[larkin]

Originally Posted by ischuldt To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No, it's incredibly easy to just want to help everyone. Which is why I said liberals occupy the very low end of the intelligence scale generally. Then I said it's a little bit harder to think just a hair beyond that about the immediate consequences. Which is why I conservatives occupy the median intelligence range, but then when you think even harder and look deeper into the problem you realize that just because the immediate consequences don't directly benefit you that doesn't mean that helping others doesn't ultimately benefit you. It's just a lot harder to see how that works which is why liberals also occupy the very high end of the intelligence scale.

And sometimes there's a fourth, even deeper level, and that one is the same as the top surface one. Like with pie.

Honestly, there is no more correlation between political party and intelligence than there is between personality type and the same.

There are always handy explanations or justifications for this kind of thinking - to be fair, including some of the ones I offered - because intelligence encompasses an incredibly broad spectrum of traits. And it's easy to forget for every one theory that is given (liberals are smarter because they're open to a broader range of ideas, for example) there's another to counter it (conservatives are smarter because they're naturally more skeptical of new ideas.) Both contradictory theories are accepted as reasonable evidence of "intelligence." Which they might be - but they're not "proof" of it, as if such a thing existed. (And no, IQ is not proof of "intelligence," either.)

[ischuldt]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Honestly, there is no more correlation between political party and intelligence than there is between personality type and the same.

Then why is it that there are almost 0 ultra conservatives on this forum? Every time someone puts a poll on this forum full of masterminds it comes out pretty much exactly the same way. The vast majority of highly intelligent intjs support left leaning libertarian political ideas. There are some stragglers that are very liberal, and some that are more libertarian, but there are almost no socialists, or straight party line republicans on here at all.

You could probably explain some of that by abnormal concentrations of age differences on this site, but I'm willing to bet if you polled a wide array of INTJs left leaning libertarianism would win hands down.

[TheStranger]

I know that was only part of the study, but the findings of those with high blood levels tending to give conservative answers doesn't in itself imply anything. Perhaps it simply meant that their inhibitions were lowered, and that they were not anxious in stating their opinions. It's relatively easy to see an implication favorable to one's viewpoint, especially if the findings are vague enough.

[Ray9]

Originally Posted by ischuldt To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Then why is it that there are almost 0 ultra conservatives on this forum? Every time someone puts a poll on this forum full of masterminds it comes out pretty much exactly the same way. The vast majority of highly intelligent intjs support left leaning libertarian political ideas. There are some stragglers that are very liberal, and some that are more libertarian, but there are almost no socialists, or straight party line republicans on here at all. You could probably explain some of that by abnormal concentrations of age differences on this site, but I'm willing to bet if you polled a wide array of INTJs left leaning libertarianism would win hands down.

Poor soul, let me enlighten you:

The conservative demographic of which you speak is busy producing things that are worthwhile in this world and providing the largess that your ilk depends upon to have the time to surf and expound on forums such as this one. Conservatives like me tend to work their way up from the bottom in this world and succeed through hard work and results-oriented performance. My intelligence has been measured and I seriously doubt that you or your brethren in the left-leaning libertarian club occupy real estate in the same neighborhood on the bell curve.

[zibber]

Remember, kids:

When you think socialist,

you probably have social-democratic in mind.

I know, I know; we can't all read history books. We lefties and our reading!

[annaelizabeth]

I have to say in terms of low level thinking, I am constantly amazed by how many people vote Republican against their own best interests. If they actually studied the policies and how they would affect them, only a small percentage of Americans would vote Republican. Those being the wealthy and possibly business owners looking for tax breaks. Even my grandmother votes Republican against her own interests. When I asked her why, she said because my grandfather voted Republican. WTF? That's a reason? How about using your own brain? How many southern repubs collect food stamps, va benefits, disability, use medicare, etc....and would probably actually vote for Paul Ryan's budget? It's like there is nothing going on upstairs. They've just checked out on the thought of actually looking at the issues. Sorry but that's how I see it.

[JTG]

	Originally Posted by Doppelbock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Actually intelligence is more strongly correlated to libertarianism than to liberalism. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[hide=From your article]The poll shows that people with very high intelligence have a strong preference for minimal restrictions on such activities as gambling (56%), prostitution (60%), pornography (77%), and use of alcohol (66%), tobacco (66%), and marijuana (71%). A clear preference (80%) was shown for legalization of illicit drugs, with some controls over use, as is currently the case with alcohol and tobacco.

The current income tax was ranked last among five methods of taxation. A national sales tax was ranked first, followed by a flat tax, a value-added tax, and a simplified version of the present tax system.

Respondents expressed a desire for minimum subsidies in most commercial and personal areas, supporting moderate to generous funding only in basic scientific and medical research.

A public health care system that provides for the poor and the elderly was favored by a majority ranging from 67% to 74%, and doctor-assisted suicide was found acceptable by 76% of the respondents. An overwhelming 95% agreed that abortion should be legally available, with 49% opposing government restrictions of any kind.[/hide]Paragraphs 1, 3, and 4 deal with things Democrats would likely support and which Republicans would likely oppose.

The only thing remotely libertarian (that wouldn't also coincide with Democrat) is the support of a flat tax or national sales tax, but that doesn't correlate with intelligence so much as with money. People want systems which tax them less, and flat taxes fit the bill if you're rich, since they're functionally regressive.

Plus, the poll itself doesn't seem like the most scientific thing, at least as concerns the documentation in the press release.

Also, in real political terms (not the US misappropriations thereof) liberalism is libertarianism.

[Electric Head]

Originally Posted by ischuldt To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Then why is it that there are almost 0 ultra conservatives on this forum? Every time someone puts a poll on this forum full of masterminds it comes out pretty much exactly the same way. The vast majority of highly intelligent intjs support left leaning libertarian political ideas. There are some stragglers that are very liberal, and some that are more libertarian, but there are almost no socialists, or straight party line republicans on here at all. You could probably explain some of that by abnormal concentrations of age differences on this site, but I'm willing to bet if you polled a wide array of INTJs left leaning libertarianism would win hands down.

I can't say I agree. Mainstream US left as far as politicians go is like center right on the world scale. Politicalcompass.org now ranks Obama quite solidly to the right & solidly to the authoritarian end of the spectrum though as opposed to the libertarian left end. Only a small handful of democrats would still qualify as libertarian left. Democrats like Sanders & Kucinich, & independents like Nader are Libertarian left. Never the less I'm encouraged by some polls I've seen that show the majority of Americans to have left-libertarian views on a number of issues, even if that's not reflected in the governments that they elect.

I'm in Canada, & Obama's policies seem to me to match up most closely with those of our Conservative party... all though his rhetoric may often be trying to appeal to those on the left.

I think that maybe slightly more people here on ythis forum are economically right wing than are left from what Ive seen. There are a lot more socially libertarian/liberal people here than Socially Conservative/authoritarian people though.

---------- Post added 04-15-2012 at 02:12 AM ----------

I share your perception of right wing thinking being short term, insular, & small scale though. It's seems to me that with right wingers in the drivers seat in in so many places around the world implementing reform after reform, moving the political system that much more to the right, where we are headed is a world that's very inhospitable to life. Inhospitable both in terms of the environment not being able to support life & in terms of growing wealth inequality causing more people to lose their freedom as they become financially trapped servants of the elite class.

[larkin]

Originally Posted by ischuldt To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Then why is it that there are almost 0 ultra conservatives on this forum? Every time someone puts a poll on this forum full of masterminds it comes out pretty much exactly the same way. The vast majority of highly intelligent intjs support left leaning libertarian political ideas. There are some stragglers that are very liberal, and some that are more libertarian, but there are almost no socialists, or straight party line republicans on here at all.

Good lord. First you're using polls on teh internets (TM) to support your reasoning. Second, your reporting on the polls themselves is wrong: a.) I don't think how you've represented the actual answers is accurate, b.) the self-reported results in no way represent people's actual views, only their aspirational ones, and c.) even then, only tangentially, especially given variations in what people claim to be liberal and conservative. Third, there's lots of non-INTJs on this forum. Fourth, even among the people who claim to be INTJs there's probably significant mistyping.

In short: don't trust polls on teh internets to, you know, confirm your bias.

I might be persuaded that there's a higher correlation between INTJs and libertarianism than there is between other types and libertarianism, but asserting that as true still requires actual evidence - more than my general perception of these threads, for example.

Without these things, hard to separate your assertions from posts like this:

Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The conservative demographic of which you speak is busy producing things that are worthwhile in this world and providing the largess that your ilk depends upon to have the time to surf and expound on forums such as this one. Conservatives like me tend to work their way up from the bottom in this world and succeed through hard work and results-oriented performance. My intelligence has been measured and I seriously doubt that you or your brethren in the left-leaning libertarian club occupy real estate in the same neighborhood on the bell curve.

Although admittedly, yours had at least a veneer of plausibility about them.

[ischuldt]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I might be persuaded that there's a higher correlation between INTJs and libertarianism than there is between other types and libertarianism, but asserting that as true still requires actual evidence - more than my general perception of these threads, for example. Without these things, hard to separate your assertions from posts like this:

I apologize for not being a scientist or owning a polling agency that can go out in to the world do incredibly accurate data collection on the subject, but you made the the assertion that there is no correlation between intelligence, type, and political views, and while the evidence to the contrary I listed might not be without flaw it's better than the no evidence whatsoever you gave to believe it's not true.

As you said you "might be persuaded" which leads me to believe even you think there is probably some correlation and I'm willing to bet if you did the actual study you'd find it's pretty conclusive actually.

In fact early in this thread another user posted a poll of members of a mensa type club and found that overwhelmingly they supported left leaning libertarian type ideas.

---------- Post added 04-16-2012 at 06:20 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Conservatives like me tend to work their way up from the bottom in this world and succeed through hard work and results-oriented performance. My intelligence has been measured and I seriously doubt that you or your brethren in the left-leaning libertarian club occupy real estate in the same neighborhood on the bell curve.

Really??? You want to start a pissing match on the internet huh? Ok, I suppose I'll bite for one round. Born to a mill worker and a veteran for a father and a hair dresser for a mother. Tough to get much closer to the bottom than that. Currently a software developer and made more money my first year out of college than both parent combined in any one year of their lives. I haven't bothered to take the official mensa test because I'm not narcissistic enough to need the validation.

[larkin]

Originally Posted by ischuldt To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I apologize for not being a scientist or owning a polling agency that can go out in to the world do incredibly accurate data collection on the subject, but you made the the assertion that there is no correlation between intelligence, type, and political views, and while the evidence to the contrary I listed might not be without flaw it's better than the no evidence whatsoever you gave to believe it's not true.

You're the one with the hypothesis, you need to provide evidence. I don't need to provide any to doubt it. In fact, it's required; that's exactly what critical thinking is.

	Originally Posted by ischuldt To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As you said you "might be persuaded" which leads me to believe even you think there is probably some correlation and I'm willing to bet if you did the actual study you'd find it's pretty conclusive actually.

Yeah, I could imagine correlation between INTJs and libertarianism. Independence is a core value of both the type and the political philosophy. But here's the thing - things I *think might* be true? Not necessarily the same as things that are true, as much as I'd like to believe otherwise.

Also, very much not the same as saying "intelligence" is correlated with any other political philosophy or type. As I've said, I think intelligence is far too broad a category for that. Even reducing it to IQ - which as I also said, does not reflect all of the traits that encompass most people's perception of intelligence - it's too broad a category. There certainly hasn't been any correlation established yet, and as your link in the OP shows, that's not because of lack of effort.

[AnotherAvatar]

The reality is that an INTJ isn't going to fall for soundbites, political ideologies, who has the nicest hair etc.

So if you were to poll me. I tend to lean conservative...NOT republican. Conservative means you don't want the Patriot Act, you don't want to go to war, you don't bail out the big biz..

First off everyone in here needs to understand that liberalism and conservatism have nothing to do with political party affiliation, to the contrary of what Rush Limbaugh has been selling all of you.

So the idea that being a libertarian is leftist is incorrect, as that political system is about the least amount of government...where as the Bush administration did the biggest buildup in US history of government programs and military.

How do I know this?...I have a degree in Political science.

[INTJRyan]

Originally Posted by AnotherAvatar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The reality is that an INTJ isn't going to fall for soundbites, political ideologies, who has the nicest hair etc. So if you were to poll me. I tend to lean conservative...NOT republican. Conservative means you don't want the Patriot Act, you don't want to go to war, you don't bail out the big biz.. First off everyone in here needs to understand that liberalism and conservatism have nothing to do with political party affiliation, to the contrary of what Rush Limbaugh has been selling all of you. So the idea that being a libertarian is leftist is incorrect, as that political system is about the least amount of government...where as the Bush administration did the biggest buildup in US history of government programs and military. How do I know this?...I have a degree in Political science.

Ahhh. The 'ol Bush II wasn't conservative argument. Truly, conservatives are a people without a party. And a degree to boot; clearly authoritative.

[Maybe to Dream]

	Originally Posted by INTJRyan To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ahhh. The 'ol Bush II wasn't conservative argument. Truly, conservatives are a people without a party. And a degree to boot; clearly authoritative.

...Actually that poster's right.

[Haumea]

	but then when you think even harder and look deeper into the problem you realize that just because the immediate consequences don't directly benefit you that doesn't mean that helping others doesn't ultimately benefit you.

That presumes you have the correct solutions.

Now, unless you want to posit that such marvels as The Great Society (resulting in the annihilation of the black family, e.g.) weren't dismal failures, you can plainly recognize that putatively smart people can come up with disastrously dumb solutions.

It doesn't take great intelligence to say we're going to help people so everyone benefits. It takes great intelligence to recognize unintended consequences of your "help."

[INTJRyan]

	Originally Posted by Maybe to Dream To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	...Actually that poster's right.

Keep telling yourself that, "compassionate conservative." You must be the true conservative Scotsman.

[larkin]

Originally Posted by Haumea To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

That presumes you have the correct solutions. Now, unless you want to posit that such marvels as The Great Society (resulting in the annihilation of the black family, e.g.) weren't dismal failures, you can plainly recognize that putatively smart people can come up with disastrously dumb solutions. It doesn't take great intelligence to say we're going to help people so everyone benefits. It takes great intelligence to recognize unintended consequences of your "help."

Yes, yes, the "unintended consequences" (of liberal policies) conservatives are so keenly aware of, while liberals aren't. Meanwhile, "unintended" - or better phrased, totally ignored - consequences of doing nothing? Nah, don't bother with those. Better to fiddle while Rome burns.

Plus, suggesting "Great Society" (I suppose you mean food stamps? Headstart? Civil Rights Act? You're certainly not talking about amendments to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, and I don't think you're talking about desegregation - unless we really are back to arguing for segregating the schools) is responsible for the "annihilation of the black family" is not just unsupported, it's beyond ludicrous. Is here where you rail against the evils of welfare (which existed before the Great Society, but that phrase has become an all-encompassing boogeyman to people who have no idea what it really consisted of), women working out of the home, dinner not being on the table, and the culture of entitlement among kids living below the poverty level? Because that's probably exactly what people mean when they refer to "low-effort" thinking.

Can't you just go back to blaming feminism like you normally do?