[rara avis]

I like the idea of having a family, but I also find it terrifying for the reasons you're explaining here. Yikes.

Maybe you need a two-fold plan, if you can manage it, where you can arrange to take one night a week away from the family- (I don't know what the childcare arrangements are, but if your wife is finding time to go out and socialize, I imagine it would be equitable for you to go out once in a while as well??)

One week, find a place to spend time alone.
The next week, take on any one of the suggestions for social interaction.

Maybe you could find some balance of energies by alternating this way?

For me, it would be difficult not being able to be alone in my own home, in my own space. I can't recharge the same way out in the world as I do when I'm able to den up on my own turf. But maybe something like this could do some good?

[TigerL]

Not married, no kids, only have had friends who are Es.

But, it sounds like your issues are somewhat typical of married couples in general with your "I" exacerbating it.

Have you considered getting occasional help to look after the kids so you and your wife have some time, either to spend with each other, or, more in your case, time you can spend alone individually?

Also, I'e encourage you to find guy friends outside of just your wife's circle, i.e. her friends' husbands. I think this will give you more psychological space.

The issue of making and maintaining guy friends while married also seems to be a common male issue. There's stuff out there concerning how men tend to rely on their wives as the main social support whereas married women still keep a group of girlfriends/ other social contacts typically.

Also: As much as kids deserve attention, some articles have also been written about how parents today often have their lives revolve around their kids rather than in prior decades, where kids were consider an important but not necessairily the center of adults' lives. Not being a parent, I don't know how to teach it but it wouldn't hurt to teach children, depending on their age, that parents deserve some alone time too.

[Valis]

	Originally Posted by Ilara To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The time between dinner and bedtime is usually fairly uneventful.

Yikes! Not in my house. Cleaning up the kitchen, helping with homework, playtime, story time... It's one of the busiest times in our house.

I get what you're saying though. Many nights I cook dinner. It's my creative outlet and a mostly solitary exercise. Used to be I took the bus back and forth to work. It was great. Instead of fighting rush hour traffic, I could read a book or listen to music every morning and evening. I usually arrived home refreshed. Circumstances don't allow that now.

The suggestions are appreciated. I wasn't expecting an easy solution. Mostly just looking to see if others struggled with the same issues.

[Ilara]

^There never seem to be any easy solutions, not really. Simple ones, often. Easy ones? Not so much.

It's more the principle than the specific time. It sounds like you need to find some recharge time. Good luck.

[Valis]

	Originally Posted by Solaris To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have an 11 month old valis. I'm an E. I totally understand a high intensity kid. My INTJ husband and I trade off with each other since I stay home with the baby. Can you just stay up a little later? It's what I do. Otherwise, I don't really get any uninterrupted time to do things.

I've claimed mornings. Usually up around 5am to get to the gym, read some news and get a head start on the day while everyone is still sleeping.

Those first couple of years are brutal. I dont envy you. We were at a 1 year olds birthday party this week. My wife and I both held this adorable little girl at different times. She asked me "does it make you want another one?" I said no and she quickly replied "me neither!"

---------- Post added 01-26-2011 at 10:05 PM ----------

Originally Posted by TigerL To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Not married, no kids, only have had friends who are Es. But, it sounds like your issues are somewhat typical of married couples in general with your "I" exacerbating it. Have you considered getting occasional help to look after the kids so you and your wife have some time, either to spend with each other, or, more in your case, time you can spend alone individually? Also, I'e encourage you to find guy friends outside of just your wife's circle, i.e. her friends' husbands. I think this will give you more psychological space. The issue of making and maintaining guy friends while married also seems to be a common male issue. There's stuff out there concerning how men tend to rely on their wives as the main social support whereas married women still keep a group of girlfriends/ other social contacts typically. Good insights and suggestions. Thanks. Also: As much as kids deserve attention, some articles have also been written about how parents today often have their lives revolve around their kids rather than in prior decades, where kids were consider an important but not necessairily the center of adults' lives. Not being a parent, I don't know how to teach it but it wouldn't hurt to teach children, depending on their age, that parents deserve some alone time too.

---------- Post added 01-26-2011 at 10:08 PM ----------

I Screwed that reply up Tiger. Good insights and suggestions. Particularly about the psychological space.

[SacrificialLove]

	Originally Posted by Valis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ilara, good catch on the "private retreat" issue. Te answer is "NO". I have no undisturbed place. Even trying to read and type these responses, I've been interrupted three times by the kids.

My husband doesn't, either.
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And I only recently discovered the value of closed, locked doors for INTJs. It just wasn't something that I even thought about. I mean, I even leave the door open when I'm in the bathroom, so that I can hear what's going on with the kids, LOL. I am a high-touch person who has very little need for alone time. Quiet time, yes, but not alone.

	Originally Posted by Valis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	For the younger crowd on here, don't underestimate the difficulty of living in a household with two small humans who need and deserve connection and affection from you but who have no understanding or respect for your personal space. Little kids don't get that you're an introvert.

Yes, exactly. (Even though I consider myself a member of the younger crowd, LOL, since I'm only 29 -- Am I delusional?
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)

We have 3 kids, ages 5, 3, and 6 months. The older two have speech delays, so in many ways, it's like the oldest is 2 years old and the middle child is 9-12 months old. It gets intense around here. I'm sure it's intense with kiddos who develop normally, too, I just wouldn't know, from first hand experience. Luckily, my oldest child is an introvert, like her daddy. She's quiet and enjoys playing by herself, but it's still kinda crazy for my INTJ. Heck, it's crazy for me sometimes.

I feel totally sad for him, when he expresses disappointment regarding his lack of patience with our children. He loves them so much, and I can see that it bothers him when he thinks he has a short fuse.

	Originally Posted by Valis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Many nights I cook dinner. It's my creative outlet and a mostly solitary exercise.

My husband is the chef of the family, too!

	Originally Posted by Valis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've claimed mornings. Usually up around 5am to get to the gym, read some news and get a head start on the day while everyone is still sleeping.

This is my INTJ's routine, as well. He loves being awake in the early mornings and doing his own thing when the house is nice and quiet. I recently instituted (or thought I instituted, LOL) a new rule that he absolutely must spend an hour each day, after work, doing something that he wanted to do. Go to Barnes & Noble and read. Go sit at the airport and watch planes. Anything that he wanted to do, to get time for himself. He's only done it once. I can't force it, but I still try to kick his bum into doing it.

I figure, I'm home all day with the kids, anyway; what's an extra hour? But I don't think I've convinced him yet that it's totally, 100% okay with me if he takes this time for himself. I think, in our particular situation, he also feels awful for me, or guilty taking time for himself, because I don't have any other stay-at-home mom friends outside of a small circle of internet-friends, and I don't get the opportunity to socialize very often. (ENFJ/P nightmare, right??? But I have hope that things will improve soon, and I could live off hope forever.)

Anyway... My husband lurks on this forum, so if he sees this thread, he'll figure out that I registered, LOL!!!!!!!! I was wondering how long I could poke around here before he came up to me and said, "Hey, 'Sacrificial Love.'"
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I'll be expecting that line any day now... Unless he decides to surprise me by registering and waiting until I figure him out, LOL. That could take awhile. I talk more than he does, and I volunteer far too much information.

[Valis]

Sacrificial....

29 is still young. 42 on the other hand, not so much. I was 29 when we got married. We have a ten year old and an almost 6 year old. The ten year old is highly gifted and started talking at a very early age and...... hasn't stopped yet that I can remember!

Our youngest is the introvert and it's been amazing seeing myself in him. I think it has helped my wife understand the drain of social interactions on introverts. He can do great for long stretches, but a play date with too many kids or one that goes on too long and he totally melts down. Then she generally looks my way and is like "oohhhh. Now I get it." But it's also helped me to understand how I frustrate her because there have been Saturday's when I've got him to myself and I try to get him to go to the zoo or the park or do something special and he's like "No. Let's just sit here in my room and play quietly with Legos."

I don't want to be guilty of giving out unsolicited advice, but as you recognize and encourage your husband's need for alone time, don't underestimate your need for social time. When she was home with our first child, my wife didn't know other stay at home mom's to hang out with. She got desperate after a while. A couple of times she was strolling through the neighborhood with the baby carriage and if she saw a yard that looked like it had a playhouse or little kids toys laying around, she'd leave a note on the door asking them to call her! By the time our second came along, she was firmly entrenched in a support group with tons of other stay at home parents. It made a huge difference in her mental health.

[SacrificialLove]

Originally Posted by Valis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I don't want to be guilty of giving out unsolicited advice, but as you recognize and encourage your husband's need for alone time, don't underestimate your need for social time. When she was home with our first child, my wife didn't know other stay at home mom's to hang out with. She got desperate after a while. A couple of times she was strolling through the neighborhood with the baby carriage and if she saw a yard that looked like it had a playhouse or little kids toys laying around, she'd leave a note on the door asking them to call her! By the time our second came along, she was firmly entrenched in a support group with tons of other stay at home parents. It made a huge difference in her mental health.

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We are moving soon, so I won't be stuck at home anymore. I'm all too familiar with those feelings of desperation. I know it's important for me to have my social time, too... It's just tough with small children sometimes, especially when they're still nursing. I definitely need some stay at home mom friends... Even if I have to put an ad in a church bulletin or something.
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Enjoy your weekend!

[Async]

Valis,
Your kids are not that young so they can self-entertain. I totally understand the guilt of not having patience for them, I have couple of children who are younger than yours. I don't socialize much, but I try to keep connections by making couple of phone calls now and then.
The thing about having quiet corner and time is to institute one. I make sure everyone knows this boundary. I even told the kids that I need some quiet time. For me, between 9 pm and my bedtime is golden time. I love my kids but I also want them to understand that not everything revolve around them.
This type of boundary setting is for everybody's mental health in my family. If I am not somewhat recharge then I won't be a patient parent.

p.s try to deal with squabble kids in the backseat every evening every.single.day after long day at work is no frigging fun.

[catzmeow]

	Originally Posted by Valis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No offense, but I'm not interested in spinning webs of manipulation, my work provides many plenty of intellectual challenges, And I'm not worried about my wife's fidelity. I would be interested in hearing if other intj husbands and fathers also struggle with maintaining relationships outside the family. Or if there are other types married to intjs who see their spouses struggling with isolation.

My guy is not terribly social. I have made multiple suggestions about times/places that he could socialize...I want him to have a life outside of our life together. Tell your wife what you're feeling, and maybe she can help make sure you have the time to do this.

My INTJ tends to want to watch sports and have a few beers with the guys....I don't know if your interests lie along those lines, but I think it's a form of interaction that doesn't require much, emotionally speaking.

[totoro]

Maybe you only think you need these relationships because your wife is so socially active?

I used to date an ENFP fellow and he never understood that I really didn't need that much social interaction. He needed constant socializing. I ended up feeling like I was not healthy and I should have more friends because he viewed it that way. I joined meet-up groups ect. and went and was social but it takes me about two years to make a good friend and I didn't really feel like spending my time on that.

The truth is that I got enough social interaction from my two long-standing best friends. I talk to one on the phone everyday as she doesn't live in the same town and we visit pretty regularly and plan a family vacation together every year. The other comes for brunch every second Sunday.

Other than that, I'm happy to be with just the kids, family members and my partner who is also an INTJ. I dislike having to spend time with people for "social" purposes alone unless they are in this select group. Glad to do it if it is for a work purpose and accomplishes something though.

Anyway, maybe you are good the way you are!

[Dynomutt]

I'm an INTJ married to an ENFP and we have two little daughters (2 years and 3 months). Your story is my story. I've done a fairly good job mitigating the need for social interaction through my career choice (event coordinator). Nonetheless, my social circle outside of work has shrank to next to zero since having children.