[happy]

I cannot keep myself from seeing relationships (especially marriages) as the enslavement of women by men and society. I am not a feminist. Au contraire, I wish I was a man and could find a woman to give birth to my children and take care of them while I am fully concentrated on my career. As a woman in her early 30s, I still do not have any desire to have my own babies. My ISTJ mom thinks that I am odd. Do you think such thinking is likely to change when one reaches her 40s? to put it differently, do you think I will regret this later?

[masterpeach]

Babies are also born to unmarried women. It's not a relationship's fault that these things happen...

I find your post (thread title) confusing as it confuses several concepts.

You assume that people are forced to get married/live in relationships because the ultimate aim of society is conservation of our species. In this sense, society is just a framework for an evolutionary concept. (Yes, governments are interested in future tax payers.)

I think it depends on the culture you live in whether your theory of "enslavement" still applies. Western cultures have freed the individual from this, I think.

[Nordman]

First, since when does a relationship make procreation mandatory?

Second, to your observation on the slavery part: Indeed. Yay!

[Sethis]

The "enslavement" is mutual.

	Originally Posted by happy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I am not a feminist. Au contraire, I wish I was a man and could find a woman to give birth to my children and take care of them while I am fully concentrated on my career.

Of course not a feminist. Just phallocratic.

[mieu]

Originally Posted by happy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I cannot keep myself from seeing relationships (especially marriages) as the enslavement of women by men and society. I am not a feminist. Au contraire, I wish I was a man and could find a woman to give birth to my children and take care of them while I am fully concentrated on my career. As a woman in her early 30s, I still do not have any desire to have my own babies. My ISTJ mom thinks that I am odd. Do you think such thinking is likely to change when one reaches her 40s? to put it differently, do you think I will regret this later?

You may be surprised, but there exist men who don't expect women to be solely the vessel of their genes--a surprisingly high number, too. I've found one that I particularly like
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
. I have zero desire to have children at this point in time, but I realize that I may change my mind later, and he feels the same way. I have a career, he is still discovering himself, I have way too many things I'd like to do with my current freedoms from parental responsibility. The only pressure we experience is from both of our mothers, who want me to have a child and give it to them to take care of...whaaat?
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My younger sister had an epiphany similar to your mother. She is an ExFJ and for most of her childhood was stuck on the 'traditional role' setup (refusing to acknowledge that divorce was a real option, white picket fence, 2.5 children, etc). I've always had some form of boyfriend, and one day we got on the topic of marriage and how I don't feel that it's a requirement for a meaningful, life-long relationship--and neither were children. In shock, she (a 15 year old virginal girlchild) asked me how I could possibly find meaning in my life without any children. I told her she was crazy, that children are not the be-all, end-all. They're a lifelong commitment and one that I'm not willing to take on at this time. Years later, she has grown to understand my point.

As for regret, I can't help you there as I haven't been there yet. I may not want children right now, but I realize that there may come a time in my life where I'd like to have that experience you only live once, after all. It comes with sacrifices, but there are reasons why a mother boggles at someone who says they'd never want children.

Adoption is always an option. In fact, I decided that if I were to ever have children that I would adopt, or perhaps foster at least one.

[JackCY]

Originally Posted by happy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I cannot keep myself from seeing relationships (especially marriages) as the enslavement of women by men and society. I am not a feminist. Au contraire, I wish I was a man and could find a woman to give birth to my children and take care of them while I am fully concentrated on my career. As a woman in her early 30s, I still do not have any desire to have my own babies. My ISTJ mom thinks that I am odd. Do you think such thinking is likely to change when one reaches her 40s? to put it differently, do you think I will regret this later?

It's not that uncommon for women, especially INTJs here on the forum to not be interested in having kids. You have the choice, you either have them or not, it's up to you to decide what you want.

ISTJ vs INTJ, well it's normal that they don't get us or understand us well, especially how we think, so don't worry about it. You're not odd.

[JustMel]

Relationships and marriage are only "enslavement" if you marry or have a relationship with someone with that mentality. My husband and I have always played to our strengths, regardless of the "right" gender to perform that task. He's been the stay at home parent, I have too. We've both worked from home at different times and together, we've both worked outside the home at different times and together. It depended on what was right for our family at the time and is a mutual decision.

It's less about the relationship and more about the people in the relationship and their feelings/beliefs about relationships and roles within. You choose your partner, if you want one, so if you end up with someone who expects you not to follow your dreams that was your choice. It's not enslavement if it's a choice.

Do I think you'll regret not having children? Probably not. Choosing to be child free is becoming more of a "normal" now. If any of my children chose not to have children I'd be okay with it. I have one grandson and that daughter has stated she wants no more. The next oldest has none and says she doesn't want to think about it until she's past her party phase and in her mid 20s. The 11 yr old has always said she doesn't want children while the 7 yr old responds to "what do you want to be when you grow up" with "a mommy" and has since she was 3. The oldest of the nieces I raised has none, the next oldest has 5, the next has 3 (none of which she has custody of), the brother and youngest sister of those three have none and don't want them. We have almost 50 great nieces and nephews between us and no doubt there will be more coming.

Having kids is a choice. If you don't want them, don't have them. If you regret it in your 40s and can't conceive you adopt. It's not that difficult.

[Still Standing]

I've known a few long-time married couples who've never had any kids. It makes more sense to me that two people tie the knot because they're truly committed to one another and have similar life goals than doing it to legitimize a coital 'accident'.

[StoltenStolten]

	Originally Posted by happy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	do you think I will regret this later?

Yes I do.

Let me put it this way:
Do you think you are interesting enough to keep yourself entertained for the rest of your life?
Do you find enormous purpose in crafts or other simple hobbies?
Do you find drug abuse a fine substitute to a fulfilling life?

If the answer to any of those is yes, then you probably dont dont want kids.

On the other hand, if you do decide to have kids, you probably want a man too. Not for you, but for your kids. Kids like fathers. You want your kids happy.

It's not easy being a woman. My condolences.

[plotthickens]

Originally Posted by StoltenStolten To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yes I do. Let me put it this way: Do you think you are interesting enough to keep yourself entertained for the rest of your life? Do you find enormous purpose in crafts or other simple hobbies? Do you find drug abuse a fine substitute to a fulfilling life? If the answer to any of those is yes, then you probably dont dont want kids. On the other hand, if you do decide to have kids, you probably want a man too. Not for you, but for your kids. Kids like fathers. You want your kids happy. It's not easy being a woman. My condolences.

Screw your paternalistic heteronormative bullshit. I've been Childfree By Choice most of my adult life and now that I'm sterile IT IS SO NICE NOT TO WORRY ABOUT GETTING PREGNANT.

• Men are not around to give women babies.
• Women are not baby factories.
• Drugs are not how one suppresses an intrinsic baby-need.
• People are complete without babies.
• Children are not the same as 'fulfilling'.
• Child-rearing does not require a heterosexual pairbonded couple.
• Women do not want your pity (yes we had a meeting. About YOU. Specifically.)

Children do not make parents happier.

• [HIDE="Quote from NY Mag"]

  To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Perhaps the most oft-cited datum comes from a 2004 study by Daniel Kahneman, a Nobel Prize–winning behavioral economist, who surveyed 909 working Texas women and found that child care ranked sixteenth in pleasurability out of nineteen activities. (Among the endeavors they preferred: preparing food, watching TV, exercising, talking on the phone, napping, shopping, housework.) This result also shows up regularly in relationship research, with children invariably reducing marital satisfaction. The economist Andrew Oswald, who’s compared tens of thousands of Britons with children to those without, is at least inclined to view his data in a more positive light: “The broad message is not that children make you less happy; it’s just that children don’t make you more happy.” That is, he tells me, unless you have more than one. “Then the studies show a more negative impact.” As a rule, most studies show that mothers are less happy than fathers, that single parents are less happy still, that babies and toddlers are the hardest, and that each successive child produces diminishing returns. But some of the studies are grimmer than others. Robin Simon, a sociologist at Wake Forest University, says parents are more depressed than nonparents no matter what their circumstances—whether they’re single or married, whether they have one child or four

  [/HIDE]

• [HIDE="Quote from NY Times"]

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  [/HIDE]

[HIDE="Quote from NY Times"]

Using data sets from Europe and America, numerous scholars have found some evidence that, on aggregate, parents often report statistically significantly lower levels of happiness (Alesina et al., 2004), life satisfaction (Di Tella et al., 2003), marital satisfaction (Twenge et al., 2003) and mental well-being (Clark & Oswald, 2002) compared with non-parents. And it is not just the years of active parenting that tamp down happiness, Powdthavee writes: There is also evidence that the strains associated with parenthood are not only limited to the period during which children are physically and economically dependent. For example, Glenn and McLanahan (1981) found those older parents whose children have left home report the same or slightly less happiness than non-parents of similar age and status. Thus, what these results are suggesting is something very controversial — that having children does not bring joy to our lives.

[/HIDE]

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Many parents regret having children.

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[Still Standing]

	Originally Posted by StoltenStolten To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do you think you are interesting enough to keep yourself entertained for the rest of your life?

Do you believe that the main role of a child and a spouse is one's own entertainment?

	Do you find enormous purpose in crafts or other simple hobbies??

Can a person find enormous purpose in the pursuit of knowledge, charity work or self-actualization?

	Do you find drug abuse a fine substitute to a fulfilling life??

Are all/most childless adults drug addicts?

[happy]

Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Screw your paternalistic heteronormative bullshit. I've been Childfree By Choice most of my adult life and now that I'm sterile IT IS SO NICE NOT TO WORRY ABOUT GETTING PREGNANT. Men are not around to give women babies. Women are not baby factories. Drugs are not how one suppresses an intrinsic baby-need. People are complete without babies. Children are not the same as 'fulfilling'. Child-rearing does not require a heterosexual pairbonded couple. Women do not want your pity (yes we had a meeting. About YOU. Specifically.) Children do not make parents happier. [HIDE="Quote from NY Mag"] [/HIDE] [HIDE="Quote from NY Times"] [/HIDE] [HIDE="Quote from NY Times"][/HIDE] To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Many parents regret having children. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I am truly grateful for your sharing such interesting sources and info. I love this forum a lot because every answer shows knowledge and critical thinking! No, I do not assume everyone has to become a parent but I must say I haven't met irl much people agreeing with me on this. All friends -females in their late twenties- are now posting pics of their babies on FB and everyone around me is asking when I will do so. Perhaps it is about culture (I have a middle eastern background but have mostly lived in europe) yet I still think that there are a lot of western/european women out there who are not free individuals in its true sense.

[Selene]

Risk benefit analysis. No pain, no gain. No gamble, no future. No attempt, no failure.

[plotthickens]

Originally Posted by happy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I am truly grateful for your sharing such interesting sources and info. I love this forum a lot because every answer shows knowledge and critical thinking! No, I do not assume everyone has to become a parent but I must say I haven't met irl much people agreeing with me on this. All friends -females in their late twenties- are now posting pics of their babies on FB and everyone around me is asking when I will do so. Perhaps it is about culture (I have a middle eastern background but have mostly lived in europe) yet I still think that there are a lot of western/european women out there who are not free individuals in its true sense.

When a Childfree person posts "hey I'm relaxing on vacation, look what I'm doing with my $1,200,000.00 USD that the average child-with-education takes up", people who HAVE chosen that road get butthurt.

Understandably.

So Childfree people generally do not post such things. It's not only certain to make people angry at us, and not only are they going to be insulting, it is also kind of rude. And we get enough people being rude at us that we don't need to be rude to people!

Good look up Childfree on the web. There are people like you around you. You can make friends!
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[curiousgeorge01]

Originally Posted by happy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I cannot keep myself from seeing relationships (especially marriages) as the enslavement of women by men and society. I am not a feminist. Au contraire, I wish I was a man and could find a woman to give birth to my children and take care of them while I am fully concentrated on my career. As a woman in her early 30s, I still do not have any desire to have my own babies. My ISTJ mom thinks that I am odd. Do you think such thinking is likely to change when one reaches her 40s? to put it differently, do you think I will regret this later?

Really?? I find this the opposite where I am. Most women here want men to marry them so the baby has a father! So I see it as the woman enslaving the man. Especially if it's more in a man's nature to go out have multiple partners, then he's giving up sexual monogamy.

You actually can have a man that stays at home and takes care of the kids. The problem isn't finding one, the problem is that many women look down upon a man who stays at home. I'd be happy to stay at home and take care of children.


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And if you require your husband to work, hire a caretaker! No need to give up your career.

[True Rune]

Not what I expected when I opened the topic. I agree it's slavery, but more that you become a slave to the emotional whims of your significant other, and you're suddenly supposed to value them above family/friends to the point of cutting the former out of your life if they are toxic. But I say this as someone who has never felt strongly for another person.

[Reizu]

I think it entirely depends on the perspective of the woman in the relationship. If you don't think of marriage as enslavement and think it's a good thing, get married (You know, if you find the right guy and all that whatnot). If you think it's holding you back, don't get married.

[GreatAlias]

Originally Posted by mieu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You may be surprised, but there exist men who don't expect women to be solely the vessel of their genes--a surprisingly high number, too. I've found one that I particularly like To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. . I have zero desire to have children at this point in time, but I realize that I may change my mind later, and he feels the same way. I have a career, he is still discovering himself, I have way too many things I'd like to do with my current freedoms from parental responsibility. The only pressure we experience is from both of our mothers, who want me to have a child and give it to them to take care of...whaaat? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I only want children if my partner and I decide that it would be a good adventure for us to share, not because of some biological need. The woman I am dating now has the same view and in our last talk we agreed that kids are awesome if the relationship of the partners is awesome.

As a guy, I don't see it as enslavement. But like a lot of INTJs I am incredibly loyal and may be more of a slave to my mate than her to me...
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[changos]

Turning a long post into a shorter one... (mine)

It is a personal choice and we can all go wrong with that. Facts are facts but what every person wants involves more than facts so your opinion on kids might change, in fact your opinion regarding relationships might change to (mine has). I don't want children anymore in the way I used to, that intensity got lost along the way but it could come back I guess. No I don't believe in slaves or being one and I don't want a woman being my slave. I complain a lot on my country about the cultural thing... here if the man dies, everything goes to the trashcan as the costume is "the men will provide everything".


I believe in sharing, hey most of my work relates to computers, programming so I believe in redundance and backups (sounds silly but it is the best approach), balanced loads!!!. And I don't think having children should answer to a personal choice only, I mean "I WANT" no, it depends on circumstances, your partner, the relationship between you two, the "right time" and a perspective of the future. I believe many have children answering to a selfish desire, some to a loving desire, and many to a selfish desire disguised as a loving one.


Nature... most animals including humans will-can reproduce while they face the worst OBVIOUS scenarios. SAD. Plants on the other side might produce flowers but no precisely seeds... there are several species, some will need interaction by a third party, etc. What I want to say is, many species will produce flowers but won't produce a fruit if they don't have enough energy and nutrients, yes some will produce smaller low quality ones, but many will not even try to produce them. Sadly we humans don't have that kind of natural limitations. Hey, it is adviced in some cases to cut some leaves (to certain extent) to leave enough energy for the flower or fruit... most people refuse to do that.

[Still Standing]

Not too thrilled about what is implied here.

	Originally Posted by GreatAlias To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I only want children if my partner and I decide that it would be a good adventure for us to share, not because of some biological need.

You mean having children to satisfy your own need for thrills and excitement? I'm not a parent, but from what I've heard, there's a great part of child rearing that is rather boring and tedious. And you can't get rid of them once you're up for a new 'adventure'.

	The woman I am dating now has the same view and in our last talk we agreed that kids are awesome if the relationship of the partners is awesome.

And if the relationship of the partners turns sour, then the kids are... still awesome?

[GreatAlias]

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You mean having children to satisfy your own need for thrills and excitement? I'm not a parent, but from what I've heard, there's a great part of child rearing that is rather boring and tedious. And you can't get rid of them once you're up for a new 'adventure'.

Umm, no, where did you get that idea? Maybe it would be like that if I and my partner didn't have a strong sense of commitment, but if that were the case I wouldn't want us to have kids. And I am not sure what you'd call the boring and tedious part, the entire journey of watching them grow into adults is the adventure, not just taking them to Disneyland.

I may take flak for this, but stay with me. I have 2 cats (I am not saying children are pets), and before these 2 I had 2 (they passed away at an old age). Sure, changing the litter boxes wasn't 'fun', fixing their water bowl today wasn't fun, cleaning up barf isn't 'fun'. But, every day is an adventure with them. Watching one of them go from very shy to just fairly shy has been great. I'd never get rid of them for anything. Ever. Not because it is 'wrong' to dump them, but because they are part of my family and even when they pee on the bed, I love them dearly. I am willing to wager kids are like this, but 1,000,000 stronger.

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And if the relationship of the partners turns sour, then the kids are... still awesome?

Of course they are. What I am meaning to say about the relationship, is that having children with someone because that is 'just what you do' is a recipe for disaster and not fair to the kids. Making sure the couple is super-strong first raises the level of the couple, then when the kids are there they are secure in a loving household, and when the kids go off to college, the couple still has each other and are still madly in love.

[happy]

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And if the relationship of the partners turns sour, then the kids are... still awesome?

See. it is always woman who takes care of children, no? single moms, divorced moms... Many of those women find it hard to find another partner (but the divorced husband can always find a younger hottie to give birth to new children) because men think that they do not want to raise another man's generation. It is always woman who suffers after being mom.

[curiousgeorge01]

	Originally Posted by happy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	See. it is always woman who takes care of children, no? single moms, divorced moms... Many of those women find it hard to find another partner (but the divorced husband can always find a younger hottie to give birth to new children) because men think that they do not want to raise another man's generation. It is always woman who suffers after being mom.

Well blame evolution for that- men generally don't want to raise another man's children. I'm sure there are some men who are generous to do so.

What's your angst though?

[happy]

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well blame evolution for that- men generally don't want to raise another man's children. I'm sure there are some men who are generous to do so. What's your angst though?

I want to feel free. If I have any children, I know I will be bound with a man (father of the children) and it will be impossible to break that bond theoretically.

[Still Standing]

	Originally Posted by GreatAlias To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Umm, no, where did you get that idea? Maybe it would be like that if I and my partner didn't have a strong sense of commitment, but if that were the case I wouldn't want us to have kids.

Cool then.
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	And I am not sure what you'd call the boring and tedious part, the entire journey of watching them grow into adults is the adventure, not just taking them to Disneyland.

I was referring to things like reading/telling the same stories over and over again because they ask you to, going to the park every day and making small talk with other parents just because they're there, hosting make-believe tea parties and going "yum yum" in front of empty dessert plates, putting dollies to bed, having to limit yourself to very basic conversation that they can understand, etc. You don't just watch your kids grow, like flowers. You get involved with them too, and not always on your own time.

I may take flak for this, but stay with me. I have 2 cats (I am not saying children are pets), and before these 2 I had 2 (they passed away at an old age). Sure, changing the litter boxes wasn't 'fun', fixing their water bowl today wasn't fun, cleaning up barf isn't 'fun'. But, every day is an adventure with them. Watching one of them go from very shy to just fairly shy has been great. I'd never get rid of them for anything. Ever. Not because it is 'wrong' to dump them, but because they are part of my family and even when they pee on the bed, I love them dearly. I am willing to wager kids are like this, but 1,000,000 stronger.

Cats are fairly easy to care for because they're mostly independent. You can even leave them alone for several days with food, water and a litter box and they will manage. Children are needy and they remain fully dependent on you for a very long time. And it's not just about changing their diapers and spoonfeeding them. You also gotta figure out what your baby is trying to tell you when they're crying, throwing things or not eating, set limits and keep your ground when your toddler is making a scene at the supermarket, etc. Of course, most parents love their kids nonetheless, but I think many underestimate all the work involved when they decide to have them (this is probably a mind trick that ensures the survival of the species).