[Fevered Dreams]

	As for your question, based the information I've read and what's been presented here, there is no information that would indicate to me that it's medically beneficial to have circumcisions or hood removals. So I wouldn't see a need for them.

In the USA, you are correct, but certain parts of the world would disagree with you. So why is this "medical treatment" not done in the USA? If it's a medical treatment, it should be done in USA too.
No need to answer, I'm just saying that to make you think.

But I'd like answers to:
You say circumcision on a newborn baby boy is done because it's a medical treatment.
What's the treatment for? What does the treatment attempt to correct?

And:
You say since parents consent a surgeon to remove the foreskin of a newborn baby boy, then it's okay.
So if by law, police were allowed to rape anyone they want, for no reason whatsoever, would that make it okay? After all, it's the law!
What I'm saying is that there are certain things that even though they're done, they shouldn't be. Hence, people fight it.

So I'd like to hear the reasons why it should be done.

[Person056]

Penn & Teller did an episode on this on their tv show "Bullsh!it!" it offered insight to both sides and reached a reasonable conclusion. of course, it tipped the scales to anti-circumcision.

[Abdicate]

We've established already that the circumcision itself has no benefits, so I would say that it treats nothing, it's not medically beneficial. I understand the connotation the phrasing "medical treatment" has, that it implies something needs to be fixed or repaired. At the same time if you'd delve deeper into the issue, you'd have to argue the entire nature of what a supposed physician is, which is apparently to "fix".

When I say a physician is given consent to do something, I'm not giving a moral perspective on the procedure or treatment. When consent is given or even not given by a patient to a physician, that physician is obligated to respect that patient's decision, or choose not to treat that patient at all.

Given the current social constructs today, legalized rape would not be accepted. So why does that make circumcision okay? Why should it be done? The best answer I can give you for that is: because circumcision has been widely used as a cultural marker, and given its meaning to many different religions, the perspective is different. If I recall from my Catholic school days, the circumcision of Abraham helped to form a "covenant" with God, which in itself is quite meaningful if you hold the belief that God exists.

From my perspective though, since I don't consider religion, I would say that it doesn't need to be done. But it does exists and for the reasons it does, I am not at liberty to tell people otherwise, because I can't disprove the notion of a deity.

[Fevered Dreams]

Does what I'm saying make sense? I feel like I'm not getting across. Seems to me you keep missing the point (on purpose?)
If my arguments don't make any sense, I'd appreciate if it you tell me so, and explain how. That goes for anyone (thanks in advance).

(edit: just showed this thread to my sister, and she sent me this link:
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Good stuff!)

	Originally Posted by Abdicate To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	When I say a physician is given consent to do something, I'm not giving a moral perspective on the procedure or treatment. When consent is given or even not given by a patient to a physician, that physician is obligated to respect that patient's decision, or choose not to treat that patient at all.

But we keep going in circles here.
If this issue was as simple as "by law, doctors can do it, therefore it's okay", this thread wouldn't have 9 pages.
The point with the police rape question, was to make you see that just because something is legal, it doesn't necessarily mean it's good for the people, and it's up to citizens to change things for the better.

So back on topic, the doctor (in my opinion) shouldn't even be allowed to do it, regardless of the parent's wishes. What I mean, is, it should become illegal. To me it seems that since it's legal, you're okay with it, but why should it be legal in the first place? Why do we have the right to harm our babies?

Do you see what I'm getting at?

And again, consent is given by the parents, when it should be the child (as an adult) to decide. Even if people were doing it for religious reasons, those would generally be done when the child is able to speak for himself, not as a baby.

I mean, if I can make the decision as a parent, then can I also cut my daughters genitals? Could I remove her breasts, since nowadays we have baby formula?
Would you be okay with other parents doing that to their daughters? You don't have the liberty to tell me otherwise, right?
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	because circumcision has been widely used as a cultural marker, and given its meaning to many different religions, the perspective is different

But most people aren't doing it for religious reasons. Before I moved to USA, I used to think circumcision was no big deal, just something the Jewish do, just a little tiny cut that doesn't change anything. Yet it's not just a little cut, it changes things a lot for men and women during the sexual act, and it's not just the religious who are doing it.

Even if you mention religious people should do things according to their religion... Muslims and Mormons can't have more than one legal wife in USA, can they? So why would circumcision be legal too?

[Samson86]

Originally Posted by nightmar149 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

False. No evidence whatsoever to support this. Oh, the child remembers, and in ways you don't understand. Also, how about letting your child discover if he actually WANTS THE PROCEDURE DONE before going and DOING IT FOR THEM. It's called the FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT OF BODILY INTEGRITY. You are infringing a NATURAL ANIMAL RIGHT. You have absolutely no right to surgically transform a sentient, helpless human being without their consent. Watch as your baby son does not give consent as he wrestles against his restraints while a doctor removes the most sensitive part of his male anatomy. Watch as his sexual function is instantly transformed into not half of what it was. Congratulations, you just needlessly fucked up a person for life.

I was circumcised when i was 8 and let me tell you my life in no way is fucked up..i might be a minority but in Fiji where i got circumcised it was with my cousins and we all get a feast it was fun. Also watching the doctor cut your foreskin off is friggin hectic almost as good as sky diving lol

i am 26 now and i don't regret my beanie getting sliced off i actually think it looks quite nice and i have never had any complaints from women
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[mormeguil]

Samson, while you may be happy with the decision. Imagine if you where un-happy about it ? Should these person be considered crazy ? It's honestly a needless operation done on someone whitout the full enlightened consent. How this can be authorised and female gential mutilation is not...thats beyond me.

[mieu]

	Originally Posted by Samson86 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	i am 26 now and i don't regret my beanie getting sliced off i actually think it looks quite nice and i have never had any complaints from women To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The fact that the circumcised penis is considered the norm (in the US, by the way) such that the natural penis is not preferred doesn't strike you as just a little bit alarming?

[Samson86]

	Originally Posted by mormeguil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Samson, while you may be happy with the decision. Imagine if you where un-happy about it ? Should these person be considered crazy ? It's honestly a needless operation done on someone whitout the full enlightened consent. How this can be authorised and female gential mutilation is not...thats beyond me.

I don't think they should be called crazy no.

I physically can't imagine not being un-happy about something that seems rather small in the larger scheme of things.

Before i would be unhappy about some piece of skin or how i am missing out on some extra sensitivity i would rather be un-happy about my family in fiji that live on 5 dollars a day and can barely survive.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by Samson86 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't think they should be called crazy no. I physically can't imagine not being un-happy about something that seems rather small in the larger scheme of things. Before i would be unhappy about some piece of skin or how i am missing out on some extra sensitivity i would rather be un-happy about my family in fiji that live on 5 dollars a day and can barely survive.

Good for you for being concerned about others' welfare. Other people think sex is a big deal in their lives. Both attitudes are right for the individual in question.

[Samson86]

	Originally Posted by mieu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The fact that the circumcised penis is considered the norm (in the US, by the way) such that the natural penis is not preferred doesn't strike you as just a little bit alarming?

I live in brisbane, aus and about 80% of guys that i have had this weird conversation with are uncircumcised guys here are pretty indifferent about it. And the females here don't mind either way what your penis looks like aslong long as you can satisfy.

[Fecal McAngry]

	Originally Posted by Fevered Dreams To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I agree with you. The problem here is that the parents are making the decision for newborn baby boys who have no say in the matter.

I know. It's horrific, of course. I'm just a bit benumbed by all the horrific things that done be happenin'.


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[Samson86]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Good for you for being concerned about others' welfare. Other people think sex is a big deal in their lives. Both attitudes are right for the individual in question.

Thanks!
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. Don't get me wrong i like sex but i am not going to cry over spilt milk as the saying goes.

[LadySpock]

	Originally Posted by mieu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The fact that the circumcised penis is considered the norm (in the US, by the way) such that the natural penis is not preferred doesn't strike you as just a little bit alarming?

On an intellectual level - yes, it's alarming.

And - circumcision is NOT medically necessary.

The thing is - on an emotional / sexual attraction level I want no parts of an uncut penis.

What can I say? ((Shoulder shrug))

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by LadySpock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	On an intellectual level - yes, it's alarming. And - circumcision is NOT medically necessary. The thing is - on an emotional / sexual attraction level I want no parts of an uncut penis. What can I say? ((Shoulder shrug))

I'm sorry if I missed it, but what about it is so abhorrent to you? You just seem really determined to keep repeating that.

I'm just curious if it's something you can point to, or some undefined sense of ickiness.

---------- Post added 05-02-2012 at 08:21 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Fevered Dreams To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I mean, if I can make the decision as a parent, then can I also cut my daughters genitals? Could I remove her breasts, since nowadays we have baby formula? Would you be okay with other parents doing that to their daughters? You don't have the liberty to tell me otherwise, right? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Abdicate was making a point about necessarily maintaining some respectfulness towards cultural practices alien to you. Banal as this sounds, breast cutting is your own invention (for the sake of argument, no less) and would fall into a different category.

[illustral]

I have no extensive knowledge on the subject, but I can hazard a guess as to why circumcision was introduced in the first place. Since, as many have pointed out, a lot of bacteria and fungi can grow between the foreskin and the glans if not kept clean, risk of debilitating infection in uncircumcised males in biblical times (coupled with lack of antibiotics and proper hygiene) could mean disfigurement or loss of the organ altogether. So how do you solve a problem like that given the medical constraints of the time? Prophylactic surgery. I. e. cut off the part that causes the problem. For example, if one develops gangreen in the foot, the foot is excised to save the leg. HOWEVER because we have made great advances in medicine and hygiene and the like, there is no way that one can justify mutilating an infant for the rest of his life (unless he decides to undergo foreskin regrowth, which is uncomfortable, and takes about two years of constant, daily skin stretching).

I was unfortunately circumcised, and that fact irritates me. I'm aware that my sensitivity will always be greatly impaired, and I will never be able to fully enjoy any sexual experiences. My body was defaced without my consent, at the behest of my idiot parents. No man wants this. No man wakes up one day and says, "I would like to have my sexual function permanently reduced to half!" It is cruel. It is inhumane. It is unjustifiable. And it needs to stop.

[Fevered Dreams]

	Originally Posted by Samson86 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	i have never had any complaints from women To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yeah, because women are perfectly comfortable telling a man that he can't make her orgasm. Haha. If a woman did tell you that you can't bring her to orgasm, how would you feel?

	Originally Posted by Samson86 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	aslong long as you can satisfy.

Yes, but can you satisfy?
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(see above)
Also remember that even if you can satisfy, not all circumcised men can. A lot of them can't orgasm unless he makes her so sore and bleed. A lot of them can go for hours and not come. A lot of them have pain during sex because of a badly performed circumcision. A lot of circumcised men's penises get errect in a strange way because of a badly performed circumcision. Sorry, but eventually a woman will fake orgasm to spare your feelings, and to make the pain or boredom stop!

	Originally Posted by Samson86 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Thanks! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. . Don't get me wrong i like sex but i am not going to cry over spilt milk as the saying goes.

I DO like sex, okay? As a human being, we all have the right to enjoy sex as we are biologically supposed to. Not some really strange way because of a circumcised penis. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be circumcised, if you are happy, good for you, no problem. But don't just put other people's problems under the rug!

	Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I know. It's horrific, of course. I'm just a bit benumbed by all the horrific things that done be happenin'. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Wow, what an intelligent argument, my brain just about blowed up at the power of your very well reasoned argument.

	Originally Posted by mormeguil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How this can be authorised and female gential mutilation is not...thats beyond me.

I'm curious about that too, people are completely ignoring that! I don't get it!

	Abdicate was making a point about necessarily maintaining some respectfulness towards cultural practices alien to you.

What the heck? The USA is not alien to me, I live there.
And I grew up in a country where most of the population was roman catholic. Boys were intact!
What is this "traditional practice" that's done to newborn baby boys in USA that's alien to me? Do tell me. Besides the very small portion of the population that do it for religious reasons, what is this non-religious traditional practice in USA?

	Banal as this sounds, breast cutting is your own invention (for the sake of argument, no less) and would fall into a different category.

Yes, it's a silly example.
How does it fall into a different category? Alright, even if it does, what about female cutting, why is it not allowed in USA, even if it WERE part of someone's tradition, as it is in many places? I've asked this before, no answer.

	I want no parts of an uncut penis.

Yes, so men should get cut because YOU think a natural penis is gross. If all men were intact, would you be celibate? I assure you men who clean themselves don't have a problem. Just like intact women who clean themselves.

[Samson86]

Originally Posted by Fevered Dreams To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yeah, because women are perfectly comfortable telling a man that he can't make her orgasm. Haha. If a woman did tell you that you can't bring her to orgasm, how would you feel? Yes, but can you satisfy? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. (see above) Also remember that even if you can satisfy, not all circumcised men can. A lot of them can't orgasm unless he makes her so sore and bleed. A lot of them can go for hours and not come. A lot of them have pain during sex because of a badly performed circumcision. A lot of circumcised men's penises get errect in a strange way because of a badly performed circumcision. Sorry, but eventually a woman will fake orgasm to spare your feelings, and to make the pain or boredom stop! I DO like sex, okay? As a human being, we all have the right to enjoy sex as we are biologically supposed to. Not some really strange way because of a circumcised penis. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be circumcised, if you are happy, good for you, no problem. But don't just put other people's problems under the rug!

Women have told me because i enjoy them being happy so i ask what makes them orgasm it is common sense to pleasure her first before yourself and we work on it together. i don't feel bad if i don't make them orgasm as it is not an issue for me.

So you alot of circumcised guys have pain or make their partners go through pain where is the evidence for that can you show me links where it says the majority of circumcised guys have painful sex.

So your saying circumcision is strange and i should feel bad for being circumcised? also i am not going to sit here worrying about some other guys penis and how bad he feels i am quite happy to put that under 100 rugs.

I think you just like to argue.

[Nightmare]

	So your saying circumcision is strange and i should feel bad for being circumcised? also i am not going to sit here worrying about some other guys penis and how bad he feels i am quite happy to put that under 100 rugs.

You're not obligated to do anything. I do, however, feel totally violated and an object of true ethical and medical malpractice.

I really would recommend, though, if you do decide to have any children that you keep this discussion in mind. Though you may not feel bad or see any differences, leave circumcision to your offspring to decide when they come of age and have been truthfully informed of all the negatives of it.

[mormeguil]

Samson, if you ever have children. Will you get the circumcised or not ? Why yes and why not ?

[Samson86]

i got circumcised when i was 7-8 but i do remember that i wanted to be circumcised i will leave it up to my kids if they want it.

doesn't really bother me at all they are (hypothetical offspring) humans let them decide if they want the snip.

but i am just saying i am circumcised and i don't feel any less a human my life isn't fucked up and i don't give two shits if i have less sensitivity and if i wanted my foreskin back so badly i would pay for what ever surgery there is for it and not complain as it get's nothing done.

---------- Post added 05-04-2012 at 12:00 AM ----------

Originally Posted by nightmar149 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You're not obligated to do anything. I do, however, feel totally violated and an object of true ethical and medical malpractice. I really would recommend, though, if you do decide to have any children that you keep this discussion in mind. Though you may not feel bad or see any differences, leave circumcision to your offspring to decide when they come of age and have been truthfully informed of all the negatives of it.

i really want to understand why?

does it stop you from picking up a nice girl friend or something, Does it stop you from breathing, working, eating, watching a movie, talking to people?

Are you that self conscious over your circumcised penis really? there must be more to the story...

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by Samson86 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	i really want to understand why? does it stop you from picking up a nice girl friend or something, Does it stop you from breathing, working, eating, watching a movie, talking to people? Are you that self conscious over your circumcised penis really? there must be more to the story...

Circumcisions remove 80% or more of the male erogenous nerve endings. Some circumsized males are unable to achieve orgasm because of the lack of sensation. I'd say that's worth being upset over, much less the rightly-incensed minority of men who are deformed in the procedure.

[MechanicalSun]

It's like seeing a Pelican arguing with an Ostrich, because the Ostrich allowed its wings to be clipped.

[LadySpock]

I smell bullshit.

I have seen no reports of circumcized men being unable to achieve climax.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by LadySpock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I smell bullshit. I have seen no reports of circumcized men being unable to achieve climax.

Meet the inventor, fabricator, marketer and owner of The Tugger, the premiere foreskin-regrowth tool on the market. Why did he do it? Continual and long-term problem achieving orgasm.


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or


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Since restoring skin to cover the glans, he reports that sex is now completely satisfying for him. And many of his customers agree.

[Fevered Dreams]

	Originally Posted by Samson86 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Women have told me because i enjoy them being happy so i ask what makes them orgasm it is common sense to pleasure her first before yourself and we work on it together.

That's what circumcised men are taught.
But if you are intact and you have sex with a woman, you don't have to try to please her, your intact penis automatically pleases her.
You both orgasm at the same time, as his intact penis makes her orgasm, he orgasms from the contractions of her vaginal walls. It just happens. You don't have to consciously make sure she is pleased first.

Can you imagine a male dog thinking "Oh, I better be sure I please her first, so we can make puppies!"
Of course not, he doesn't have to since he's intact.

	So you alot of circumcised guys have pain or make their partners go through pain where is the evidence for that can you show me links where it says the majority of circumcised guys have painful sex.

What does it matter if the majority of circumcised men have problems? Why should circumcision should have been done in the first place? Assume I mean people who are not religious. If one in ten people had problems, how is that any different than 9 in 10 having problems, 1 person in 10 is one too many having problems. Could you reply to this. After you do, I will be more than happy to post links.

	So your saying circumcision is strange.

Yes.

	and i should feel bad for being circumcised?

No. I told you before.

	also i am not going to sit here worrying about some other guys penis and how bad he feels i am quite happy to put that under 100 rugs.

Jeez, sorry that I assumed decent human beings care about other people's wellbeing.