[JonahMoates]

Originally Posted by Kratos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A uhhh friend of mine is a 30 year old virgin. My friend, let's call him Billy, has held out for someone whom he feels deeply connected with. It hasn't happened yet and he's concerned. He's concerned that it will never happen; Billy's concerned that his super shyness and awkwardness partially stems from not experiencing sex. Seriously though, I just read the thread involving "Love shy" guys, and it scares me. I know this forum is chock full of similar people in similar situations. What's a love shy guy to do?

I'm still a virgin because I try to hold some sort of fidelity to the girl I haven't met yet. Unfortunately, this has plagued me with fears of sexual impotence as well. I solve this with serial make-out tours to help qualify a sense of verility. I'm aware this kind of obscures my original intent for abstinence, but nonetheless its how I balance it out.

What I can say to billy is what others have said. If billy has sex now just because yhe feels 30 is to old to be a virgin or that he needs to prove to himself that he can cull a mate, he will completely give up on a principle that has helped shape his character this far. Sex is easy easy easy to get. In fact, it's one of America's major exports. Billy wants it to mean something, and thats what seperates him from the animals.

[jisnowhere]

oddly, there is some indication that those who wait may tend to have it better in the long run:

from:
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"Couples who avoid sex before marriage end up having happier, more stable relationships and a better time in bed, according to psychologists. An American study backs the straitlaced view that sex should wait until one's wedding night.

Researchers questioned more than 2,000 married individuals about their relationships, and asked them when they started having sex.

Analysis of the results suggested there were rewards for not getting physical too fast. Compared with those having sex early, couples who waited until they were married rated the stability of their relationships 22 per cent higher. They also claimed 20 per cent increased levels of relationship satisfaction, 12 per cent better communication and 15 per cent improved "sexual quality". The findings appear in the Journal of Family Psychology.

Professor Dean Busby, from Brigham Young University's School of Family Life in Utah, said: "There's more to a relationship than sex, but we did find that those who waited longer were happier with the sexual aspect of their relationship. I think it's because they've learned to talk and have the skills to work with issues that come up."

For couples who became sexually involved later in a relationship but before marriage, the supposed benefits were about half as strong."

i suppose it just depends on what the OP wants in the long-run...

[Samoan Corleone]

Originally Posted by jisnowhere To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

oddly, there is some indication that those who wait may tend to have it better in the long run: from: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "Couples who avoid sex before marriage end up having happier, more stable relationships and a better time in bed, according to psychologists. An American study backs the straitlaced view that sex should wait until one's wedding night. Researchers questioned more than 2,000 married individuals about their relationships, and asked them when they started having sex. Analysis of the results suggested there were rewards for not getting physical too fast. Compared with those having sex early, couples who waited until they were married rated the stability of their relationships 22 per cent higher. They also claimed 20 per cent increased levels of relationship satisfaction, 12 per cent better communication and 15 per cent improved "sexual quality". The findings appear in the Journal of Family Psychology. Professor Dean Busby, from Brigham Young University's School of Family Life in Utah, said: "There's more to a relationship than sex, but we did find that those who waited longer were happier with the sexual aspect of their relationship. I think it's because they've learned to talk and have the skills to work with issues that come up." For couples who became sexually involved later in a relationship but before marriage, the supposed benefits were about half as strong."

Also, they've got no one else to compare their partner to. That, I admit, is something I'm insecure about, that whoever I'm with will always have her "first" in the back of her mind each time we're intimate; if not her first, then someone whose rod had more girth than mine, or who could last longer. I also don't want anyone else in my mind when we do it; just her.

Of course, having no experience in that regard, maybe I'm wrong and that doesn't happen. Well, I'm not willing to take the risk anyway.

[jisnowhere]

Originally Posted by Samoan Corleone To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Also, they've got no one else to compare their partner to. That, I admit, is something I'm insecure about, that whoever I'm with will always have her "first" in the back of her mind each time we're intimate; if not her first, then someone whose rod had more girth than mine, or who could last longer. I also don't want anyone else in my mind when we do it; just her. Of course, having no experience in that regard, maybe I'm wrong and that doesn't happen. Well, I'm not willing to take the risk anyway.

yea dude...my last gf n potential fiance (i broke it off) was a 26 yr old virgin.... MY chain (small chain, to be clear)of previous lovers was a difficulty that she could hardly deal with. it brought so much insecurity to her, and she was plagued daily with doubt about whether she could fit the bill, measure up, or whatever. she was by far the most beautiful and precious girl i had dated. she was more beautiful, inside and out, but i could not convince her of this fact. all she could think was the others were somehow better than she. i admit, she could have probably worked through that, and discovered the genuineness in my love for her, but im not sure she could have ever gotten past it.

reminds me (if only remotely) of Tolstoy's wife, who having learned of his list of lovers, was never able to forgive him:

"On the eve of their marriage, Tolstoy gave Sophia his diaries detailing his sexual relations with female serfs. In Anna Karenina, 34 year old Constantine Levin, a semi-autobiographical character behaves similarly, asking his 19 year old fiancée Kitty to read his diaries and learn of his past transgressions."

"...she describes Sophia as having a deep fear that Tolstoy would somehow re-enter a relationship with the woman."

i personally intend to wait, from here on out...

[Sk8ordude]

Wouldn't there be a correlation between those who wait until marraige, the religious who are opposed to divorse and infidelity, and those with less experiance or points of reference of what good sex is?

[jisnowhere]

	Originally Posted by Sk8ordude To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Wouldn't there be a correlation between those who wait until marraige, the religious who are opposed to divorse and infidelity, and those with less experiance or points of reference of what good sex is?

that's a good question, imo. if i understand you correctly, i think you are delving into a discusion of what the term "good" means, to some degree.

hmm, from my limited reading in the area, i think they are polling people and asking about their "satisfaction levels" with sex (as the respondents are currently experiencing it), and those who "waited" (not suggesting they were virgins, per se, but that they "waited" in regards to their marriage partner) seem to consistently report higher "satisfaction" rates. i think it suggests that there's something about commitment that precedes the richest benefit of consummation.

[Beezlebub]

	Originally Posted by RandomLurker To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yup. Only your worldview is valid.

No, but yours is definitely wrong.

[Still Standing]

	Originally Posted by jisnowhere To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	oddly, there is some indication that those who wait may tend to have it better in the long run: from: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Professor Dean Busby, from Brigham Young University's School of Family Life in Utah, said:

Yeah, I can understand that a Mormon university research would arrive at that conclusion.

	Originally Posted by Sk8ordude To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Wouldn't there be a correlation between those who wait until marriage, the religious who are opposed to divorce and infidelity, and those with less experience or points of reference of what good sex is?

Totally. Aren't poor people fairly happy until they realize how the rich folk live?

[ummon]

	Originally Posted by RandomLurker To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If Billy gives up now and just settles for anyone then he really did waste the last 30 years.

Precisely. And it's important to note that 30 years old isn't really that old for a guy. He's probably entering the peak of his value in terms of attractiveness.

[IotaNull]

	Originally Posted by ummon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Precisely. And it's important to note that 30 years old isn't really that old for a guy. He's probably entering the peak of his value in terms of attractiveness.

Not if he's a virgin, which 99.99...% of women will consider a dealbreaker at that age.

[RandomLurker]

	Originally Posted by Beezlebub To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No, but yours is definitely wrong.

That's exactly what someone who is wrong would say.

[Midhiel]

Originally Posted by AnnaMolly To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Wow, I find most of these suggestions horrific. Have you people never heard about personal values or integrity? Also, I hate this "omg you must be good the first time when it's important" BS pressure that's put on men. Would you give the same advice to a female 30 year old virgin? Tell Billy that there are women out there like him, who'd very much appreciate his idealism, values and virginity. He should not give up on what's important to him. But he might become more adamant in looking for it, i.e. maybe trying to go out more, meet more people, even though that's quite the nasty idea for an introvert (I know what I'm talking about here To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ). I'm 23 and female, but otherwise in the same position as Billy. And only attracted to guys like Billy, by the way.

Agree with everything in this post, and everything else you've said, AnnaMolly.

	Originally Posted by Iota Null To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Not if he's a virgin, which 99.99...% of women will consider a dealbreaker at that age.

Yeah...that's a gross miscalculation. I'm sure that the percentage of women who would find that unattractive is higher in the general population than on these forums, but 99.99%? Not even close. Off the top of my head I can think of numerous ladies in my acquaintance who would consider that a bonus, not a dealbreaker, and even more who wouldn't be concerned with it.

[Samoan Corleone]

	Originally Posted by Iota Null To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Not if he's a virgin, which 99.99...% of women will consider a dealbreaker at that age.

Where's that figure from?

[mrhat]

	Originally Posted by AnnaMolly To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So you're fine to be in a relationship or have sex with a person who doesn't think for themselves? I can hardly believe that someone would actually consider that a better option than continuing to look for someone who does think for themselves.

It boosts experience and confidence. It doesn't mean you have to look for a soulmate from the get go, he will likely end up disappointed. Of course there are a few great people out there who will accept him for who he is, but experience is damn important; otherwise he'll be fishing without knowing what to look for. Dating is not the same as having a relationship. Date, gain experience, and then look for what you want. Dating is a game and ignoring the rules will leave things up to chance.

He'll end up going head over heels from the first girl that he meets and will probably end up in failure because so many women (and men) don't have their shit together. And, if he ever meets the one, he'll probably fuck it up because he doesn't know what to do. Been there, done that, and so have many others.

	Originally Posted by AnnaMolly To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why? Because you say so?

Oh wow, I could throw this argument right back at you. I just think that for most people, not having any sexual or dating experience by the age of 30 will really hamper their development, when they could actually be thriving instead. Easier said than done, but nonetheless. The guy can do whatever the hell he wants and the OP can give him whatever the hell advice he wants, I'm just trying to throw out an alternative way of thinking about it; maybe that will strike gold, maybe it won't.

[eagleseven]

Originally Posted by AnnaMolly To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Tell Billy that there are women out there like him, who'd very much appreciate his idealism, values and virginity. He should not give up on what's important to him. But he might become more adamant in looking for it, i.e. maybe trying to go out more, meet more people, even though that's quite the nasty idea for an introvert (I know what I'm talking about here To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ). I'm 23 and female, but otherwise in the same position as Billy. And only attracted to guys like Billy, by the way.

This explains both why you are in the same position as Billy, and why Billy is still a virgin.

Billy hasn't had a significant relationship in 30 years because he has great difficulty in socializing with the opposite sex, as he admits in the OP. This means that you wouldn't notice billy at a party, book club, or in the office. Instead, you'll notice all the socially confident men who have had relationships/sex, and come here to complain how men are assholes.

What the men here understand is that success in relationships, and even just sex, changes the male mind in a way that is powerfully attractive at a visceral level. In my personal life, having sex with someone I liked, respected, and trusted had a dramatic impact...even women who wouldn't give me the time of day several years back, and are still "waiting for marriage", now aggressively flirt/make suggestions that would've turned me red years ago.


Only time two virgins "waiting" for eachother works out, is when both are active members of a religious community that intentionally gets them together. Catholic singles nights, or Jewish matchmakers come to mind.

[Beezlebub]

	Originally Posted by RandomLurker To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's exactly what someone who is wrong would say.

You're using your ideals as an excuse for for social ineptitude. You haven't had sex so your you opinion is based completely on an abstract misconception of what sex is. Have it, try it out. Then come back to me and spout an opinion.

Originally Posted by eagleseven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This explains both why you are in the same position as Billy, and why Billy is still a virgin. Billy hasn't had a significant relationship in 30 years because he has great difficulty in socializing with the opposite sex, as he admits in the OP. This means that you wouldn't notice billy at a party, book club, or in the office. Instead, you'll notice all the socially confident men who have had relationships/sex, and come here to complain how men are assholes. What the men here understand is that success in relationships, and even just sex, changes the male mind in a way that is powerfully attractive at a visceral level. In my personal life, having sex with someone I liked, respected, and trusted had a dramatic impact...even women who wouldn't give me the time of day several years back, and are still "waiting for marriage", now aggressively flirt/make suggestions that would've turned me red years ago. Only time two virgins "waiting" for eachother works out, is when both are active members of a religious community that intentionally gets them together. Catholic singles nights, or Jewish matchmakers come to mind.

^ So much truth in one post.

[Zephyranthes]

	Originally Posted by Samoan Corleone To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Where's that figure from?

The book of "every guy's better than you and women only like guys who are in the 99th percentile of physical traits, so don't bother trying to date anyways", written by Iota Null.

[Samoan Corleone]

Originally Posted by eagleseven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This explains both why you are in the same position as Billy, and why Billy is still a virgin. Billy hasn't had a significant relationship in 30 years because he has great difficulty in socializing with the opposite sex, as he admits in the OP. This means that you wouldn't notice billy at a party, book club, or in the office. Instead, you'll notice all the socially confident men who have had relationships/sex, and come here to complain how men are assholes. What the men here understand is that success in relationships, and even just sex, changes the male mind in a way that is powerfully attractive at a visceral level.

I may not know about sex, but I agree that relationship experience can increase confidence and social skills. I can't really be bitter at anyone in my past, because I learned from each of them.

	Originally Posted by eagleseven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In my personal life, having sex with someone I liked, respected, and trusted had a dramatic impact...even women who wouldn't give me the time of day several years back, and are still "waiting for marriage", now aggressively flirt/make suggestions that would've turned me red years ago.

Did you tell them to get lost? I've had two or three (big number, I know) girls who used to be too cool back in school suddenly initiate contact, which really annoys me. Fickleness is stupid.

	Originally Posted by eagleseven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Only time two virgins "waiting" for eachother works out, is when both are active members of a religious community that intentionally gets them together. Catholic singles nights, or Jewish matchmakers come to mind.

Why didn't I think of that? Catholic singles night, here I come!

---------- Post added 05-11-2012 at 02:59 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Zephyranthes To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The book of "every guy's better than you and women only like guys who are in the 99th percentile of physical traits, so don't bother trying to date anyways", written by Iota Null.

Cool, I'll have to get that out from the library sometime in the near future. Sounds inspiring and uplifting!

[AnnaMolly]

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There is middle ground between waiting for "the one" and sleeping around. He could find an understanding "friend with benefits" who is perhaps in a similar boat, and stick with that person and learn stuff with her until either of them meet someone they want to be in a relationship with.

Agreed that a FWB situation would already be much more close to acceptable with his mindset than visiting a hooker or taking some girl home from the club.
Still, the question remains as to why he would want to "learn stuff" with a FWB. Maybe he might enjoy it, maybe not, I don't know the OP. I'm just putting it to you that there are people out there who would not. If I see sex as inseperately connected to romantic feelings and deep connection, then I would not enjoy "practicing" with someone I have no such feelings for or connection with.

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No. If he meets a woman he really likes, there's a better chance that things will work out if both of them have acquired some skill and self-knowledge in the sexual department. A student-teacher relationship in the bedroom would suggest a potentially unequal relationship and power issues in other departments as well.

Isn't sex with a new partner always a bit of teaching and learning? And why is it assumed that virgins are entirely clueless both of what to do and what to want? Why can't he teach her as well, tell and show her what he likes?
Maybe I'm seeing it through rose-tinted glasses. I know that great sexual differencies can be a serious threat for relationships. But inexperience (on one or both sides) is a difference that is very simply overcome, simply by having lots of sex. Thus I can't see how it could be come a problem, unless of course the experienced partner is impatient. Then they weren't a good match to begin with.

(And yes, of course he might have sexual preferences that he does not know of yet, and that might become problematic if his partner doesn't like them. That's quite speculative though and not particularly likely -- if he's already spent a good amount of time exploring his own sexuality and fantasies. Even so, worst case that leads to a break-up. Still better than "experiencing" with someone he doesn't care about just for the sake of it, imho.)

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	On a personal note, I'm 43 and have yet to find someone who truly gets me and who I'd want to spent most of my free time with. But at least the handful of FWB relationships I've had in my 20s and 30s have allowed me to figure out what I like and how to please a partner in bed, so I won't appear to be clueless if I do ever meet "the one".

Did you previously have a strong ideal of only wanting to sleep with someone you're in love with? It not, your situation is not all that comparable to the OP. What you did was the right thing for you, and you feel better having made these experiences than you would without them. But there are people (like me) who'd rather be a virgin at 43 than having had casual sex. (FWB, not *that* radically against it, but really can't see myself doing it either.)

Originally Posted by Kratos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Wow... there has been a lot of great perspectives thrown out there(Thank you all) but this has struck a major chord with me. Thank you. I wish this breed of people weren't so hard to find. The emotion does exist, I felt it briefly. The level of communication was amazing. The intricacies of our interactions were beautiful. It was a feeling of intense and mutual understanding. This is what I crave. This is worth dying for. ... I'm sooooooo fucked.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I also wish people like us weren't so hard to find. ^^

With which woman did you have these amazing interactions with? Why did it not work out?

[RandomLurker]

	Originally Posted by Beezlebub To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You're using your ideals as an excuse for for social ineptitude. You haven't had sex so your you opinion is based completely on an abstract misconception of what sex is. Have it, try it out. Then come back to me and spout an opinion.

So one is not allowed to pontificate on one's own personal desires without direct experience? Hmmm, eating a big pile of dog crap sounds like a horrible idea that I would not enjoy, but I have to go do it before I'm allowed to make that judgement call?

Sorry that sleeping with random skanks isn't my thing. I'm not demonizing you because it is yours though. It always amazes me how aggressive the sexually active are towards those who aren't sexually active. I have no problem with your lifestyle, it just isn't for me, yet your type constantly feel the need to attack my lifestyle. Probably because you're so dissatisfied with your own.

And if we're talking about someone who has spent 30 years waiting for a good person to come along, I believe it's even MORE appropriate for me to talk about it since I've walked a similar path and you haven't. How about you abstain from banging random whores for 30 years then YOU can talk.

[jisnowhere]

[QUOTE=Still Standing;2541793]Yeah, I can understand that a Mormon university research would arrive at that conclusion.

good observation, but the institution per se is not a qualifier (or disqualifier) of validity of the survey. if they surveyed only in their community, then yea, i think a broader reach might yield a better result.

[eagleseven]

	Originally Posted by RandomLurker To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm not demonizing you because it is yours though. It always amazes me how aggressive the sexually active are towards those who aren't sexually active. I have no problem with your lifestyle, it just isn't for me, yet your type constantly feel the need to attack my lifestyle. Probably because you're so dissatisfied with your own.

Perhaps you upset them when you suggest that non-virgins have wasted their lives.

	Originally Posted by RandomLurker To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If Billy gives up now and just settles for anyone then he really did waste the last 30 years.

Not only are you suggesting that virginity is a terrible thing to "waste", but you're putting so much pressure on the "quality" of his first real relationship, he's likely to have a heart attack the next time he sees a girl he likes.

ZOMG if my first girlfriend isn't PERFECT I've WASTED 30 YEARS! HELP!

Keep it up, and we'll be having this conversation with Billy again in ten years.

[RandomLurker]

Originally Posted by eagleseven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Perhaps you upset them when you suggest that non-virgins have wasted their lives. Not only are you suggesting that virginity is a terrible thing to "waste", but you're putting so much pressure on the "quality" of his first real relationship, he's likely to have a heart attack the next time he sees a girl he likes. ZOMG if my first girlfriend isn't PERFECT I've WASTED 30 YEARS! HELP! Keep it up, and we'll be having this conversation with Billy again in ten years. Unless he's committed suicide from loneliness or become a monk.

I never said non-virgins wasted 30 years of their lives, that statement was directed only at Billy. If someone is willing to wait 30 years for ANYTHING and then just give up on it, then wouldn't that 30 years they waited ultimately be a waste? If you've come this far, why give up now?

[eagleseven]

	Originally Posted by jisnowhere To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	good observation, but the institution per se is not a qualifier (or disqualifier) of validity of the survey. if they surveyed only in their community, then yea, i think a broader reach might yield a better result.

If there's a strong stigma on premarital sex, as there is in most Christian denominations/sects, the people who have premarital sex will skew towards the most rebellious, and thus the most likely to bail from marriage.

In other words, obedient Christians (no premarital sex) are less likely to divorce than rebellious Christians (who have premarital sex). Thus, premarital sex is an indicator, not a cause, of decreased relationship instability.

---------- Post added 05-10-2012 at 09:34 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by RandomLurker To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I never said non-virgins wasted 30 years of their lives, that statement was directed only at Billy. If someone is willing to wait 30 years for ANYTHING and then just give up on it, then wouldn't that 30 years they waited ultimately be a waste? If you've come this far, why give up now?

By the looks of the OP, he is not waiting for any religious or spiritual reason, but simply because he has not attracted any suitable candidates due to his social ineptitude.

And about waiting 30 years? Moby Dick.

[Still Standing]

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yeah, I can understand that a Mormon university research would arrive at that conclusion.

	Originally Posted by jisnowhere To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	good observation, but the institution per se is not a qualifier (or disqualifier) of validity of the survey. if they surveyed only in their community, then yea, i think a broader reach might yield a better result.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
that those results were skewed from Psychology Today.