[labrarotta]

I've been 6 months in a relationship with ISTP-man. I would say this was the "love at first sight" -situation when we start dating. Our start was absolutely passionate and wonderful! But, after about one month dating, I noticed that he has a very self-dependent style to think and thus to interact. He lives so eagerly in the past, and is very stubborn in his thoughts, especially on his views of his personal freedom. He has his own rules and he doesn't care if he hurts somebody, because he thinks he can do anything and nobody can't restrain him.

Although he's very independent, he wants to spend a LOT of time with me. Well, as an INTJ I'm also highly intependent and need my own space to relax and contemplate things, but my boyfriend takes it personally when I say this to him. He is a "to be or not to be" -type, very black-and-white, and seems to be incapable to think things in several perspectives. This is so frustrating because we all know, that sometimes in this life, we need to be flexible and, at least, try to consider other's feelings.

I'm very loving person - in my own way. I truly respect my ISTP, knowing that he's more spontaneous than I. I'm more interested in scientific and abstract concepts than he is, and sometimes my intense lectures clearly irritates him. He also complains that I rather speak than touch - while he is extremely sensing and want's to be physically close.

We have had many fights and I've suggested to separate. I can't make any sense of his true, inner desires. He doesn't see problems in there where I see, but thinks I am the problem with my "woo woo" -thoughts and values. When I ask something personal (which is significant for knowing others feelings, desires etc.), he simply denies everything or switches the subject. I can't make up any connections between us!

Help? Experiences?
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[Dru]

you don't sound right for each other.

while it's nice that you had something fantastic at the beginning, it seems to be fizzling out. there are three fundamental components to successful relationships: compromise, chemistry, and communication. typically people can make relationships work when they're lacking one of these qualities, though those tend to be somewhat dysfunctional relationships, but yours seems to be lacking all of them.

aside from what you want; what do you think?

[Zsych]

Accept that this simple person is what he is and he doesn't have much intellectual or emotional depth, and whatever forms the basis of his excessive independence isn't worth dealing with?

I'd just say that it takes time to understand someone who won't open up. Anyway, do what you think is best. Try to negotiate something where you both get more of what you want - if he cares about the relationship, he should be willing to do it.

[Monte314]

He is willing to be close to you... on his terms. Your desires, feelings... perhaps even your personhood... are seen by him as obstacles to the relationship he wants.

But that's not a healthy relationship; that's you being an adjunct to the world he is sculpting around himself.

It doesn't sound like this is what you are looking for. And you already know in your heart that he is not going to change. Right?

[labrarotta]

Thanks for your replies!

It takes so much time for me to write these posts, and therefore I forgot to tell some perhaps significant issues ... I know this relationship sounds horrible and unhealthy. I think he'd slightly understood my aspects. He said he's too passionate and have nothing else but me in his life at this moment. He's very introverted and, in fact, has no friends here in South-Finland (he's from East). He told that he need to meet new people and figure interesting hobbies. I am his whole life. Maybe he is very sensitive to rejection? Anyhow, he is very insecure..

[Dru]

yeah, i maintain my opinion that you're not right for each other.

[Monte314]

It sounds as though he believes he needs you. He certainly needs someone.

So: Is that a good foundation for a lasting relationship? And, what about what you need?

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by labrarotta To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Anyhow, he is very insecure..

That sounds like a problem. Although understandable if you're his only friend. My suggestion is still to negotiate. Be open and honest (and not hurtful), and let him know that he can be open and honest, and that you are being fair. He needs to see that you both need to get what you want from the relationship, or you need to look elsewhere (or at least, change the nature of the relationship)

[Dru]

could be she's his only friend because he's insecure. impulsive/spontaneous, simplistic perspective, self-centered behavior - yeah, sounds like he just needs some buddies to cheer him up. that'll make everything peachy.
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rather he sounds like he needs to do a lot of maturing.

[ManWithNoName]

	Originally Posted by labrarotta To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	He told that he need to meet new people and figure interesting hobbies. I am his whole life. Maybe he is very sensitive to rejection? Anyhow, he is very insecure..

You shouldn't be his whole life nor should you be responsible for 'fixing' him or getting his life in order. It sounds like he just dosn't want to conform to much in general and this may be fuled by his insecurity. Unfortunatly I find most people like this only change when they become miserable and so are forced to do so.

[labrarotta]

I appreciate all of your answers. Zsych, thank you very much! Negotiate is "the thing" and tomorrow I would have a word with my mate. We've had many discussions and though he's negative I believe that something I say affects him. My own cognition goes like a speed of light and he's... well, slow. My problem is that I get very tense if somebody doesn't understand what I say. And when I get nervous, all goes wrong..
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[Distance]

From what I've seen of ISTPs, they rarely have many if any friends. They're in the moment oriented with physical activity being of great importance. Consider their cognitive function order of Ti, Se, Ni, Fe. Se most often will be their information gatherer which means right here, right now information. Ti takes in the information and creates a framework of a now logical picture.

When in crisis or under stress their ESTJ shadow appears which means Te, Si, Ne, Fi but of the whacked out variety. I won't bore you with the archetypes but he'll be over-controlling with Te and fixated on the past with Si.

Now try to match this with the INTJ cognitive functions and shadow ENTP and you have a difficult relationship.

Him = in the moment, surface level action oriented. Crazy controlling and fixated on the past when under stress.

You = cerebral, intuitive symbolic thinking but also controlling with Te as your secondary function. Take into consideration shadow Ne, Ti acting like a shit disturber and, and, and...you get the picture.

[labrarotta]

I broke up with this *hole right before Christmas. In my opinion I think this guy isn't a very good representative of ISTP's - I just think he's a selfish, clingy wretch with a huge lack of empathy and incapable to consider other persons feelings. I'm very glad I left this unhealthy relationship...!

[intjistp]

	Originally Posted by labrarotta To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I broke up with this *hole right before Christmas. In my opinion I think this guy isn't a very good representative of ISTP's - I just think he's a selfish, clingy wretch with a huge lack of empathy and incapable to consider other persons feelings. I'm very glad I left this unhealthy relationship...!

Normally they get better by time and experience. But I must say they are not stupid. They cannot read books or even manuals but they can internally understand structure of any device and draw it down later. They are good with instruments, good for judo etc. They might be fun although very unpolite which they notice afterwards which they cannot cope. They are lousy leaders unless you want someone to take over a cavalry charge.

You just have to make them understand other's point of view and make them to communicate.
This is not easy to do.

[Ghostwheel]

Originally Posted by intjistp To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Normally they get better by time and experience. But I must say they are not stupid. They cannot read books or even manuals but they can internally understand structure of any device and draw it down later. They are good with instruments, good for judo etc. They might be fun although very unpolite which they notice afterwards which they cannot cope. They are lousy leaders unless you want someone to take over a cavalry charge. You just have to make them understand other's point of view and make them to communicate. This is not easy to do.

Agree with much of this ... except that I knew an ISTP that was a voracious reader. He would read the Wall Street Journal cover to cover, as well as novels like Firefox and Hunt For Red October. He gave me his collection of mass market paperbacks many years ago, there must have been a hundred spy novels and thrillers in there. All worn through and read; nothing new and unused. He read alright.

So they can be very big readers, but what they choose to read may be different from what Intuitors read.

My take on relationships is that Sensor-Intuitor matches are way more difficult than Sensor-Snsor and Intuitor-Intuitor matches. That one function seems to be the biggest difference between people. With mature personalities and lots of hard work, I guess you can make any pairing functional. By why struggle so hard if there are other options?

That said, having an ISTP friend can work out well for us INTJs. They're perceptive, keep their own space, respect yours, accept people's faults, and can be funny and irreverent.

Just don't make them angry. You wouldn't like them when they're angry.
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[blackLieutenant]

	Originally Posted by labrarotta To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I broke up with this *hole right before Christmas. In my opinion I think this guy isn't a very good representative of ISTP's - I just think he's a selfish, clingy wretch with a huge lack of empathy and incapable to consider other persons feelings. I'm very glad I left this unhealthy relationship...!

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This is actually (and sadly) how ISTPs works and are. You already knew that he was ISTP anyway, what did you expect ? The romantic type that cares about everybody's feelings ?!

You were very lucky to know his MBTI type, you had weapons to make the relationship work.

ISTPs usually date women that are supportive and accept us as we are. You couldn't obviously do this.

[JTG]

They say INTJ is the most independent type. ISTP is the most aloof.

Personal space and time alone are golden to the ISTP, who trades INTJ's Fi (what is right) for their own Fe (how i feel). This means one of the key differences between the two is that the INTJ, while very independent, is more likely to look at the big picture, emotionally. They're more likely to sacrifice for the sake of emotional correctness, while an ISTP who's feeling reclusive needs to get away and doesn't feel bad about doing so.

If you find this irreconcilable with your own standards for how you wish to be treated or how a relationship should be, then it may be best to find somebody who will make you happier in the long run. One-sided sacrifice and effort is a recipe for disaster

[labrarotta]

blackLieutenant, I didn't know that he's an ISTP when I met him. I took the MBTI and then persuaded him to do it. And I didn't wait for or want a romantic and feeling person, I just ask for mutual relationship which contains respect and interest to other's feelings and desires, even a bit.. But my ex is absolutely uncapable to negotiate. We tried it many times and I finally left him because I can't stand that huge feeling of being always misunderstood. I feel I worked so much, for nothing.

---------- Post added 12-29-2011 at 01:36 AM ----------

And how could I treat him as he is, if he couldn't treat me the same way? I actually tried but he didn't put very much effort to understand me and my way of thinking. I understand that he has his own things and habits but his behaviour sounds rather a personality disorder than ISTP-quality.

[blackLieutenant]

Originally Posted by labrarotta To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

blackLieutenant, I didn't know that he's an ISTP when I met him. I took the MBTI and then persuaded him to do it. And I didn't wait for or want a romantic and feeling person, I just ask for mutual relationship which contains respect and interest to other's feelings and desires, even a bit.. But my ex is absolutely uncapable to negotiate. We tried it many times and I finally left him because I can't stand that huge feeling of being always misunderstood. I feel I worked so much, for nothing. ---------- Post added 12-29-2011 at 01:36 AM ---------- And how could I treat him as he is, if he couldn't treat me the same way? I actually tried but he didn't put very much effort to understand me and my way of thinking. I understand that he has his own things and habits but his behaviour sounds rather a personality disorder than ISTP-quality.

No, I'm ISTP. What you said is exactly what I heard from my exs. And I know how INTJ women are. You're not an easy cake either. "he didn't put very much effort to understand me and my way of thinking" sounds very selfish too. Did you, try to understand him ? ISTPs like to independent and are self-absorbed. We don't like to talk about our deepest feelings/emotions.
Even though we're like this, ISTPs don't like mysteries. Be honest and clear with your thoughts and feelings. If you do, the ISTP might open in the future. We prefer sensing, touch instead of talking, yes. If you were a good girlfriend, you would've understand that, and maybe try to be more open-minded with that.

You wanted to impose him your INTJ-style, he didn't like it probably. ISTPs are very arrogant and thinks that it's already a gift that he's dating you (we're giving up our independancy), and that you shouldn't ask him no more shit, and that he does what he wants. If you happen to date an other ISTP in the future, know that you'll have to give more than you'll receive.

ISTPs are loosely the lonely and silent cowboy/rider stereotype. The groupies-like women are the ones that have the more success with us, because it involves less work, and a lot of love for us. It's kinda unfair but it's true.

[Haumea]

I think the odds of an ISTP man-INTJ woman match working out are on the low side.

ISTP men are better off finding an ESFJ woman. My parents have been married for 44 years, and I doubt very much it would have worked out were she any other type.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by labrarotta To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I broke up with this *hole right before Christmas. In my opinion I think this guy isn't a very good representative of ISTP's - I just think he's a selfish, clingy wretch with a huge lack of empathy and incapable to consider other persons feelings. I'm very glad I left this unhealthy relationship...!

You made the right choice and ditched the asshole. Not all ISTPs are the same. As previously stated, they're either awesome or bat shit lunatics. If you're looking for examples of awesome ISTPs, you might want to stalk either JTG's or Amphorian's (even though she's female) posts to get a better idea of what more mentally and emotionally balanced and intelligent ISTPs look like.

[labrarotta]

Originally Posted by blackLieutenant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No, I'm ISTP. What you said is exactly what I heard from my exs. And I know how INTJ women are. You're not an easy cake either. "he didn't put very much effort to understand me and my way of thinking" sounds very selfish too. Did you, try to understand him ? ISTPs like to independent and are self-absorbed. We don't like to talk about our deepest feelings/emotions. Even though we're like this, ISTPs don't like mysteries. Be honest and clear with your thoughts and feelings. If you do, the ISTP might open in the future. We prefer sensing, touch instead of talking, yes. If you were a good girlfriend, you would've understand that, and maybe try to be more open-minded with that. You wanted to impose him your INTJ-style, he didn't like it probably. ISTPs are very arrogant and thinks that it's already a gift that he's dating you (we're giving up our independancy), and that you shouldn't ask him no more shit, and that he does what he wants. If you happen to date an other ISTP in the future, know that you'll have to give more than you'll receive. ISTPs are loosely the lonely and silent cowboy/rider stereotype. The groupies-like women are the ones that have the more success with us, because it involves less work, and a lot of love for us. It's kinda unfair but it's true.

Well I know I'm not an easy cake either
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I'm very knowledgeable about my difficulties and pros. But though I'm not the easiest personality on planet, I can negotiate and at least try to put myself in other persons boots. This may take a bit of time, but the feedback I've had from my behaviour is mostly positive.

But my ex: what I'm trying to say is that he couldn't manage normally in certain intimate relationship. Probably you think I didn't pay regard to his personality (type) and tried to change his mindset more INTJ one, but this isn't true. I want to emphasize: in a relationship you have to be able to do compromises in your behaviour towards your partner. It's absolutely wrong to be a freeloader, even in these interesting ISTP-INTJ cases.

If you are so convinced you ISTPs are that arrogant and self-centered, you probably should understand why other people have these kind of difficulties with you.

---------- Post added 12-29-2011 at 01:53 PM ----------

Dealing with my ex reminds me of my aunt when I was a kid. We were at ice cream kiosk and she said: "Just pick anything you want but take the cheapest one!"

[oddi]

He sounds like my ex husband istp. They are fun and sexy in the beginning but then turn into flakey rebellious teen boys. Run!

[Clarity]

Ha ha!! Wow, I thought you were talking about my marraige!! Yes,... I married my ISTP. My golly I love him to pieces but nine out of ten times, I have to be the one to step into his way of thinking and just let him think we are on the same page because the truth is, I can but they are incapable of operating on an INTJ wavelength. This, has been my only major gripe (and I mean MAJOR). It is very, very frustrating when no matter how you explain, you are met with misunderstanding. But hey, guess I should be used to that now after years of thinking I was on the wrong planet.

An ISTP is alot of work and if you dont genuinly love him and make sacrifices, you will wear yourself out.

[Thinktress]

My SO is an ISTP. I can relate to a couple of things you said, but not at all to clinginess. In fact, he is the least clingy person I know probably. Works well in that regard because we both need our space. Mine to study whatever on my computer, and his to go do whatever foolhardy things ISTPs like to do.

Anyway, this doesn't sound like its just about different personality types. There's a reason he's so needy, and that may not work for you. Also, ISTPs like to talk about their feelings about as much as INTJs. But usually they will let you into their thoughts and desires and manner of thinking if they care about you.

---------- Post added 12-29-2011 at 10:19 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Clarity To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My golly I love him to pieces but nine out of ten times, I have to be the one to step into his way of thinking and just let him think we are on the same page because the truth is, I can but they are incapable of operating on an INTJ wavelength. This, has been my only major gripe (and I mean MAJOR).

I also feel exactly this way. I love my ISTP. ADORE him. And he grounds me because I get way too far up in my head. But. He can't go to all of my places with me. It doesn't make sense to him and it's just irritating for him when I yammer on about things that he doesn't think are relevant to the here and now. And he has very strong opinions because they are based on his OWN perceptions. So I go along with him most of the time. And then I come here if I really need to theorize.

Also though, he puts up with a lot with me. I can be very high strung and he is rock steady. He doesn't get offended when I'm paranoid, he just brings me back down to earth. And when he met me, I had gone through a very bad thing, and I was afraid to even leave the house. He's the one who got me back into the sunshine again. And I see him do things that are out of his comfort zone, just for me. And I find that very touching. He's very private, but he will tell me things just so that I feel comfortable and so that I have information. Its as though he's studied me and he does things just to make me feel comfortable and happy. He does this even when I know it goes against his grain. That means a lot to me.