anyone you see like.

[Fishism]

Wisdom is a combination of observational skills and experience. The INTJs ability to detach, observe and trend gives them solid observational and analytical skills. However, introversion and a willingness to slink to the sidelines and not partake kills the experience portion. No theory is worth having without testing. Following the threads in the R&D section of this forum shows the experienced INTJ to be a great source for objective and accurate relationship generalizations to use as a foundation for a belief system. However, love and sex are true subjective art forms, so at best, we're all throwing darts at tiny targets.

[LadySpock]

INTJs giving relationship advice is like a parapalegic teaching someone how to pole vault.

[Cooper]

	Originally Posted by LadySpock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	INTJs giving relationship advice is like a parapalegic teaching someone how to pole vault.

Bullshit.

One does not need the ability to do something to teach or advise. Its a plus, but not a requirement.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by LadySpock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	INTJs giving relationship advice is like a parapalegic teaching someone how to pole vault.

And parents who let others take care of their kids are horrible.

Thoughtless quips are thoughtless.

[LadySpock]

I put a lot of thought into my thoughtless quip.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by LadySpock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I put a lot of thought into my thoughtless quip.

Then you have my sympathies.

[Strange Moon]

	Originally Posted by LifesEcstasy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I also don't agree that INTJs are naturally bad at relationships. They are incredibly selective, but not poor in relationships if they really want a relationship with you. The thing is, most of the time, they don't because they are selective.

I agree completely. Quite often INTJs are descibed on INTJf as anti-social and incapable of connecting to other people. And many posters here seem to fit this desciption. But that's hardly typical for INTJs in general.

I'm in a happy relationship for 28 years now, I have long lasting friendships and I've always been quite popular in school and at my workplaces. It's just that I am very slow to make meaningful and deep connections to others because I find 99% of people so uninteresting.
Lately I have more fun connecting with people because I enjoy analyzing their behaviour though. Therefore the number of my acquaintances is slowly growing.

BTW David Keirsey also says that INTJs are very capable of having great social relationships because they constantly try to improve the quality of their relationships to people they care about.

[LadySpock]

In all seriousness - I think that emotionally mature INTJs who are honestly making an effort to understand and become adept at Emotional Intelligence (or who are already there) and who are working on (or have worked on) honing their skills as far as interacting with "feelers" are great at giving relationship advice. They can provide an analytical assessment and detailed instructions that any struggling INTJ can understand and follow.

[changos]

	Originally Posted by LifesEcstasy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Really why not?

Remember my first line, it is not only "We can't judge people only by results..", I opened my post with Don't judge the work of one by the work (results) of two.

[hide="the long story"]
Really easy. Nobody healthy controls (or is responsible) of more than 50% of the things happening inside the relationship.

Mary can be blamed for being controlling, demanding, etc. Thus the relationship suffers and then it ends. We could judge Mary because of that, the relationship "failed" and ended, worst if we pay attention to her ex "she asks too much!!". Two years later (we might not be there to see this) the EX comes back begging for a second chance, now he knows Mary was right, she was never controlling, it was him... a chaos, now he gets it. Now he speaks wonders of Mary because he learned a lot from her.

• Some people stay together (and that's a success)
• Some people end up apart (and that's also a success, because the relationship served a purpose, they tried and had nothing in common, no future... a relationship is not mandatory to end up in marriage or together at 90 years old).
• Some people stay together (and that's a fail, due to bad mental health)
• Some people end up apart (and that's is mostly a fail to the eyes of everyone...)

Take the case of a the best parent and te best CEO.



#1 CEO. He is assigned to rescue a company in troubles. It is his job but even as he is hired for that, the result won't depend on him 100%. He is aware of the problems so he knows of the danger, responsibility and stress. He might win or loose...


#2 Parent. He has to "help" some spoiled kid (not his own), he will try (it is not his obbligation). Later the kid would complain because the parent is "bad" while this is only a wrong perception, if both stay together enough time, the kid will say "thanks" later because NOW HE GETS IT. Or, the parent ends up rejecting the kid and the task.... we could judge the parent because he decided to runaway... nope, it was not his obbligation in the first place.






A lof of people lie, cheat, and have bad habits, most of them will lie about this pretending to be good. Not everybody is fertil ground. Relationships are a mutual discovery and the purpose of a relationship is not marriage or kids, is to find out if there is a future togeter or not.







Let's take a look at testimonies, many people LIVE bad relationships for years because they saw fights at home but their parents never went apart, so they believe that a strong relationship is the one that survives among fights... while in fact not every fight can be justified. This kind of people will hug you and when you try to leave because of the problems they will pursue you.




Not everybody is healthy, we find out along the way (about us and about the love partners).










You can be good, caring, whatever, but a relationships works on mutual collaboration, not on one fixing the other (still you wil find this pretty often in the forum and in the real world). That's why many go and try to get "the best person" because they don't want to be responsible, they want to make the other responsible and fix things.




Sorry for the long text
[/hide]

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by Fishism To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Following the threads in the R&D section of this forum shows the experienced INTJ to be a great source for objective and accurate relationship generalizations to use as a foundation for a belief system. However, love and sex are true subjective art forms, so at best, we're all throwing darts at tiny targets.

This primarily sums it up.

Originally Posted by LadySpock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

In all seriousness - I think that emotionally mature INTJs who are honestly making an effort to understand and become adept at Emotional Intelligence (or who are already there) and who are working on (or have worked on) honing their skills as far as interacting with "feelers" are great at giving relationship advice. They can provide an analytical assessment and detailed instructions that any struggling INTJ can understand and follow.

Refer to quote above from Fishism. While I agree with much of what you're saying, when it comes to relationships, more focus has to be put towards their partners in an individualised fashion and less on models created internally (relationship MUST look/progress like this). Also, learn to let loose with partners where the INTJ doesn't always need to be in control of the situation.