[Simurgh]

	Originally Posted by Equinox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Not really. The leaders would have no thought for their own power or authority, and would concern themselves only with upholding and enforcing whatever laws are necessary to force people to always do right and never do wrong.

Oh, and who is in charge of deciding what constitutes right and wrong? You?

	Everyone tells me that. I hate it when people tell me that. I don't need to get out more often and experience life; rather, other people need to stop "getting out" so often and be more serious about their lives, and consider the problems their selfishness causes for themselves and others. In other words: I'll do this as soon as you start engaging in extreme self-control :D

You have no clue how much self-restraint I have. I have exercised it in situations you cannot even imagine in your wildest dreams. And yes, the result often was that I was hurt, but in the end I did it because my morality did not allow me to do anything else. I at least know that I possess that quality. On the other hand someone who just admonishes others to live in a bubble because of fear and hatred of the unknown will never know if something is acted upon because of self-restraint or simple avoidance, because running away is easier than confronting reality.

It's sad that people can't just be good, stop being selfish, and start realizing there's more to life than what they want or the pursuit of their own "happiness." All I want is for people to be civil and upright, and they can't even do that. As for making a difference--what difference can I make? I can't single-handedly change human nature, which, of course, is precisely the thing that I'm advocating in this hypothetical regime.

Not everyone is selfish and many of us are actually civic minded and concerned with the welfare of others and we act accordingly. However, being socially engaged does not mean we want to be locked in a dungeon with you while listening to how evil we are for wanting a bit of pleasure now and again.

Of course you can make a difference. I do and I know it. Just be content with making a small difference in some people’s lives; in the end it adds up and you will have done your part in the betterment of humanity.

	Understand the importance of self-restraint and set aside "living a little" for a while before you condemn me.

Who condemned you? Here is that black or white dichotomy you seem to use with reckless abandon again. Lighten up, we are not out to get you and corrupt you.

	I mind that other people aren't celibate, and instead stop at nothing to satisfy their libido. It's disgusting, and people should be ashamed to give in to their primal instincts. That whole animalistic side of human nature ought to be eradicated.

I have yet to meet people who will stop at nothing to satisfy their libido. Talk to your parents about that first before you get on everyone else’s case. Seriously, what makes you think that you are judge and jury concerning the human condition? You are not qualified to do so since you have only looked at life from the outside. Participation is required.

[Bub166]

Of course it's not immoral. What's wrong with preventing birth? I mean, while I have nothing against abortion, I'd figure that a lot of people would see that as being worse than preventing the development of a child in the first place.

[Subgenius]

Well, since the abrahamic religions made it immoral and it was being used before their creation, I would have to say no.

[Anza]

I think I understand the reasoning of pro-lifers, but opposing birth control is beyond me. So no, it's not immoral, on the contrarary, having many children is in my opinion immoral when there are so many of us already.

[Auragasmic]

Depends on the individual.

Personally, I don't think there's one reason that is more moral or ethical when deciding to use birth control. Not wanting children is a perfectly acceptable reason to take the pill - and I only say this because of the recent efforts of fringe lunatics to police our behavior.

Even proponents of BC are hesitant to admit that they support use of the pill for sexual purposes. I say have as much sex as you want with as many partners as you want - but be SAFE about doing it. I'm tired of the Vatican trying to influence legislation.

---------- Post added 09-01-2012 at 01:27 PM ----------

And as for the abortion debate, it isn't that the woman's rights trump that of the ZEFs. It's that the ZEF hasn't the right AntiChoicers wish to extend to it: The right to use someone's body to survive.

That isn't a right. We ALL have the right to life but NEVER at the expense of another person's body.

(BTW: Use of person was intentional as to avoid the adj human & noun human infighting that so many Antis/Pros engage in on a regular basis)

[sunitaishot]

Morality is subjective.

That said, the purpose of sex in humans is ritualistic, socially-based, culturally and pleasure-based.

To presume that sex is ONLY for reproduction is surely folly. A cursory examination of sexuality historically and in contemporary societies shows a wide assortment of reasons for sexual conduct. Life is not so one size fits all as social conservatives seem to perceive it.

[cirexer]

Very moral.

[hgrail]

I see birth control as being a better moral choice than bringing a child into the world when:

1. One cannot afford to care for it
2. One does not really want a child

Some folks would argue that using birth control is a selfish act. I also see bringing a child into an already overpopulated and polluted world as a selfish act.

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by hgrail To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I see birth control as being a better moral choice than bringing a child into the world when: 1. One cannot afford to care for it 2. One does not really want a child Some folks would argue that using birth control is a selfish act. I also see bringing a child into an already overpopulated and polluted world as a selfish act.

This is a good starting point.

Population control is something that is in the process of being pushed on society. Instead of going up to people and putting guns to their heads and telling them not to have lots of kids they are doing things differently. They are making birth control options numerous and cheap. They are showing you via television and songs and other medias that being 16 and pregnant is something people should roll their eyes at as such women are obviously incompetent to be mothers. Monkey see monkey do. So smart people do smart things which happen to be what what George Carlin would call our owners want you to do. Get an education, get a job, pay taxes and die with no or very few heirs. Do what your peers do who do what you do and never question why you are doing it.

In 3rd world countries they do things like giving girls IUDs during routine checkups without telling them. At a hospital I know of recently a woman from central America was found to have one of these in her. They found it because she was having trouble conceiving and didn't know why.

We could get started on the anti-pregnancy hormone antigens in vaccines used in Africa but then you'd be overloaded with your view of the world shattering around you.

Who knows, you may recognize the man behind the curtain.

The world is full of empty places and full of places to grow good bountiful harvests. Its a matter of resource management.

[INTJRyan]

When religious fundamentalists start talking about how society should be, what we should be doing, and how I'm supposed to act within the framework of their belief system, I reach for my fucking gun.

[Storm]

Who is this mysterious "they" that rules the entire world from behind a curtain? One must have lots of children to prove them wrong? That'll teach'em! What?

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by INTJRyan To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	When religious fundamentalists start talking about how society should be, what we should be doing, and how I'm supposed to act within the framework of their belief system, I reach for my fucking gun.

I agree. This country has drifted far from its secular humanism atheist origins.

[INTJRyan]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I agree. This country has drifted far from its secular humanism atheist origins.

Oh fuck. Not the America is a christian nation garbage again. Are you ever factually correct? Usually lack of knowledge of the facts prevents individuals from speaking up since it tends to make them look foolish. I suppose I'm happy you're not linking medical cannabis and mexican cartels.
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[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by INTJRyan To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh fuck. Not the America is a christian nation garbage again. Are you ever factually correct? Usually lack of knowledge of the facts prevents individuals from speaking up since it tends to make them look foolish.

“It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.”
- George Washington

Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of Thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in Thy fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy son, Jesus Christ.
- George Washington, Prayer

The rights of the colonists as Christians…may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.
- Samuel Adams

“The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.”
- United States Congress 1782

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.
- John Adams

…that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ and that the whole Earth may be filled with his glory.
- John Hancock, as Governor of Massachusetts 1791

In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed … No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.
- Noah Webster, Preface Noah Webster Dictionary, 1828

“Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth…”
- US Constitution, Before signature text declaring our Christian Nation

Note: “Year of our Lord” means Jesus Christ is Lord of the USA. (Founding fathers didn’t use year of the Lord)

	I suppose I'm happy you're not linking medical cannabis and mexican cartels. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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[Kyros]

Birth control is definitely immoral,I'll tell you what's moral:Sex only for procreation.All the rest is like crying over spilt jing.

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[mieu]

Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

“It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.” - George Washington Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of Thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in Thy fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy son, Jesus Christ. - George Washington, Prayer The rights of the colonists as Christians…may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament. - Samuel Adams “The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.” - United States Congress 1782 The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God. - John Adams …that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ and that the whole Earth may be filled with his glory. - John Hancock, as Governor of Massachusetts 1791 In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed … No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people. - Noah Webster, Preface Noah Webster Dictionary, 1828 “Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth…” - US Constitution, Before signature text declaring our Christian Nation Note: “Year of our Lord” means Jesus Christ is Lord of the USA. (Founding fathers didn’t use year of the Lord)

I don't remember anyone voting for him. Sounds like a despot to me.

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by mieu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't remember anyone voting for him. Sounds like a despot to me.

Which one?

[illustral]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[list of cherry-picked quotes]

You had to know this was coming.

Originally Posted by infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth

Such a view of American history is completely contrary to known facts. The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists. Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. The supreme God of the Deists removed himself entirely from the universe after creating it. They believed that he assumed no control over it, exerted no influence on natural phenomena, and gave no supernatural revelation to man. A necessary consequence of these beliefs was a rejection of many doctrines central to the Christian religion. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.

Originally Posted by freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers

If the U.S. was founded on the Christian religion, the Constitution would clearly say so--but it does not. Nowhere does the Constitution say: "The United States is a Christian Nation", or anything even close to that. In fact, the words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, Creator, Divine, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not even once. Nowhere in the Constitution is religion mentioned, except in exclusionary terms. When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had.

	Originally Posted by Treaty of Tripoli
	The 1796 Treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" (see the image on the right). This was not an idle statement meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.

Originally Posted by freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers

Yes, there were Christian men among the Founders. Just as Congress removed Thomas Jefferson's words that condemned the practice of slavery in the colonies, they also altered his wording regarding equal rights. His original wording is here in blue italics: "All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable." Congress changed that phrase, increasing its religious overtones: "All men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights." But we are not governed by the Declaration of Independence-- it is a historical document, not a constitutional one.

	Originally Posted by James Madison
	Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.

	Originally Posted by James Madison
	The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.

Originally Posted by James Madison

Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

	Originally Posted by John Adams
	I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!

	Originally Posted by John Adams
	The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.

	Originally Posted by John Adams
	God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world.

	Originally Posted by John Adams
	Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?

	Originally Posted by John Adams
	. . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.

	Originally Posted by John Adams
	This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.

	Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
	The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs.

Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors.

Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson

But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it.

Originally Posted by George Washington

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.

	Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin
	Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.

	Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin
	The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.

	Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin
	I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them.

	Originally Posted by Thomas Paine
	Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

	Originally Posted by Thomas Paine
	What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith.

	Originally Posted by Thomas Paine
	I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

	Originally Posted by Thomas Paine
	All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

	Originally Posted by Thomas Paine
	The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion.

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by illustral To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You had to know this was coming.

People who bent the knee to God our founding fathers were. They may have disliked religion and all its trappings but they acknowledged God and most seemed pious to the Christian God.

[Vogon Poet]

Technically, yes, with one exception I will cover at the end. If you are to take a position on this question then ipso facto you are proclaimimng that morality does exist, and therefore that "right" and "wrong" do exist; and furthermore that purpose itself does exist.

Given that life has purpose to any who answer the question, survival is a necessary component of every purpose. "Good" is every action which has a greater net positive value for "good" than for "bad." Casual sex does not have a greater net value of "good" than "bad" because statistically monogamous relationships have a better survival rate, fewer disease instances, better offspring outcomes, and better social stability. Sex without the purpose of starting a family is profanation if that is possible; and to people who do not believe in morality either answer is a complex question fallacy.

Now the caveat: Birth control is not immoral when medically necessitated to mitigate a risk of birth defect. This applies to people with a genetic, ailment, or age-related risk factor to conception. Since sex itself is not immoral - in fact it is immoral to withhold it from your spouse, birth control can have a greater net positive value.

[Seablue]

	Originally Posted by Vogon Poet To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	...

Such huge, huge leaps made to seem like they're only tiny logical steps...

[Shinganist]

I see more good coming from the use of birth control than not using birth control. Immoral? Nah.

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by Subgenius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well, since the abrahamic religions made it immoral and it was being used before their creation, I would have to say no.

Please cite a reference for this claim of prehistoric abortion.

---------- Post added 10-30-2012 at 05:32 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Shinganist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I see more good coming from the use of birth control than not using birth control. Immoral? Nah.

If the woman who was to cure cancer was aborted you would not know it.

[Vogon Poet]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Please cite a reference for this claim of prehistoric abortion. If the woman who was to cure cancer was aborted you would not know it.

I don't see birth control the same as abortion personally. It is not a natural course that sex will produce a fertilized egg in the same way that it was the natural course for a fertilized egg to become Eddie Murphy, who "should have been" aborted by all conventional wisdom.

[Moxiie]

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Of course birth control isn't immoral, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Of course there are a cadre of folk on the religious right who'd like me to think that......

*takes 5 birth control pills just because she can*