[stephanystp]

I am a typical INTJ. Love to research, love to think. I'm currently changing careers from Sales to Business Analysis because I crave the intellectual challenge, and sometimes I am not so great with people. In recent years I have noticed that I am very quick to judge someone, especially if I feel they don't live up to my standards (sounds snooty, and I try to catch myself and stop, but sometimes it's hard). The few friends that I do have including my husband have told me that I need to be more tactful, and tend to come across as insensitive a lot. I can be critical too. This isn't just from being an INTJ, my parents are very critical people.

I can also be a bad listener. When someone is talking, my mind races to a conclusion before they have finished speaking, and I end up interrupting them or coming across very preachy. I have to stop giving advice when people aren't asking for it. If I can relate to someone, I come off sounding like a "know-it-all". I know I need to pause and listen before I speak, but it's challenging when my mind is thinking so fast. I've been practicing parroting the people I talk to (not out loud, but in my mind) so that it keeps me completely focused on what they are saying, then pausing before I respond. Definitely need more practice with this though.

Has anyone experienced this and how did you overcome it? I don't want to grow old with no friends and most jobs require you to have strong people skills.

[Muse]

First off, having lots of friends doesn't always mean having good people skills. Some of them are actually horrible with people and close relationships.

Some simple advice: figure out what people tend to like, and what they don't like.

[Bronk]

Use your critical thinking skills to understand what motivates people to hold certain opinions. For me, this is a challenge I enjoy. Once I understand why they think a certain way, it makes it easier to formulate a method for dealing with them.

[Distance]

If you consider cognitive function order, this would be typical INTJ behaviour.

1. Ni is an internal function which assumes.
2. Te is about externalising the Ni assumptions. It's a control mechanism and a decision maker.
3. Fi is about comparison to internal values and is a decision maker, based on match or not to your internal values.
4. Se is an inferior external perceiving function and is the one that can help you with people skills.

In order to help with your people skills, see if you can suppress the noisy aspects of your two decision making functions of Te and Fi, using Ni-Se to simply perceive, instead of conclude which is your nature.

[Muse]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In order to help with your people skills, see if you can suppress the noisy aspects of your two decision making functions of Te and Fi, using Ni-Se to simply perceive, instead of conclude which is your nature.

I like this. Being open minded about who people can be and what they might be about can help a lot.

[searches89]

You're off to a great start already, by recognizing things in yourself that you can improve on. I have INTJ friends that display the traits you mentioned above, but don't realize it about themselves. So you're already making progress by recognizing/demonstrating things you want to improve

One thing I find that helps as an INTJ is being open minded, receptive to hearing different things/opinions, and open to try new experiences/open to receiving different types of people, etc

[Tyrathca]

With the issue of giving advice where it's not asked for, if you have trouble not interfering/helping an alternative to simply telling them is directed questions. Ask them questions where you know what they will answer and this answer is in line with the theme of your conclusion. Repetition and skill with this can lead people to your conclusion while letting them think it was their idea in the first place. Tedious yes and requires practice but I find the ideas stick in their mind better and generally avoids the impression of being preachy or putting your opinion where its not wanted.

[Dancingqueen]

Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If you consider cognitive function order, this would be typical INTJ behaviour. Ni is an internal function which assumes. Te is about externalising the Ni assumptions. It's a control mechanism and a decision maker. Fi is about comparison to internal values and is a decision maker, based on match or not to your internal values. Se is an inferior external perceiving function and is the one that can help you with people skills. In order to help with your people skills, see if you can suppress the noisy aspects of your two decision making functions of Te and Fi, using Ni-Se to simply perceive, instead of conclude which is your nature.

This is how I handled my socialization problem. I learned to follow other's train of thought without trying to draw quick conclusions. I didn't do it consciously but now that I read your description, it's exactly what I did. I found that an open mind is the key to good relations with others. Ni+Se is exactly what I'm doing.

[stephanystp]

That's a great idea Bronk. I'm going to try that.

---------- Post added 04-16-2012 at 12:07 PM ----------

Thanks Distance. I like your reply.

---------- Post added 04-16-2012 at 12:17 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Tyrathca To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

With the issue of giving advice where it's not asked for, if you have trouble not interfering/helping an alternative to simply telling them is directed questions. Ask them questions where you know what they will answer and this answer is in line with the theme of your conclusion. Repetition and skill with this can lead people to your conclusion while letting them think it was their idea in the first place. Tedious yes and requires practice but I find the ideas stick in their mind better and generally avoids the impression of being preachy or putting your opinion where its not wanted.

I'm going to have to try this method.
I can recall a conversation where a long-time friend of mine was talking to me about her fiance(14 yrs. her junior) and she was mad because he wasn't helping her around the house and doesn't treat her with respect. I suggested she talk to him about how she felt and she said she's tried and he won't change his ways. So I told her that she has two choices, stay and put up with it or break up with him and move on. And she got mad at me and said that I didn't understand and that things aren't so black and white.

Why are some people so overly emotional? I had no idea what I said wrong, but she hasn't called me in over a month.

[LadySpock]

Stephany,

I recommend doing 2 things:
1) Read
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
by Dale Carnegie
2) Watch the people who are good with social interactions & mimic what they do until it becomes second nature. (Approach this like eating a sandwich - You'll have to start off small...select a few of the behaviors that you are comfortable with and then gradually take on new behaviors.)

---------- Post added 04-16-2012 at 08:27 AM ----------

Most people react to the INTJ probelm solving in a very hostile way.

This is something every INTJ needs to understand but often fails to - Most people do NOT want their problems solved, they want to be listened to and to have their POV acknowledged (& in some cases confirmed.) This is very annoying to INTJs....most of us find talking just for the sake of talking to be a huge waste of time.

But if you're paying attention, you'll see that THE most popular / well liked people are not the ones who offer unsolicited advice. The most popular / well like people are the ones who make other people feel special and the ones who are seen as a shoulder to lean on and someone who accepts people for what they are.

Tyrathca's advice is simply an indirect way to do what an INTJ does naturally (try to get other people into problem solving mode when they do NOT want to be.) I would advise again doing this because people will still stop calling you - it will just take them a little longer and you'll be more exhausted. If you conversationally guide them to a solution to their problem as Tyrathca suggested, they'll have to hide from you when they fail to take any action.

They will feel judged becuase you will be judging them...they "know" the right move to make becuase you conversationally led them to it - so where's the action to back up the talk you had with them?

Same result - no friends.

---------- Post added 04-16-2012 at 08:33 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In order to help with your people skills, see if you can suppress the noisy aspects of your two decision making functions of Te and Fi, using Ni-Se to simply perceive, instead of conclude which is your nature.

Yes!

[stephanystp]

Originally Posted by LadySpock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Stephany, I recommend doing 2 things: 1) Read To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. by Dale Carnegie 2) Watch the people who are good with social interactions & mimic what they do until it becomes second nature. (Approach this like eating a sandwich - You'll have to start off small...select a few of the behaviors that you are comfortable with and then gradually take on new behaviors.) ---------- Post added 04-16-2012 at 08:27 AM ---------- Most people react to the INTJ probelm solving in a very hostile way. This is something every INTJ needs to understand but often fails to - Most people do NOT want their problems solved, they want to be listened to and to have their POV acknowledged (& in some cases confirmed.) This is very annoying to INTJs....most of us find talking just for the sake of talking to be a huge waste of time. But if you're paying attention, you'll see that THE most popular / well liked people are not the ones who offer unsolicited advice. The most popular / well like people are the ones who make other people feel special and the ones who are seen as a shoulder to lean on and someone who accepts people for what they are. Tyrathca's advice is simply an indirect way to do what an INTJ does naturally (try to get other people into problem solving mode when they do NOT want to be.) I would advise again doing this because people will still stop calling you - it will just take them a little longer and you'll be more exhausted. If you conversationally guide them to a solution to their problem as Tyrathca suggested, they'll have to hide from you when they fail to take any action. They will feel judged becuase you will be judging them...they "know" the right move to make becuase you conversationally led them to it - so where's the action to back up the talk you had with them? Same result - no friends. ---------- Post added 04-16-2012 at 08:33 AM ---------- Yes!

Mmmm that's a good point. About the conversation I mentioned above with my friend- I am sure she is still with her fiance and miserable, but is afraid to be alone. She will probably end up marrying him hoping things will get better- recipe for disaster. Frankly, I'm getting tired of having the same conversation with her about different guys in her life. She's definitely the opposite of INTJ and I have no idea how we've stayed friends for so long.

Thanks for your help.

[mllebrie]

Get a job.

I'm serious. I was absolutely terrified of people when I got my first job. I remember waiting on my first customer (it was a Dairy Queen) as a rather traumatic experience. By the end of the season, I was an old pro with people--so much more comfortable interacting with customers and complete strangers. And that confidence spilled over into other aspects of my life.

[deconspire]

	Originally Posted by mllebrie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Get a job. I'm serious. I was absolutely terrified of people when I got my first job. I remember waiting on my first customer (it was a Dairy Queen) as a rather traumatic experience. By the end of the season, I was an old pro with people--so much more comfortable interacting with customers and complete strangers. And that confidence spilled over into other aspects of my life.

Exact. Same. Experience. Got a job at a gas station and was terrified of dealing with people face-to-face all day. After a few months though I was fucking pro, I could handle anything. A service job or whatever where you have to deal with people is seriously the best way to immerse yourself into developing your people skills.

[stephanystp]

	Originally Posted by mllebrie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Get a job. I'm serious. I was absolutely terrified of people when I got my first job. I remember waiting on my first customer (it was a Dairy Queen) as a rather traumatic experience. By the end of the season, I was an old pro with people--so much more comfortable interacting with customers and complete strangers. And that confidence spilled over into other aspects of my life.

The strange thing is that I'm an outgoing INTJ. I have no problem turning the social part on like a switch (probably learned that from working in sales), or for professional relationships. It's when I start getting to know someone deeply, like a boyfriend (I'm still amazed how I'm married) or female friend, or family member. I guess it's those relationships where I'm most comfortable and let my true self show.

[Xanthippe]

Maybe you could turn your intuition, which is currently causing you to leap to conclusions and solving problems, to the job of figuring out what other people want from a conversation. It's surprisingly satisfying to follow three threads of a conversation at once: what people are saying, what they mean, and what they want from you.

Some people really do just want confirmation of their own opinions, rather than an argument or a solution. Balancing your real thoughts with what they want to hear is difficult. Many threads on this forum exemplify this; even INTJs sometimes seek justification and confirmation. Usually others will respond with criticism or solutions, and, of course, the original poster frequently becomes uncomfortable or defensive.

In the "real" world, it's all too easy for introverted rational types to see this sort of conversation as pointless - the best thing for us to do is to realise that good relations with other people are just as useful as good logic, and that every conversation is a means to that end.

I learned to do this by taking some theatre classes. I don't know if that's an option for you, but it sure helped me understand people and how to relate to them. The parroting sounds very much like some of the exercises we used to do there. If you can work out the subtext of what people are saying and parrot that as well, that will be even more useful.

ETA: Since you say you do open up to people you know deeply, maybe it would help to try opening up sooner to strangers you'll never see again. If you travel, you'll probably never see that person next to you on the flight again, so you're safe to reveal quite a lot about your life and interests. I've found that this habit has made it easier to develop warm relationships with people I do see regularly.

[stephanystp]

Originally Posted by Xanthippe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Maybe you could turn your intuition, which is currently causing you to leap to conclusions and solving problems, to the job of figuring out what other people want from a conversation. It's surprisingly satisfying to follow three threads of a conversation at once: what people are saying, what they mean, and what they want from you. Some people really do just want confirmation of their own opinions, rather than an argument or a solution. Balancing your real thoughts with what they want to hear is difficult. Many threads on this forum exemplify this; even INTJs sometimes seek justification and confirmation. Usually others will respond with criticism or solutions, and, of course, the original poster frequently becomes uncomfortable or defensive. In the "real" world, it's all too easy for introverted rational types to see this sort of conversation as pointless - the best thing for us to do is to realise that good relations with other people are just as useful as good logic, and that every conversation is a means to that end. I learned to do this by taking some theatre classes. I don't know if that's an option for you, but it sure helped me understand people and how to relate to them. The parroting sounds very much like some of the exercises we used to do there. If you can work out the subtext of what people are saying and parrot that as well, that will be even more useful. ETA: Since you say you do open up to people you know deeply, maybe it would help to try opening up sooner to strangers you'll never see again. If you travel, you'll probably never see that person next to you on the flight again, so you're safe to reveal quite a lot about your life and interests. I've found that this habit has made it easier to develop warm relationships with people I do see regularly.

Awesome advice. I esp. like the idea of trying to figure out what they really want from a conversation. It's hard for me to understand why someone would want someone else to just listen to them. Even though I want that sometimes too. It can really suck being an INTJ sometimes. I have to remember what you said about how every conversation is a means to an end.

[Bronk]

	Originally Posted by stephanystp To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Awesome advice. I esp. like the idea of trying to figure out what they really want from a conversation. It's hard for me to understand why someone would want someone else to just listen to them. Even though I want that sometimes too. It can really suck being an INTJ sometimes. I have to remember what you said about how every conversation is a means to an end.

Everyone seeks some form of validation. For most people this means external validation, i.e. affirmation from others. For INTJs, it's usually internal validation that matters, such as knowing that they accomplished a task. But we're all human and we all desire this validation.

As an INTJ you are almost ideally positioned to "solve" other people (and what type of validation they are seeking) because you have the ability to understand that someone feels a certain way. You may not understand why they feel that way, but you are capable of analyzing what you observe and drawing conclusions.

[Corvusalba]

INTJ and recognize a lot of shared comments in the posts.
I spent a long time in a very people oriented environment working with developmental group work with young people.

Looking back how did I survive.

- Used my dominant function Ni to perceive and understand the deeper intentions behind peoples behavior and their human needs and motivation.
- Controlled my Te need to organize people and problem solve.
- Developed my beliefs and values to include people as important.
-Developed sensory acuity, Se, to pick up on peoples emotional state.

I have used a lot of models as well as the MBTI including, Transactional Analysis. Operant conditioning etc. The most useful and pragmatic his been NLP. Neuro linguistic programming.
You will find it powerful stuff for building rapport and influence.

[stephanystp]

Originally Posted by Corvusalba To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

INTJ and recognize a lot of shared comments in the posts. I spent a long time in a very people oriented environment working with developmental group work with young people. Looking back how did I survive. - Used my dominant function Ni to perceive and understand the deeper intentions behind peoples behavior and their human needs and motivation. - Controlled my Te need to organize people and problem solve. - Developed my beliefs and values to include people as important. -Developed sensory acuity, Se, to pick up on peoples emotional state. I have used a lot of models as well as the MBTI including, Transactional Analysis. Operant conditioning etc. The most useful and pragmatic his been NLP. Neuro linguistic programming. You will find it powerful stuff for building rapport and influence.

Thanks Corvusalba for telling me about NLP. I looked it up and find it fascinating! I've already ordered a few books from Amazon and can't wait to dive into them.

[LadySpock]

Stephany,

I am not really seeing that you actually comprehend the two very basic points that certain people have repeated to you here. I see you looking at this as finding different ways to problem solve for the people in your life.

I see you looking for THE most scientific bullshit you can find to prove that other people are somehow defective so you can continue doing what you're doing but just in a more clever way - or so you think. (I say that because the "feelers" will smell that INTJ crap from a mile away.) I am saying this because you went for the "fascinating" books on NLP rather than the world renowned and PROVEN book by Carnegie.

You will only continue to drive people away from you.

Once again, here are the 2 basic points:

1) Most people are literally REPULSED by the INTJ tendency to solve problems. Some are also angered by it.

2) Most people want to have their feelings & perceptions acknowledged, and - in some cases - confirmed.

If you want more people in your life, you will have to learn to turn that shit on and off at will.

Good luck.

[Nordman]

LadySpock is right on target. Most people hate having their misconceptions about themselves challenged. They find even a hint of a question in that direction to be an insult, and react accordingly.

The thing is that people such as me, and as our thread starter, see it as a kindness. Using our gift for problem solving to help the people we like see themselves more clearly.

Basically you have a choice. Adapt, and accept the frustration of having close relations with whom you feel that you cannot be honest. Or befriend the few exceptions, the ones that value the kind of criticism people such as us is probe to deliver. They do exist, you see.

[BBC]

Remember to smile at people and give away something about yourself to make a connection.

[stephanystp]

Originally Posted by LadySpock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Stephany, I am not really seeing that you actually comprehend the two very basic points that certain people have repeated to you here. I see you looking at this as finding different ways to problem solve for the people in your life. I see you looking for THE most scientific bullshit you can find to prove that other people are somehow defective so you can continue doing what you're doing but just in a more clever way - or so you think. (I say that because the "feelers" will smell that INTJ crap from a mile away.) I am saying this because you went for the "fascinating" books on NLP rather than the world renowned and PROVEN book by Carnegie. You will only continue to drive people away from you. Once again, here are the 2 basic points: 1) Most people are literally REPULSED by the INTJ tendency to solve problems. Some are also angered by it. 2) Most people want to have their feelings & perceptions acknowledged, and - in some cases - confirmed. If you want more people in your life, you will have to learn to turn that shit on and off at will. Good luck.

I ordered the Carnegie book too, it hasn't arrived yet. I totally agree with you on both points. I've learned them the hard way. I fully understand that in order to change my relationships with others I have to change myself first. And I've reached a point in my life where I'm ready to do it, it's just really hard to change behaviors and patterns that have been established for over 30 years.

---------- Post added 04-21-2012 at 09:11 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Nordman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LadySpock is right on target. Most people hate having their misconceptions about themselves challenged. They find even a hint of a question in that direction to be an insult, and react accordingly. The thing is that people such as me, and as our thread starter, see it as a kindness. Using our gift for problem solving to help the people we like see themselves more clearly. Basically you have a choice. Adapt, and accept the frustration of having close relations with whom you feel that you cannot be honest. Or befriend the few exceptions, the ones that value the kind of criticism people such as us is probe to deliver. They do exist, you see.

Nordman,

You hit the nail on the head when you said we use our problem solving skills as a way to help people. I've always looked at it like that and I'm just now learning that it's not how others see it. It annoys/ angers them, and turns them off. I have started to try and slow my thoughts down and practice active listening, and really try and see things from other points of view. Hopefully after a lot of practice I will be able to do it unconsciously.

[Nordman]

stephanystp,

I might simply be older than you, but I arrived at that conclusion years ago. And, like you seem about to do, I set out to learn how to interact ... and how to project myself as I wanted to be seen.

Turns out to be quite easy. Also turns out that it comes at a high cost, for me.

So I went back to having real friends, with whom I can be honest, only.

[Bronk]

	Originally Posted by Nordman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	stephanystp, I might simply be older than you, but I arrived at that conclusion years ago. And, like you seem about to do, I set out to learn how to interact ... and how to project myself as I wanted to be seen. Turns out to be quite easy. Also turns out that it comes at a high cost, for me. So I went back to having real friends, with whom I can be honest, only.

I, too, find this too high a price to pay most of the time. I feel like I'm being dishonest with myself by putting on a face for others to see, and it grates on my nerves. I'm sure my career "advancement" has been hindered by this. (Not that I mind since I enjoy my job too much to care about moving up the ladder. :D)