[sircockburn]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Discrimination against women appears to be making a comeback with the twenty-something set. It's disheartening to see, considering how hard the Feminist movement has worked to gain equality.

I agree. But I'm hoping this regressive countermovement will be a short-lived fad - initiated for the sake of being contrary to what's been accepted as "current" tradition (gender equality, in this case), rather than permanently shifting back.

[thod]

	To take an obvious example, the Catholic church doesn't allow women to serve as priests.

You should avoid religious examples. Whatever God says is correct. It is so simply because he is God. Your limited intellect cannot understand why, any more than an ant can understand quantum physics. You just have to accept it. With this is mind, Jesus chose only men to be his disciples. Thus it is God's will that only men should be priests. No argument can counter this, because you would always be arguing from your limited perspective. All we can do is follow the example Jesus gave us.

[Ray9]

Men discriminate against women, women disccriminate against men, adults discriminate against children, the young discriminate against the old, the thin discriminate against the fat, the tall discriminate against the short, the smart discriminate against the dumb, the pretty discriminate against the ugly. Do I need to go on? This is a natural process. The problems is society develop when government, composed of incompetent people, attempts to make the world fair. The world is already fair.

[qstoffe]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Discrimination against women appears to be making a comeback with the twenty-something set. It's disheartening to see, considering how hard the Feminist movement has worked to gain equality.

This was bound to happen sooner or later since society is trying to erase all gender differences even though women and men are very different in some ways. Take the dating world as an example. This is what a columnist wrote for a swedish newspaper:

Originally Posted by Columnist about dating sites

As a girl you have no problem with being contacted - the only requirement is that you have a profile and give the indication that you're a girl. More than that isn't really needed. Not even a presentation. It's sufficient with a profile picture and I'm not sure if even that is needed. The guys will email you in any case and court you in every way possible. Of course the girls get *excited*, who wouldn't want to be affirmed in that way? If you're a guy on the other hand, you will have to take matters into your own hands. You can not expect that the girls will contact you no matter how many photos you have or how well written your presentation may be. Nah, wake up people! There is much talk about equality in society, so why should it be any different in the dating world?

Now don't get me wrong. I think most people are very much for fair judgement such as equal pay for equal work etc. On the other hand; forcing gender "equality", and in only some areas, isn't exactly what I would call fair judgement.

[Moth]

	Originally Posted by qstoffe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This was bound to happen sooner or later since society is trying to erase all gender differences even though women and men are very different in some ways.

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The fact that you think that the phrase "very different" is accurate here really proves a point, but it's not yours. Humans are low on sexual dimorphism, and the differences that exist are average differences, which means that pretending every man or woman you meet has a man-or-woman cookie cutter brain is
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especially since those average differences tend not to be very great.

The dating world is a rather poor example. It's not perfectly comparable to other areas because of its being a focal point for social mores, which don't crumble over night, and also being the one arena in which some differences are likely to persist. Most of those that aren't cultural are just as probably the product
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as of differing instinct. If I'm less likely to orgasm, carry the cost of pregnancy and/or abortion, and am more likely to be called a slut or to have to explain to someone I asked out for coffee that I did mean coffee and not fellatio, obviously I'm going to be more cautious about sex and dating. It skews the market, but there's nothing mysterious lady-brain about it.

[appleseed123]

@at first, i responded to a criticizism by JTG, i merely pointed out that the criticizism was unwarranted due to being most likely wrong, then my response to plotthickens was not needed but the word 'self-evident' made it should like there is no possible way they were wrong (which i addressed in previous posts).
Also i didnt reject any ideas i saw as possible discrimination (ex: japan sex harassment), unlike what i believe isnt (media portrayed images). Im looking for areas to research, whether or not they back up my 'bias' doesn't matter.

@distance/nicloe, thanks, could you give me an example of the sexism to help start me out (excluding in the kitchen jokes)

[Nicole1975]

	Originally Posted by sircockburn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I agree. But I'm hoping this regressive countermovement will be a short-lived fad - initiated for the sake of being contrary to what's been accepted as "current" tradition (gender equality, in this case), rather than permanently shifting back.

I'm surprised to hear you say that as you've been vocal that you make sure to look the way men want women to look. The fad is here as long as women are going along with it and they are. If you voice wanting to be thought of as a person, instead of some dumb blow up doll, the men put women in their "place" by accusing them of being man-hating lesbians who don't shave their pits.

---------- Post added 02-13-2012 at 07:22 AM ----------

I have tried messaging guys. I've been told repeatedly not to do it. Men LIKE being the pursuers is what I keep hear and I'm taking away their job when I message them.

---------- Post added 02-13-2012 at 07:23 AM ----------

That goes with the quote from the columnist.

---------- Post added 02-13-2012 at 07:29 AM ----------

Originally Posted by appleseed123 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

@at first, i responded to a criticizism by JTG, i merely pointed out that the criticizism was unwarranted due to being most likely wrong, then my response to plotthickens was not needed but the word 'self-evident' made it should like there is no possible way they were wrong (which i addressed in previous posts). Also i didnt reject any ideas i saw as possible discrimination (ex: japan sex harassment), unlike what i believe isnt (media portrayed images). Im looking for areas to research, whether or not they back up my 'bias' doesn't matter. @distance, thanks, could you give me an example of the sexism to help start me out (excluding in the kitchen jokes)

There's sexism all over the place. Just read some of the things men are saying on this forum about women. Look at the thread about how men want a dumb woman. Men are over there saying all women are put on this earth to do is get pregnant and clean the house and that women are stupid and lower creatures. Certainly there are some ditzy bimbos out there. I see them out it in public places. You can hear their hollow heads when they do that ditzy giggling thing they do. However, not all women are like that and gasp, even some girls are pretty AND smart, but people only believe that when she's on TV.

---------- Post added 02-13-2012 at 07:33 AM ----------

Oh and it was me, NOT Distance who brought up the in the kitchen crap that's all over YT and Yahoo Answers-more so on YT, look up women shooting and you will see so many comments about it being a "weird ass looking kitchen." In the running forum on Answers, I sometimes see men telling women to just run in the kitchen, as a girl was told this when she was looking for advice on training for a marathon.

[Storm]

There are also ditzy men to go along with those ditzy women.

[appleseed123]

So far we have

sexual harassment (especially in Japan)
Small amount of youth being increasingly sexiest
Affirmative action (discrimination against men really)
Killing us softly (which mostly talks about women being sex objects in media)

Media portrayal of men being dumb
society pressures to be stay at home mom, and working dad
church, which im atheist so not really gonna study that
Dating (generally less favourable to men)

Then we have people saying most discrimination is unwarranted, and others basically laughing at them

[plotthickens]

Originally Posted by appleseed123 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

So far we have sexual harassment (especially in Japan) Small amount of youth being increasingly sexiest Affirmative action (discrimination against men really) Killing us softly (which mostly talks about women being sex objects in media) Media portrayal of men being dumb society pressures to be stay at home mom, and working dad church, which im atheist so not really gonna study that Dating (generally less favourable to men) Then we have people saying most discrimination is unwarranted, and others basically laughing at them

Rape
Date rape
"boys will be boys" allowing men to get away with what in women would be unacceptable
Machismo syndrome
Mariana syndrome
Honor killings
Acid-throwing
the "million missing women"
Child slavery
forced prostitution

[qstoffe]

Originally Posted by Moth To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. The fact that you think that the phrase "very different" is accurate here really proves a point, but it's not yours. Humans are low on sexual dimorphism, and the differences that exist are average differences, which means that pretending every man or woman you meet has a man-or-woman cookie cutter brain is To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. especially since those average differences tend not to be very great.

I see you tried very hard not to notice my bolded word "some".

	Originally Posted by Moth To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The dating world is a rather poor example. It's not perfectly comparable to other areas because of its being a focal point for social mores, which don't crumble over night, and also being the one arena in which some differences are likely to persist.

The dating world is a perfect example for the point I'm trying to make. Society is trying very hard to erase ALL gender differences. Even so much as hinting at a gender difference will get you shunned in society were I live. Sweeping all differences under the mat by ignoring or refusing to acknowledge them is exactly what I think is the cause for people getting confused and angry about feminism.

I say we drop the feminism. As you say some differences are likely to persist so it is "unhealthy" for a society to focus on total gender equality. A much better approach would be to focus on justice/fairness and leave gender outside such things.

[firebee]

	Originally Posted by qstoffe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The dating world is a perfect example for the point I'm trying to make. Society is trying very hard to erase ALL gender differences. Even so much as hinting at a gender difference will get you shunned in society were I live. Sweeping all differences under the mat by ignoring or refusing to acknowledge them is exactly what I think is the cause for people getting confused and angry about feminism.

And what about sweeping the differences among individuals under the rug by ignoring or refusing to acknowledge them, or by persistently and loudly yellin' that they specifically don't exist? Because from what I've seen, that's almost always the desired endgame for the "oh woe no appreciation of aaaaaaaalllllllll differences let's ditch the feminism" proposition.

[appleseed123]

	Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And what about sweeping the differences among individuals under the rug by ignoring or refusing to acknowledge them, or by persistently and loudly yellin' that they specifically don't exist? Because from what I've seen, that's almost always the desired endgame for the "oh woe no appreciation of aaaaaaaalllllllll differences let's ditch the feminism" proposition.

I believe (imo) that liberty comes into play here. Everyone has the right not be forced into marriage, having kids, etc. The difference would be social pressures to do so still exist, such as its bad to divorce. Just because there are social pressures, doesnt mean the person still cant have liberty (ie pressure to not divorce, but they still can).

Im not saying that social pressures (ex: women cant run as fast as men) isnt discrimination. Just that on average, society would pressure to do something else besides running against men (but not all the time). Its like risk/reward. One country has a history of default, so higher interest rates. That doesn't they will default thou, just society puts more pressure on not borrowing money (but they still can).

For example, society generally believes women are less physically fit than men (Olympics for example). But that doesn't mean they don't allow women to participate providing they are able to keep up. Doing so (not allowing women) is discrimination.

[Storm]

Everyone has a right to apply for a job. The fact that some employers are hesitant to hire you because of your sex is just not any big deal. They are completely justified in this belief because the top female athletes in the world run a few minutes slower than the top male athletes in the world.

^That is your argument.

[plotthickens]

Originally Posted by appleseed123 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I believe that liberty comes into play here. Everyone has the right not be forced into marriage, having kids, etc. The difference would be social pressures to do so still exist, such as its bad to divorce. Just because there are social pressures, doesnt mean the person still cant have liberty (ie pressure to not divorce, but they still can). For example, society generally believes women are less physically fit than men (Olympics for example). But that doesn't mean they don't allow women to participate providing they are able to keep up.

If concrete rules are all that you consider when discerning DISCRIMINATION, then go read lawbooks and stop wasting our time. Otherwise you have to take many kinds of pressure into account -- because discrimination comes in many forms... other than laws.

[appleseed123]

First off

My personal belief is that an employer can chose who they want to hire based on anything they want, including gender. This isn't moral, but i believe it should be their right, just like their right to decide who to have sex with (providing consent from other people).

But that doesnt mean its not discrimination. Just my opinion on the law thou.

"If concrete rules are all that you consider when discerning DISCRIMINATION, then go read lawbooks and stop wasting our time. Otherwise you have to take many kinds of pressure into account -- because discrimination comes in many forms... other than laws."

dis·crim·i·na·tion/disˌkriməˈnāSHən/
Noun:

The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
Recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.

Saying women cant run is discrimination. Saying you cant run is not. (if based on facts, not gender)
Saying the top women cant run as fast as the top men on average, is fact.

My opinion of discrimination. If a women cant keep up physical, its not discrimination. But basing the not hiring of women based on averages, is discrimination. I just dont think it should be illegal (totally different topic, and just my opinion)

[Moth]

	Originally Posted by qstoffe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I see you tried very hard not to notice my bolded word "some".

On the contrary, I merely took note of your typographically unmodified, epistemically unqualified word "very." Differences may exist, but they exist on average, and tend not to be all that significant.

	Society is trying very hard to erase ALL gender differences.

There's that word again.

	The dating world is a perfect example for the point I'm trying to make.

If differences in the dating world are partially cultural rather than only innate, and those innate differences are due to universally-human psychological response to physiological differences, in order for society to be "trying very hard" to erase them society would have to be widely promoting programs of physiological homogenization, which isn't happening, unless you want to count birth control (women don't have to get pregnant) and paternity tests (men are better able to verify parentage). Short of that, innate differences that exist are guaranteed to persist because they are innate, and you shouldn't worry about it.

What you see as society "trying very hard" to erase them seems to me to be some of society trying to discover which so-called differences are real by experimenting with culture and leveling base social circumstance. Since assertions of difference where it doesn't actually exist are likely to result in people placing unnecessary limitations on themselves and others, I don't know what harm it can do for humanity to check itself.

Beyond that, the point you appeared to be trying to make was that differences in the dating and sexual spheres are somehow evidence of differences elsewhere that are being covered up, which justifies backlash against feminist gains. As, again, such differences are partially cultural and otherwise direct results of people trying to make the best of the physiological features (reproductive organs) used to classify "men" and "women" in a way true of few other things, that is not so.

If I missed the point, please enlighten me.

	Sweeping all differences under the mat by ignoring or refusing to acknowledge them is exactly what I think is the cause for people getting confused and angry about feminism.

People are confused and angry about feminism because they won't take five minutes to read (and understand) the Wiki page.

	I say we drop the feminism. As you say some differences are likely to persist so it is "unhealthy" for a society to focus on total gender equality. A much better approach would be to focus on justice/fairness and leave gender outside such things.

It's perfectly healthy for a society to explore which differences actually exist, where they actually exist, and whether they're significant where they do exist. Unless such a skeptical approach is taken, unexamined prejudice and discrimination will inevitably perpetuate itself under the guise of reality.

The
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of equality given here are the ones that feminist discussions on gender equality typically use. They have everything to do with justice/fairness and none of them guarantee equality of outcome. It will be feasible to leave gender outside such things entirely when gender and, much more commonly these days, incorrect beliefs about it and the poor heuristic reasoning that results, are no longer a source of injustice, unfairness, and misunderstanding.

[Storm]

	Originally Posted by appleseed123 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My opinion of discrimination. If a women cant keep up physical, its not discrimination. But basing the not hiring of women based on averages, is discrimination. I just dont think it should be illegal (totally different topic, and just my opinion)

I said nothing about legality. I said it's an example of discrimination, and a bad one for society. Do you not agree?

[appleseed123]

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I said nothing about legality. I said it's an example of discrimination, and a bad one for society. Do you not agree?

Yes, it is an example of discrimination, but i did/do not believe the employer was justified/moral (which you said was my argument). Point i was trying to make is there are different areas of discrimination, legal, social, etc. Defining discrimination is important to debate, but debating whether or not certain things are discriminatory (ex: child marriage) is not the reason i posted this thread. Glad we can agree

[qstoffe]

	Originally Posted by Moth To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What you see as society "trying very hard" to erase them seems to me to be some of society trying to discover which so-called differences are real by experimenting with culture and leveling base social circumstance.

If it were only so well. Most assumes that there are no differences and so much as hinting at an biological gender difference and you're labled as a stupid bastard that are opposing women in general. Touchy subject.

Originally Posted by Moth To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Beyond that, the point you appeared to be trying to make was that differences in the dating and sexual spheres are somehow evidence of differences elsewhere that are being covered up, which justifies backlash against feminist gains. As, again, such differences are partially cultural and otherwise direct results of people trying to make the best of the physiological features (reproductive organs) used to classify "men" and "women" in a way true of few other things, that is not so.

Hold on. I never said a backlash was justified. I said it was understandable/to be expected. If the causes of the dating differences are cultural or biological isn't really the core issue. They are there today. Ignoring them as unimportant is ignorant/selective. People get confused and frustrated by this inconsistency.

---------- Post added 02-13-2012 at 11:11 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by appleseed123 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	For example, society generally believes women are less physically fit than men (Olympics for example). But that doesn't mean they don't allow women to participate providing they are able to keep up. Doing so (not allowing women) is discrimination.

Yes sports is a good example for why grouping of age, gender, divisions, etc is not all bad as opposed to looking at everyone as individuals. It's the "fairness" of the grouping that is interesting imo. Dismissing obvious unfair groupings as "it's individual" is a bit ignorant imo. That's just like looking at statistics showing that women earn less and dismissing it as "it's individual". Do short people earn less? Do immigrants earn less? If such groups are large enough then why dismiss one but not the other? In many instances women have been treated unjustly but that is no excuse to in the future dismiss other such groupings.

[zibber]

Originally Posted by qstoffe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This was bound to happen sooner or later since society is trying to erase all gender differences even though women and men are very different in some ways. Take the dating world as an example. This is what a columnist wrote for a swedish newspaper: [crying about dating sites] Now don't get me wrong. I think most people are very much for fair judgement such as equal pay for equal work etc. On the other hand; forcing gender "equality", and in only some areas, isn't exactly what I would call fair judgement.

<---

Yes.. Now. What kind of messages do women get? Generally? Long messages relevant to their profile? Hum? Or short, shallow messages? Well? Your longing to be in their shoes is exactly because you're a dude. You read about women being bombarded with short, shallow messages and think "damn! I wish women bombarded me with short & shallow messages!" Your complaining about this is a symptom of the fucking thing you're complaining about.

[Nicole1975]

I love that someone used the dating example. You want to go there? Ok, let's go there..

Women have to date what wants them, what they can attract. Men go after what they want. If women are single, they will be told by both men and women, "what? NO ONE wants you?" If men are single, it's assumed they are too busy for a relationship right now or something.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to date some disgusting piece of crap just because I'm a woman. I will only date men I actually want. I don't even want to date anymore because I've had too many men who insult me on a date and then somehow think I will actually go on a second date with them. Would I like to find someone? Yes. Will I be happy if I date something that wants me but I don't want it (him)? Not a chance. To be alone is better to be with one of these 60 year immigrants that barely speak English or whatever other crap wants me.

[thod]

	Women have to date what wants them, what they can attract.

So do men.

	Men go after what they want.

So do women. You are arguing that passivity is a female trait.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You are arguing that passivity is a female trait.

She's arguing that passivity is a socially-acceptable female trait and the social conventions around dating have developed as a result. To not play by the "women are passive" rules means one cannot even step into the arena; and one must play to win.

[catzmeow]

	Originally Posted by appleseed123 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	For example the pay gap is possible area of discrimination.

Much of the gap in pay is explained by differing professional priorities and educational attainment. In essence, it is largely mythical, in my experience. I've always earned as much or more than my male peers.