[thod]

	Also, I want me [the original] to persist.

Yet you know this can not be. Those who turtle up in fear of losing themselves become twisted parodies of what they envisage themselves to be. You are like Theseus' ship, constantly remade. Each remaking builds on the last yet destroys part of it too. It is an iterative process. Yet you will find generalities and rules so that over time you become wiser. When you reach the summit of whatever you are striving for, it is necessary to go down hill so that you can climb the next. You cannot sit on the peak of that hill, eventually you will become mad. From this you will find a new hill to climb.

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by Selene To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is it possible that the spiritual domain was just a cheap ploy to hustle reaction for OP?

Anything is possible.

Not likely though. I've exchanged PM's with the OP, have you ?

---------- Post added 01-31-2012 at 07:09 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Selene To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is it possible that the spiritual domain was just a cheap ploy to hustle reaction for OP? Precisely.

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This is why I would never use a teleporter. The person who comes out the other end is just a physical copy of you, and has all your memories, and actually believes that they were the original. While you, the original, was more or less disintegrated Marvin the Martian style. The movie The Prestige covered this.

And of Course the movie is scientifically rigorous to the degree to determine your choice on teleporter or not !! /sarcasm.

[Polymath20]

	And of Course the movie is scientifically rigorous to the degree to determine your choice on teleporter or not !! /sarcasm.

It featured Nikola Tesla - therefore it is rigorous enough for me!

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It featured Nikola Tesla - therefore it is rigorous enough for me!

Featured, whoa, that's a HIGH bar for a standard /sarcasm.

As someone who read all of Tesla biography's that were written by the late '80's I am curious as to what movie it was ?

[Sethis]

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Featured, whoa, that's a HIGH bar for a standard /sarcasm. As someone who read all of Tesla biography's that were written by the late '80's I am curious as to what movie it was ?

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I pretty much enjoyed it. Not really scientific of course.

[Polymath20]

But... what if your soul is clever enough to leave the recently disintegrated body and take up residence in the new body? What if another soul intercepts your body before your soul occupies it? How fast can souls travel?

These are questions that keep me up at night.

[NicholasIv]

A 1
B 2
C Choices don't encompass all possibilities, neither 1 nor 2.
(if a consciousness exists now and didn't exist in the past, then it has already been proven possible to create the identical consciousness, it is not a new consciousness it is an identical consciousness and there is nothing new about it, you could call it a more recent but if it differs in any way you've created a new consciousness that is not an identical copy and while also possible doesn't satisfy the restraints of the question.)

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But... what if your soul is clever enough to leave the recently disintegrated body and take up residence in the new body? What if another soul intercepts your body before your soul occupies it? How fast can souls travel? These are questions that keep me up at night.

If you soul is clever enough to take up residence in the new body, then congrats you beat the system.
If another soul intercepts your body before your soul occupies it you have a steal cage judo soul deathmatch, winner takes the body and an over sized belt with a large penis engraved into the buckle for when you leave your body to show off to the other souls.
Souls can travel and a blinding 23.7 miles per second at sea level.

[Polymath20]

Originally Posted by NicholasIv To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A 1 B 2 C Choices don't encompass all possibilities, neither 1 nor 2. (if a consciousness exists now and didn't exist in the past, then it has already been proven possible to create the identical consciousness, it is not a new consciousness it is an identical consciousness and there is nothing new about it, you could call it a more recent but if it differs in any way you've created a new consciousness that is not an identical copy and while also possible doesn't satisfy the restraints of the question.) If you soul is clever enough to take up residence in the new body, then congrats you beat the system. If another soul intercepts your body before your soul occupies it you have a steal cage judo soul deathmatch, winner takes the body and an over sized belt with a large penis engraved into the buckle for when you leave your body to show off to the other souls. Souls can travel and a blinding 23.7 miles per second at sea level.

Unfortunately this is far slower than the speed of light, which I assume is the speed at which teleportation signals would travel. Over short distances this would not be a problem, because the soul could still nearly instantly relocate to the new body. Over greater distances, though, there would be more time for opportunistic, predatory souls to make off with your mortal coil.

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by Sethis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I pretty much enjoyed it. Not really scientific of course.

errr, Sethis, thanks for the help but, ummm, you aren't Polymath20 who made the remark about 'featuring Tesla'.

Is this what's called 'featuring Tesla ?

	Robert "the Great Danton" Angier (Hugh Jackman) attempts a transporting trick that involves walking under a giant electrical machine with a Tesla coil and then disappearing through a trapdoor.

---------- Post added 02-02-2012 at 04:33 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But... what if your soul is clever enough to leave the recently disintegrated body and take up residence in the new body? What if another soul intercepts your body before your soul occupies it? How fast can souls travel? These are questions that keep me up at night.

Souls (more properly called, consciousness) travel instantaneously. They have no body/physical matter to encumber them.

For further context here's some additional information from a post I made in the
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'Attachments' in the book, are typically souls that have died unexpectedly and attach to a living person who happens to be readily available.

---------- Post added 02-02-2012 at 04:36 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Polymath20
	Unfortunately this is far slower than the speed of light, which I assume is the speed at which teleportation signals would travel

Why that assumption ?

Even the Remote Viewing experiments indicate RV took place instantaneously.

[Selene]

Originally Posted by NicholasIv To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A 1 B 2 C Choices don't encompass all possibilities, neither 1 nor 2. (if a consciousness exists now and didn't exist in the past, then it has already been proven possible to create the identical consciousness, it is not a new consciousness it is an identical consciousness and there is nothing new about it, you could call it a more recent but if it differs in any way you've created a new consciousness that is not an identical copy and while also possible doesn't satisfy the restraints of the question.) If you soul is clever enough to take up residence in the new body, then congrats you beat the system. If another soul intercepts your body before your soul occupies it you have a steal cage judo soul deathmatch, winner takes the body and an over sized belt with a large penis engraved into the buckle for when you leave your body to show off to the other souls. Souls can travel and a blinding 23.7 miles per second at sea level.

If you don't mind indulging OP's original question, can you please elaborate further? I'm asking because your comment IMO is one of the few worthwhile replies so far and I'm genuinely quite curious. Existing literature doesn't seem to answer much.

[RBM]

Originally Posted by NicholasIV

A 1 B 2 C Choices don't encompass all possibilities, neither 1 nor 2. (if a consciousness exists now and didn't exist in the past, then it has already been proven possible to create the identical consciousness, it is not a new consciousness it is an identical consciousness and there is nothing new about it, you could call it a more recent but if it differs in any way you've created a new consciousness that is not an identical copy and while also possible doesn't satisfy the restraints of the question.)

Well I'm not sure that anything has been proven . The OP seems to be pushing his own understanding envelope so I'd call it orderly chaos of speculation.

According to the explorers who have actually been to where consciousness is 'created', such as Robert Monroe, the OP has a ways further to push on his envelope.

Good Luck OP !

[NicholasIv]

Consciousness is a four dimensional construct that as a whole requires the previous content to be completely defined, but the part of this object we can interact with is current and moving forward. To the observer an identical consciousness can be created, but four dimensionally you can only ever create something that is identical from this point forward. Are you considering the object at it's current state as being replicable(1), at it's current and future states(2), or at it's current future and past states(3)? If the first two are the only ones relevant to discussion without being able to manipulate prior events, yes you can duplicate a consciousness.

The reason we are able to duplicate a consciousness in the first two cases are, every interaction that makes up the content that makes up the consciousness are subject to the same laws, very similar to the philosophical view tabula rasa, all things being equal given the same experiences the same result will take place, which includes toxins, hormonal imbalances, injuries, lack of oxygen or a surplus at pivotal developmental moments etc.

Along with the fact that anything that has already happened Can happen, and the sum of all forces on an object are equivalent to a single force, we can conclude that we can create a mind with an identical consciousness to another up to a point X (in theory - we don't actually have this technology) and we can create this identical consciousness at an accelerated rate. That only brings us up to (1), in order for (2) to be possible we would additionally be required to maintain identical new content to each consciousness, and for (3) again, ability to modify prior events. Further evidence (2) is possible is, if one consciousness is being exposed to new content, then at that given time it is absolutely true that a consciousness can be exposed to that identical content.

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Over greater distances, though, there would be more time for opportunistic, predatory souls to make off with your mortal coil.

I believe this is the single greatest threat to our world today.

[SirJac]

In my understanding, I would call the content the state of consciousness and continuity the evolution from one state to the next. Using this in the first scenario, joining of two minds would result in a high degree of coupling between the two (the future state of one would not depend just on it's current state, but also the current state of the other). Once coupled it would become impossible to isolate the state of one and destroy it. If you attempted to, what remained would a hybrid, carrying degrees of both, though the period between the joining and the seperation would result in the creation of new content that cannot be described as belonging to one or the other which would also be present.

In the second scenario, the answer would depend on whether the state of the consciousness once it was "turned on" again depends on the state before it was turned off or is independant of the previous state. Continuity only requires that each state is determined by an evolution from the previous state, the time between states does not matter. If the new state depends on the previous state, continuity is preserved and the consciousness is the same as it was before it was turned off. If it does not, then it is a new consciousness.

For the third scenario, I think the attempt to copy the state of a consciousness would alter it's state, in which case the state of each mind after the process would be slightly different not just from each other but also from the original. This could be thought of as a divergence in the evolution to future states though, producing two different minds. However, you would not be able to identify one as the original and the other as the copy, since neither would be the same as the original had no copying been done.

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by SirJac
	I would call the content the state of consciousness and continuity the evolution from one state to the next.

Hmmm, that has a nice 'feel' to it and a logical progression that appeals to me.

[NicholasIv]

Originally Posted by SirJac To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

In my understanding, I would call the content the state of consciousness and continuity the evolution from one state to the next. Using this in the first scenario, joining of two minds would result in a high degree of coupling between the two (the future state of one would not depend just on it's current state, but also the current state of the other). Once coupled it would become impossible to isolate the state of one and destroy it. If you attempted to, what remained would a hybrid, carrying degrees of both, though the period between the joining and the seperation would result in the creation of new content that cannot be described as belonging to one or the other which would also be present. In the second scenario, the answer would depend on whether the state of the consciousness once it was "turned on" again depends on the state before it was turned off or is independant of the previous state. Continuity only requires that each state is determined by an evolution from the previous state, the time between states does not matter. If the new state depends on the previous state, continuity is preserved and the consciousness is the same as it was before it was turned off. If it does not, then it is a new consciousness. For the third scenario, I think the attempt to copy the state of a consciousness would alter it's state, in which case the state of each mind after the process would be slightly different not just from each other but also from the original. This could be thought of as a divergence in the evolution to future states though, producing two different minds. However, you would not be able to identify one as the original and the other as the copy, since neither would be the same as the original had no copying been done.

I disagree that it would be impossible to differentiate between two minds once intertwined in the way you proposed, you could look at it's current state and work backwards to all possible previous states giving the parent consciousness parts, this could be done in different ways because off all possibilities either there are only the parent parts as viable solutions to the problem, possibly other non viable mathematical solutions (they give an answer that is true, but doesn't create a viable consciousness), there are other viable consciousness parents that could lead to this identical child consciousness (either one or both of the other possible consciousness parents in this situation are viable, and by comparison to a known value for the original consciousness we could identify the original parent) or there is only one possibility of the actual original consciousness. (the process of working backwards in this way is similar to the quadratic equation in a two dimensional plane, but we would be solving for several billion parts in a four dimensional plane and it would require a much more complete understanding of physics and consciousness than we have today)*(Basically this is stating that of all possible formulas that lead to a combined consciousness, either the solution will be wrong, will not be a viable consciousness, will be a viable consciousness and an nonviable consciousness, will have many possible parent combinations, or will have only the original parent combinations. Solving for this problem will lead to all of these answers not just one, unless the only one solution is the original parents)

The problem that we get is given the nature and individuality of consciousness, it is unlikely two consciousness parents could be merged into a viable consciousness, even given the near zero possibility there are enough possible outcomes left that there is still nearly unlimited number of child consciousness from parent pairs that are viable. Of any viable child there may be an unlimited number of possible viable parents and without a previous example to compare we wouldn't know which one was possible, very similar to DNA, every unique individual has their own DNA and by decoding and comparing this DNA we can identify the parents, but for any given DNA there are nearly limitless possibilities of parent DNA combinations that lead to that specific result but many of those possibilities wouldn't form a human with the ability to reproduce, of them some may not be able to form due to developmental issues from abnormal DNA, some of them may have a viable and a non viable solution, and some of them may have viable solutions that happen to be not the actual solution for the parents DNA.

A viable consciousness is something with the properties of a consciousness that functions and can meet the requirements to be able to continue, an invalid consciousness would have the properties of a consciousness and would either not be able to continue (be static) or be unable to continue from point of creation on, or would be able to continue but for a very short time before expiring, both of these are likely to be caused by redundant necessary functions required for the parents to be viable, that interact in a way that interferes with their function. The reason this problem exists is the nature of consciousness, as it is very difficult and impossible to randomize, a new consciousness has to begin basically and develop systematically through necessity and exposure.