[Xanthippe]

Does this really come as a surprise, given the economic situation in Greece? I wonder how Spain will fare in the near future.

Europe has been relatively peaceful for a little while now. It wouldn't surprise me if that changed soon.

[Marcus Septim]

Not only we Greeks failed to break the established order of the two parties

Since the current/previous Government (13% on the election poll)
Will be getting 50 seats from the second most voted party ( who got 16%)
But will establish a cooperative Government with the other established party (who got 18%)

But peoples frustration and anger managed to get neo-nazis into the Parliament!

[Daoist]

I don't think I have to remind anyone (but I will, just in case) that the original Nazis got their start in an economic environment of foreign debts that would have been impossible to pay off. It's very similar to the way Germany was requiring Greece to go through the motions of paying everything off, or to face further economic repercussions - with full knowledge that it was just putting the Greek economy further into the crapper.

Now that they've defaulted, it seems they don't have foreigners to blame for their troubles quite as much...still, things may take a while to settle down.

[Vulture]

we sure they are neo-nazis?

they claim that they aren't. most neo-nazis i've read about are pretty proud to state they are.

just throwing it out there... you know... media and labels and all that. not saying they aren't, but i haven't seen anything that says that they ARE neo-nazis other than a questionable flag and salute.

[Savagelight]

	Originally Posted by Xanthippe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Does this really come as a surprise, given the economic situation in Greece? I wonder how Spain will fare in the near future. Europe has been relatively peaceful for a little while now. It wouldn't surprise me if that changed soon.

Europe and especially Spain is a mess. 50% youth unemployment in Spain. Just wait, Americans will build private prisons in Spain and Greece.

[eagleseven]

	Originally Posted by Vulture To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	we sure they are neo-nazis? they claim that they aren't. most neo-nazis i've read about are pretty proud to state they are. just throwing it out there... you know... media and labels and all that. not saying they aren't, but i haven't seen anything that says that they ARE neo-nazis other than a questionable flag and salute.

And their platform, which I pulled from their site in a previous post. Militarism, socialism, nationalism, totalitarianism, and scapegoating the European Union and ethnic Turks for all of their problems.

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck...must be.

[Sk8ordude]

Greece has huge corruption problems, at least with these guys people know where they stand.

Not that I'd vote for them.

[Megalomania]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if a Nazi party actually pulled Greece out of a depression?
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[Marcus Septim]

	Originally Posted by Megalomania To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Wouldn't it be hilarious if a Nazi party actually pulled Greece out of a depression? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No it would not

Not at all

It's a scary thought for me

[eagleseven]

	Originally Posted by Marcus Septim To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's a scary thought for me

I'd be kinda spooked if I was in your shoes right now. And possibly contemplating moving, if you have relatives in a different country.

[phoboser]

	Originally Posted by eagleseven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck...must be.

There are similarities, but do they make them morally equivalent?

Golden Dawn is isolationist, while the Nazis wanted to subjugate other nations. The Nazis wanted to exterminate the Jews, but does Golden Dawn want to exterminate Greece's interlopers, or just return them to their original lands?

[StoltenStolten]

Greeks got fucked by their previous government.

They choose not to pay.

Powerful investors got rest of the EU backing those loans already, so they are not losing money.

You figure it out.

[themuzicman]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"Be afraid, exultant Greek neo-Nazis warn rivals" To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I guess the Greeks decided to give some Nazis a chance to lead them instead of their usual politicians. What do you think? Can the Nazis turn around the Greek economy?

A bunch of spoiled baby boomer types. They wanted it all, bought it all on credit, and then were mad when the creditors wanted to be paid back. If they default on any of this, they should be kicked out of the EU, and their currency considered valueless.

[LaoTzu]

	Originally Posted by Thinker To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't think (6% of the vote) 19 out of a 300 seat parliament classifies as "lead". When people are disillusioned they look in all sorts of places for political solutions. This is probably more a vote against the political parties who have been in power for the last 20 years.

my sentiments exactly

[Daoist]

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A bunch of spoiled baby boomer types. They wanted it all, bought it all on credit, and then were mad when the creditors wanted to be paid back. If they default on any of this, they should be kicked out of the EU, and their currency considered valueless.

In other words...if they default on this, they should default on every contract that was denominated in Euros.

[Megalomania]

	Originally Posted by Marcus Septim To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No it would not Not at all It's a scary thought for me

It's okay. Once everyone has a job and can roll around in their little paper gods it won't matter who is in power.

[pironiro]

I like the name. Golden Dawn sounds like a faction from an RPG game.
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[Murloc]

I wonder if they have anything to do with this
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[Tristan]

It's like the Nazis are the errand boys God sends to collect the debts of decadence. I wonder if he'll be sending them our way...

[Causa Mortis]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"Be afraid, exultant Greek neo-Nazis warn rivals" To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I guess the Greeks decided to give some Nazis a chance to lead them instead of their usual politicians. What do you think? Can the Nazis turn around the Greek economy?

The Euro was, is, and will be a moronic venture.

The entire PURPOSE of flexible exchange rates is to allow the market to automatically correct for heterogeneously stupid government policies vis a vi a real exchange rate.

I do not understand how the Euro is persisting. I do not understand why the Greeks are in it. I do not understand why the Germans are in it. I do not understand why the Spanish are in it. I do not understand why the European economy is lumbering towards disaster. To save on transaction costs that are trivial in today's world?

[Storm]

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A bunch of spoiled baby boomer types. They wanted it all, bought it all on credit, and then were mad when the creditors wanted to be paid back. If they default on any of this, they should be kicked out of the EU, and their currency considered valueless.

I think you're missing the point. The Nazi party rose to power partly because Germany's economy was in the crapper and the other countries decided to punish them farther instead of helping them out, allowing a racist party to gain hold as desperate people looked for a scapegoat and a way out. The concern is that not helping Greece out will lead to the same kind of thing, and it appears it already has a foothold. Luckily, it's not quite there yet and relatively recent horror of Nazism might prevent the same kind of fever from sweeping the nation.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The Euro was, is, and will be a moronic venture. The entire PURPOSE of flexible exchange rates is to allow the market to automatically correct for heterogeneously stupid government policies vis a vi a real exchange rate. I do not understand how the Euro is persisting. I do not understand why the Greeks are in it. I do not understand why the Germans are in it. I do not understand why the Spanish are in it. I do not understand why the European economy is lumbering towards disaster. To save on transaction costs that are trivial in today's world?

But can't you extrapolate that argument to the US.....why does the USD persist?
Why don't the rich states and poor states have their own currencies and allow the currency to make adjustments for productivity etc etc.

I guess the answer is historic and political rather than rational.....in both the USA and EU.

Also, I would think that where Greece is concerned, staying with the Euro is keeping the greek standard of living artificially high....something the politicians can use to their advantage over the short term. Labour rates and other consumer prices are sticky downwards, so it will take a while for prices to re-adjust in the Greek economy, without an exchange rate movement. With their own currency Greece would instantly be the poor cousins in Europe. This is politically unpalatable to politicians as they know they would only ever be a single term government.

[Causa Mortis]

	Originally Posted by Thinker To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But can't you extrapolate that argument to the US.....why does the USD persist?

Because they're relatively much more fiscally, culturally, linguistically, educationally, and socially much more heterogeneous than the Europeans.

	Why don't the rich states and poor states have their own currencies and allow the currency to make adjustments for productivity etc etc.

But a lot of the business cycle - at least AD-driven business cycles - is about people's emotional responses to various cultural events. Take an extreme example -Christmas produces a large economic boom in the US and in its trading partners. Not the case in Mongolia. The optimal monetary policy given these cultural constraints is very different.

Also, I would think that where Greece is concerned, staying with the Euro is keeping the greek standard of living artificially high....something the politicians can use to their advantage over the short term. Labour rates and other consumer prices are sticky downwards, so it will take a while for prices to re-adjust in the Greek economy, without an exchange rate movement. With their own currency Greece would instantly be the poor cousins in Europe. This is politically unpalatable to politicians as they know they would only ever be a single term government.

You don't seem to share my perspective: the Greek system is completely broken. There are few ways to fix the system in a purely technocratic perspective. There is no solution in light of public choice problems.

The ONLY practical solution I see for Greece is massive devaluation. MASSIVE. 90% currency depreciation. It's then 50k for a nice beach house on the water, you can see the whole country for $1500, and net exports boom.

This business of waiting for the long run won't work because people won't accept it.

[KonTiki]

Originally Posted by Daoist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I don't think I have to remind anyone (but I will, just in case) that the original Nazis got their start in an economic environment of foreign debts that would have been impossible to pay off. It's very similar to the way Germany was requiring Greece to go through the motions of paying everything off, or to face further economic repercussions - with full knowledge that it was just putting the Greek economy further into the crapper. Now that they've defaulted, it seems they don't have foreigners to blame for their troubles quite as much...still, things may take a while to settle down.

I think this is a good point, and one that had not occurred to me. I've been largely unsympathetic to the Greeks who voted in politicians who fudged budget numbers. Hold them accountable, I thought.

But on reflection I think that whoever lent money to Greece in the first place should realize their full losses. And if people want to protest in favor of bigger debt write downs, I'm all for it!

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Because they're relatively much more fiscally, culturally, linguistically, educationally, and socially much more heterogeneous than the Europeans. But a lot of the business cycle - at least AD-driven business cycles - is about people's emotional responses to various cultural events. Take an extreme example -Christmas produces a large economic boom in the US and in its trading partners. Not the case in Mongolia. The optimal monetary policy given these cultural constraints is very different.

Fair points

	You don't seem to share my perspective: the Greek system is completely broken. There are few ways to fix the system in a purely technocratic perspective. There is no solution in light of public choice problems.

No...perhaps we do share the same perspective.
I agree that the Greek economy is broken.

I also agree that there are certain macro-economic decisions which could be made at a political level which would see improvements in their economy....moving away from the Euro is one of them.

I just don't have confidence that any current politician or political party is going to make the fundamental changes necessary to bring this about. The Greek political and economic systems are based on lies. The politicians continued to borrow money to keep the economy afloat and standard of living artificially high and then lied about how well the economy was doing. The population have a distorted view of their economy which was continually sold to them over many years.

The politicians will continue to lie and the population will continue to believe they deserve a certain (high) standard of living.....either a revolution or the passing of time seem to be the only solutions. Either way, their standard of living needs adjustment downwards....this is not something which can be sold at the ballot box.